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JillD
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Posted: Sat Oct 14th, 2006 02:45 am |
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I just read an article which claimed that several Catholic seminaries were loaded with homosexual and non-celibate future priests. One in Baltimore was called "The Pink Palace" it was so bad. There were several mentioned.
Is this still a problem? The article made it sound like the bishops wouldn't do anything about it because there were already so few candidates for the priesthood.
I hope the problem has been corrected...
____________________
"I praise you, for I am wondrously made. Wonderful are our works! My frame was not hidden from you, when I was being made in secret." Ps 139
"Guard me, O Lord, from the hands of the wicked; preserve me from violent men." Ps 140
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David W. Emery
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Posted: Sat Oct 14th, 2006 09:30 am |
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What is the date of that article? The United States Conference of Catholic Bishops (USCCB) addressed this problem in the early 1990s, and several seminaries were reformed at that time. Seminarians with homosexual tendencies or celibacy problems were dismissed. Then in 2001 the homosexual priest scandal broke, and there was another purging of the seminaries by order of the Vatican. An Apostolic Visitation (Vatican-sponsored inspection) of US seminaries is currently under way.
I doubt very seriously whether any such problem exists today. A few isolated instances may have slipped through unnoticed (there have always been a few), but the “pink palaces” are gone.
Other countries have had similar problems, and they were cleaned up as well. I recall one infamous case in Austria which came to light in 2003. The Vatican shut it down and ordered its reorganization because the local bishop refused to do so. Today there is a new bishop and a thriving new seminary with no sign of corruption.
So you see, even scandals have their uses. They open people’s eyes to the evil in their midst and allow them to reform what is amiss.
David
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CajunRick
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Posted: Sat Oct 14th, 2006 09:33 am |
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JillD wrote: I just read an article which claimed that several Catholic seminaries were loaded with homosexual and non-celibate future priests. One in Baltimore was called "The Pink Palace" it was so bad. There were several mentioned.
Is this still a problem? The article made it sound like the bishops wouldn't do anything about it because there were already so few candidates for the priesthood.
I hope the problem has been corrected...
Don't believe everything you read. Many such articles are written by anti-Catholics, and articles in the secluar media are often written by the same anti-Catholics. You didn't say where the article came from, so I can only guess it is either old or inaccurate.
It is true there was a problem, but no nearly as severe as what you say might indicate. It was corrected a few years ago by guidelines issued by Pope John Paul II. There were a few isolated seminaries, mostly in Europe, where the problem was severe. They were closed or reorganized.
The Roman Catholic Church expects its priests to be celibate. It makes no difference whether they are homosexual or heterosexual, they are expected to avoid "illicit sexual union" and since they are not married, all sexual union is illicit. Eastern Churches, which permit priests to be married, expect their priests to engage only in sexual relations only with their wives ("licit sexual union"). Unmarried men, whether homosexual or heterosexual, are expected to be celibate.
____________________
Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
Luquette Lane
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JillD
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| First Name: | Jill | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | heathen, EvFree, Messianic, LC-MS, Catholic 2007 |
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Posted: Sat Oct 14th, 2006 11:21 am |
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The first article I read was this one:
http://www.tldm.org/news5/seminaries.htm
But if you Google some key words (I used "Catholic seminary homosexuality"), thousands of articles appear. The above article does reference mostly things which occurred in the 1980's, but quotes articles from as recently as 2002.
So, it was a problem at one time, but has been cleaned up, right? That seems to be the bottom line and I do hope it's true.
____________________
"I praise you, for I am wondrously made. Wonderful are our works! My frame was not hidden from you, when I was being made in secret." Ps 139
"Guard me, O Lord, from the hands of the wicked; preserve me from violent men." Ps 140
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CajunRick
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Posted: Sat Oct 14th, 2006 12:01 pm |
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I wouldn't put any stock in anything you find on this web site. It promotes many teachings that contradict the teachings of the Church, and just happens to sell items to protect us from all of their dire warnings.
The Bishop of Brooklyn has denounced the claims, so of course the proponents have said this his denunciation was improper.
The Bayside Apparitions have never been approved by the Church because the "messages" are so contrary to Catholic teaching, and people are making money off of promoting the vindictiveness of God.
Last edited on Sat Oct 14th, 2006 12:07 pm by CajunRick
____________________
Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
Luquette Lane
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BettyBoopToo
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| First Name: | Betty | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Fist Baptist/Calvary Babtist/Secular Confusion/ Roman Catholic |
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Posted: Sun Oct 15th, 2006 09:14 pm |
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cajunrick wrote:
The Roman Catholic Church expects its priests to be celibate. It makes no difference whether they are homosexual or heterosexual, they are expected to avoid "illicit sexual union" and since they are not married, all sexual union is illicit. Eastern Churches, which permit priests to be married, expect their priests to engage only in sexual relations only with their wives ("licit sexual union"). Unmarried men, whether homosexual or heterosexual, are expected to be celibate.
Jill
I completely agree with Ricks comment here. These dredful scandals broke out right at the beginning of my conversion. I even had Catholics asking me if I was nuts.
