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ecassidy
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| Joined: | Thu Mar 22nd, 2007 |
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| First Name: | Gene | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Catholic to evangelical Protestant to evangelical Catholic |
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Posted: Thu Mar 6th, 2008 07:06 pm |
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Hi all,
I am sorry if I offended anyone by saying minister instead of priest. I wrote it that way because I know that the Church does not recognize Episcopal holy orders so, in effect, they do not have a valid priesthood. Am I correct in saying this?
Now here is my real question: Are Episcopal ministers/priests given preferential treatment when being received into the Catholic Church and ordained as Catholic priests?
I have some more questions but I'll stop here and wait for replies.
Again, no offense meant in the way I wrote this.
Peace,
Gene
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Dave Armstrong
Network Apologist
| Joined: | Fri Nov 2nd, 2007 |
| Location: | Melvindale, Michigan USA |
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| First Name: | Dave | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Evangelical (1977): Diverse Protestant Influences / Catholic in 1990 |
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Posted: Thu Mar 6th, 2008 10:22 pm |
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Hi Gene,
I'm not sure what you mean by "preferential."
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CajunRick
Network Helper
| Joined: | Fri Sep 29th, 2006 |
| Location: | Houma, Louisiana USA |
| Posts: | 5349 |
| First Name: | Rick (& Kermie) | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Lifetime Catholic, Latin Rite |
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Posted: Fri Mar 7th, 2008 02:48 am |
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ecassidy wrote: I am sorry if I offended anyone by saying minister instead of priest. I wrote it that way because I know that the Church does not recognize Episcopal holy orders so, in effect, they do not have a valid priesthood. Am I correct in saying this?
They are not recognized as Catholic priests, but ministers of some other faiths call their ministers "priests" too. The priesthood is well established among Jews in the Old Testament, and Buddhists refer to priests, and no doubt others do as well.
Now here is my real question: Are Episcopal ministers/priests given preferential treatment when being received into the Catholic Church and ordained as Catholic priests?
RCIA calls for all baptized Christians to be evaluated individually and judged according to the level of preparation needed to bring them into the Church, so by virtue of their education and ordination as Anglican/Episcopal priests, they might be fast-tracked into the Church, or if they are of a liberal bent (in favor of abortion, contraception, gay marriage and lesbian bishops, for example) it might even take them longer to become Catholic.
They must receive the sacraments of initiation (Eucharist and Confirmation) just like anyone else coming into the Church. After joining the Church, they must petition the bishop of their diocese for admission to the priesthood under the "Pastoral Provision". The bishop will petition the Vatican and, once that is grated, will determine what preparation is necessary before they can be ordained to the Catholic priesthood. In one case I am familiar with, the priest was required to attend classes for one year prior to his ordination. Each case is handled differently.
I'm not sure I would call that "preferential treatment". In one way it is preferential since I as a married man am not allowed to become a priest while he may be, but on the other hand he has left his ministry and his job, been forced to find another way to earn a living after becoming Catholic, and then find a way to support his family while attending whatever classes the bishop requires of him. It's a very hard road to take, and requires a serious commitment on the part of the priest.
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Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
Luquette Lane
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ecassidy
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| Joined: | Thu Mar 22nd, 2007 |
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| First Name: | Gene | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Catholic to evangelical Protestant to evangelical Catholic |
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Posted: Fri Mar 7th, 2008 03:11 pm |
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Hi Rick and Dave,
Now I can refine my question a little.
Is the “Pastoral Provision” for former Episcopal ministers only, or can it apply to Lutheran, Methodist and Presbyterian ministers who become Catholic, are married, and wish to enter the priesthood?
If it is for former Episcopal ministers only, then I don't understand why since the Church doesn't recognize the Anglican Communion as having valid holy orders. If they didn't have valid holy orders, then they weren't part of the priesthood so why then have a Pastoral Provision?
Again, I don't mean any offense to any former Episcopal priest by the bluntness of my writing.
Peace,
Gene
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BeProf
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| First Name: | Ed | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Independent Fundamental Baptist - Atheism - Christian & Missionary Alliance |
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Posted: Fri Mar 7th, 2008 04:54 pm |
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ecassidy wrote:
Is the “Pastoral Provision” for former Episcopal ministers only, or can it apply to Lutheran, Methodist and Presbyterian ministers who become Catholic, are married, and wish to enter the priesthood?
The Pastoral Provision is only for Anglican Priests but married ministers of other Protestant denominations can be ordained as Priests. The process is different for them however and appears to still be relatively unknown.
ecassidy wrote:
If it is for former Episcopal ministers only, then I don't understand why since the Church doesn't recognize the Anglican Communion as having valid holy orders. If they didn't have valid holy orders, then they weren't part of the priesthood so why then have a Pastoral Provision?