I'm very thankful to God that my conversion had nothing to do with the holiness or unholiness of the members and Magisterium of Christ Church.
It relied solely on what Jesus led me to know as his "One Holy Catholic & Apostolic Church".
I was very excited to read all I could on the church, But soon found out that doing a Google search can also lead you to some very bad site's who's information is at times out & out Lies.
If you'd like I can recomend a few sites that the information is acurate church teaching and you can safely study. Here is just a few.
http://catholic.com/
http://www.scripturecatholic.com/
http://www.catholicfirst.com/index.cfm
http://catholicconvert.com/Default.aspx?tabid=36
http://ewtn.com/index.asp
If your looking for some specific information sites, I may also have a link. Each of these are some of my favorites, There's enough information on these sites to keep you busy for many, many hours
If you don't mind I'll give you one more little tip, If you shop for Catholic books at a regular book store and are not familiar with any authors you can get some really crummy books and even some who are anti-catholic.
I had to learn this the hard way. I bought a book called "Roman Catholicism" by Boettner? thinking it was a book about the church. Well, I'll just say Its not at all.
I'm not trying to be pushy, I just thought I'd let you know.
Peace to You
BBT
____________________
Patience
"Whenever anything disagreeable or displeasing happens to you, remember Christ crucified and be silent."
St. John of the Cross
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Esther
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| Joined: | Fri Sep 29th, 2006 |
| Location: | Kansas City, Kansas USA |
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| First Name: | Esther | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Southern Baptist to Roman Catholic 11/26/06 |
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Posted: Sun Oct 15th, 2006 11:36 pm |
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Betty,
Funny part is I bought "Roman Catholicism" by Boettner as well when I first started researching the Church. I thought it was just going to be about RCC beliefs. Wow! uh? I almost went away from the RCC screaming. I did notice it was poorly written and that there was a lack of sources. By chance I found a Catholic book store the next week or so. I was looking for a Scott Hahn book and I stumbled across "Catholicism and Fundamentalism" by Karl Keating. I didn't know what the book was about (except for the obvious). Turns out he refutes anti-Catholic arguements, starting of with Boettners book (the 'anti-Catholic bible'). I don't know why I decided that book, right while I was going through Boettners book, other then it was a small work of God. Anyway check out the book if you get a chance. It is great!!
God bless,
Esther
Last edited on Sun Oct 15th, 2006 11:38 pm by Esther
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JillD
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| First Name: | Jill | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | heathen, EvFree, Messianic, LC-MS, Catholic 2007 |
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Posted: Sun Oct 15th, 2006 11:58 pm |
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Fortunately for me, I read Keating's book first! And only. After reading his, I'm glad I never ran into hers!
Thank you for all the resources, BBT. I found a guardian angel in Cindy whose husband works for Catholic Answers. For weeks, I've been reading and listening to what she's sent and alerted me to!
____________________
"I praise you, for I am wondrously made. Wonderful are our works! My frame was not hidden from you, when I was being made in secret." Ps 139
"Guard me, O Lord, from the hands of the wicked; preserve me from violent men." Ps 140
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JillD
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Posted: Mon Oct 23rd, 2006 11:57 am |
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Is the problem really over?? This is from a conservative Catholic site and is from 2005. I've been visiting different parishes to find one I like and I'm a little freaked out as the parish I like has a priest from St. John's in Camarillo and he's not very friendly. What to think if one finds out that their priest is homosexual? What, if anything, is being done to encourage heterosexual men only to become priests?
http://www.lifesite.net/ldn/2005/dec/05122203.html
____________________
"I praise you, for I am wondrously made. Wonderful are our works! My frame was not hidden from you, when I was being made in secret." Ps 139
"Guard me, O Lord, from the hands of the wicked; preserve me from violent men." Ps 140
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CajunRick
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Posted: Mon Oct 23rd, 2006 12:38 pm |
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JillD wrote: Is the problem really over?? This is from a conservative Catholic site and is from 2005. I've been visiting different parishes to find one I like and I'm a little freaked out as the parish I like has a priest from St. John's in Camarillo and he's not very friendly. What to think if one finds out that their priest is homosexual? What, if anything, is being done to encourage heterosexual men only to become priests?
What's the difference between a homosexual priest who honors his vow of celibacy, and a heterosexual priest who honors his vow of celibacy?
What's the difference between a homosexual priest who fails to honor his vow, and a heterosexual priest who fails to honor his vow?
The closest thing to a web site that treats the issue fairly in the article you cited is the L.A. Times itself, which has certainly never been cited as a newspaper that favors the Catholic Church. However, their article actually supports what I said earlier. The men in the graduating classes in the late 60's and early 70's would have entered the high school seminary 12 years earlier, from the late 40's to 1960. Heterosexual and homosexual men, especially after Vatican II, left the seminary in droves because of the tumult in the Church, leaving a disproportionate number of men who might have become abusers. The article cited two cases of abuse by seminarians in the 1980's but both were against women, which helps to prove that the issue is not with homosexuals but with abusers.