The Anglican Church is unique among "Protestant" denominations in that it has valid Apostolic Succession through the Archbishop of Canterbury.
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ecassidy
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| Joined: | Thu Mar 22nd, 2007 |
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| First Name: | Gene | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Catholic to evangelical Protestant to evangelical Catholic |
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Posted: Fri Mar 7th, 2008 05:45 pm |
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Thanks BeProf,
The Catholic Church, as far as I know, does not recognize the Anglican Communion as having valid Apostolic Succession, and therefore, no valid Holy Orders and no valid priesthood.
If I am not mistaken, when King Henry 8 split the Church in England away from Rome, the Church DID consider the Church of England to be a "sister church." But this ended when they changed their doctrine to Protestant.
Peace,
Gene
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BeProf
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Posted: Fri Mar 7th, 2008 07:22 pm |
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I checked my facts and you're right. Generally, Anglican Bishops are not seen as having valid succession, but if one can show that he has unbroken succession only under the "old" rite, then he can be considered as having valid succession. The best you can say is that an Anglican Bishop *may* have valid succession but proving it is very hard.
My apologies.
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CajunRick
Network Helper
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Posted: Sat Mar 8th, 2008 02:15 am |
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ecassidy wrote: Is the “Pastoral Provision” for former Episcopal ministers only, or can it apply to Lutheran, Methodist and Presbyterian ministers who become Catholic, are married, and wish to enter the priesthood?
The Pastoral Provision was originally established for Episcopal priests in the United States who were interested in joining the Catholic Church with their congregations. In several cities in the United States, Episcopal priests and nearly all of their congregations joined the Catholic Church en masse. There is no established rule indicating how to handle such an event, and so the bishops petitioned Pope John Paul II for a procedure by which to handle this unusual event, and the Pastoral Provision was the result. It has happened before, such as when certain Eastern Orthodox congregations decided to reunite with Rome and became the Eastern Catholic Churches, but the circumstances were a little different as the priests of those congregations were recognized as having valid orders.
The provision was later broadened, again in response to a request from the bishops, to cover individual Episcopal priests who wished to exercise their ministry in the Catholic Church even though they were married, and to ministers of a few other faiths (primarily Methodist, Lutheran, and Presbyterian, if I remember correctly) but the hurdle for them is higher because their churches are doctrinally farther away from the Catholic faith. It has also been extended to clergy in European countries in a few isolated cases.
You can read more about the Pastoral Provision at it's official web site. You can read more about the congregations that have entered the Church through the Pastoral Provision at the web site of the Anglican Use Society.
____________________
Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
Luquette Lane
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ecassidy
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| Joined: | Thu Mar 22nd, 2007 |
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| First Name: | Gene | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Catholic to evangelical Protestant to evangelical Catholic |
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Posted: Sat Mar 8th, 2008 06:10 pm |
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Thanks, Rick, I have just printed some articles and will read them later...Gene
P.S. Is Kermit a Kajun, too? :-)
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CajunRick
Network Helper
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Posted: Sat Mar 8th, 2008 09:10 pm |
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ecassidy wrote: P.S. Is Kermit a Kajun, too? :-)
Kermie is a Cajun Chorus Frog. You can read about his breed here.
We now return to our regularly scheduled topic.
____________________
Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
Luquette Lane
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heardclarke
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| Joined: | Mon Apr 9th, 2007 |
| Location: | Greenville, South Carolina USA |
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| First Name: | Lisa | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | cradle Episcopalian; confirmed RC Easter 2005 |
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Posted: Sat Mar 29th, 2008 07:06 pm |
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In connection with the issue of a valid apostolic succession.....
I was in London this past summer and attended Mass at Westminster Cathedral (as opposed to Westminster Abbey, which is Anglican.)
At the Cathedral there was a large plaque on the wall listing every Catholic bishop from the early Middle Ages to the present. When I came to the listing for Thomas Cranmer, Henry VII's hand-picked Archbishop of Canterbury, I was intrigued to find that it read simply "REMOVED FOR HERESY," followed by a date and the name of the replacement Catholic bishop.
As a recent convert from the Anglican Church I can tell you that those Anglicans who still care firmly believe they have a valid Eucharist, because they believe that they have a valid apostolic succession. My becoming Catholic was offensive to some, because it implied that I do not accept either of those sacraments --the Eucharist or Holy Orders-- as valid in their communion. They didn't think much of papal authority either.
On a personal note, I deeply regret that my father's ordination in the Episcopal Church is not considered valid either, but I had reached the point where I could not allow that to stand in the way of my decision. He may or may not follow me across the Tiber, but I am thankful that he seems to understand and bears me no ill will.
Lisa
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Ubi caritas et amor, Deus ibi est.
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