Abusers are overwhelmingly heterosexual and they are overwhelmingly married. The percentage of abusive priests is actually well below the percentage of abusive teachers, scout leaders, etc. The most prominent cases of abuse lately have been female teachers having sex with their male students! And to the tune of some 85% of all cases, abusers are related to their victims.
I know several priests whom I suspect are homosexual, and one who has openly announced his sexual preference. All are celibate, and all are fantastic priests. When I need to consult with a priest, I turn to one of them.
I don't have a problem with priests who are homosexual or heterosexual. I have a problem with priests who fail to honor their vows. As for seminaries, if 15% of the graduates were "abusers" (whatever that means), that still leave 85% who were not.
What has the Church done to insure that homosexual men do not become priests? Nothing. The Church has increased counseling to insure that the men accepted to ordination can be reasonably expected to honor their vow of celibacy. In particular, homosexual men cannot have engaged in a sexual relationship in the previous 3 years, which would mean two years before taking the vow of celibacy as a deacon. I would hope that the same counseling has been extended to heterosexual men, even if the Vatican did not demand it.
So if I were you, I wouldn't be nearly as concerned that your priest might be homosexual than I would be if he is not honoring his vow of celibacy. Homosexuality is not a sin; breaking his vow is. Engaging in sexual activity outside of marriage is. But neither heterosexual orientation nor heterosexual orientation are sinful.
____________________
Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
Luquette Lane
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CajunRick
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Posted: Mon Oct 23rd, 2006 07:31 pm |
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| Please note an article I posted in "Religion in the News" on Ministry to Homosexuals which you'll find here.
____________________
Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
Luquette Lane
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JillD
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Posted: Mon Oct 23rd, 2006 07:38 pm |
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| I would be interested to hear about the results of that meeting if you happen to find out.
____________________
"I praise you, for I am wondrously made. Wonderful are our works! My frame was not hidden from you, when I was being made in secret." Ps 139
"Guard me, O Lord, from the hands of the wicked; preserve me from violent men." Ps 140
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gkchesterton
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Posted: Fri Oct 27th, 2006 09:40 pm |
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cajunrick wrote:
What's the difference between a homosexual priest who honors his vow of celibacy, and a heterosexual priest who honors his vow of celibacy?
What's the difference between a homosexual priest who fails to honor his vow, and a heterosexual priest who fails to honor his vow?
Rick I'm going to quote from the Vatican document again:
"If, however, one is dealing with homosexual tendencies that may be simply the expression of a transitory problem, such as for example an adolescence not yet complete, such tendencies must be overcome at least three years before ordination to the diaconate. "
A "tendancy" is not an act. While those that have received Holy Orders can not have them undone the directive makes it clear that homosexuals that still experience these tendancies should not be ordained. Orders only come if:
1.) You no longer have these tendancies and have reached sexual maturity
2.) You have not had these tendancies for a minimum of three years
3.) In accordance with the previous paragraph, you do not promote the homosexual life-style.
The Vatican took a lot of flak for treating homosexuality as a lack of development. I think they deserve props for treating it that way. While what you are saying is similiar to the document it has some critical differences in that the document treats homosexuality as something that can go away.
The strength of the wording here is one of those things that keeps me looking at the RCC. For those interested the whole document can be found here:
http://www.cwnews.com/news/viewstory.cfm?recnum=40891
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gkchesterton
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Posted: Fri Oct 27th, 2006 10:01 pm |
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I just noticed the abuse comments. Some care should be used in those statistics. Amongst those who abuse children in the home a majority are hetrosexual. They also tend to be, almost to the last man, step-fathers. I will provide statistics if needed.
In cases outside of the home this does not hold true especially if you account for the ratio of homosexuals in the population at large. A given homosexual is far more likely to be predatory than a given hetrosexual. The Vatican properly pins this on lack of development and disordered desire. Homosexual and pedophiliac groups have been traditionally aligned. For example the Ian McKellen's argument that the age of consent should be lowered (http://www.mckellen.com/writings/900220times.htm).
I've been meaning to write an article for sometime that deals with sexual predation and how it is something that Christianity, with an insistance on forgiveness has difficulty dealing with. Also, our punative measures against sin have become lax. Traditionally priests and monks with this problem would been removed from areas that could cause them problems. In the last centuries we've tried to become more sensative to the needs of the individual and have concentrated less on the sinners negative impact on the congregation as a whole.
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CajunRick
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Posted: Sat Oct 28th, 2006 12:00 am |
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gkchesterton, you and I read the document differently. I also know homosexual priests who are faithful to their vows and excellent pastors, and I would hate to see the Church lose others like them. So perhaps I am reading the document differently from you because of my own positive experiences with priests who experience same sex attraction.
By the way, the CWN translation is unofficial. The official Vatican document can be found here.
____________________
Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
Luquette Lane
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gkchesterton
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Posted: Sat Oct 28th, 2006 02:36 pm |
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I think we are. I will note that with italicizing "acts" and "tendancies" the official document seems to have an even stronger reading. We have to remember that being nice and even good at other matters in thier job doesn't make them qualified.
I have, for example, known adulterers that are very nice people and work hard in the community. They don't qualify for the priesthood or any pastoral work however.
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