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brian
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| Joined: | Fri Sep 29th, 2006 |
| Location: | Chicago South Burbs, Illinois USA |
| Posts: | 799 |
| First Name: | brian | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | methodist, evangelical, anglican, catholic |
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Posted: Tue Oct 10th, 2006 02:02 pm |
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I know that the church does not permit remarriage and has what is called an anullment, but do they recognize divorce at all. I know that they say that a marriage can not be broken by any power once sacramentally joined, but biblically did not Jesus say that for reasons od unfaithfulness that divorce was possible? So can a catholic get a divorce without an anullment and still participate in the sacraments as long as they are not remarried? How does the church view this? are they still married but simply living separated from that?
Also the whole anullment thing seems like it is good because of God's mercy, but it also seems like a little bit of a copout to me. That people who were married sacramentally can go back after the fact and declare that really it was not a true sacrament. I would think the nature of sacraments is that they would be for sure at the time received. I am not sure that i see anything biblical about the idea of anullment. meaning it seems like a clever way of getting out of the rules that is not found in the bible. I am ok with it cause it makes some logical sense and is based upon mercy, but i guess i am wondering where the idea comes from and why.
also soomeone i know accused the church of taking bribes in order to grant anullments. not recently but he believed this was the case earlier in this century. is there any possible truth to his claim or is this simply one of those unsubstantiated complaints against the church?
Brian
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CajunRick
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| Joined: | Fri Sep 29th, 2006 |
| Location: | Houma, Louisiana USA |
| Posts: | 5310 |
| First Name: | Rick (& Kermie) | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Lifetime Catholic, Latin Rite |
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Posted: Tue Oct 10th, 2006 02:27 pm |
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brian wrote: I know that the church does not permit remarriage and has what is called an anullment, but do they recognize divorce at all. I know that they say that a marriage can not be broken by any power once sacramentally joined, but biblically did not Jesus say that for reasons od unfaithfulness that divorce was possible? So can a catholic get a divorce without an anullment and still participate in the sacraments as long as they are not remarried? How does the church view this? are they still married but simply living separated from that?
Yes, divorce is permitted when absolutely necessary and as long as the spouse is not remarried or cohabitating, they can still participate in the sacraments. It is the remarriage that is a rejection of the Church's authority, not the divorce.
The Tribunal process takes infidelity into account as a symptom of a larger problem of lack of commitment on the part of the unfaithful spouse, and the failure to keep the vows exchanged at the time of the marriage.
Also the whole anullment thing seems like it is good because of God's mercy, but it also seems like a little bit of a copout to me. That people who were married sacramentally can go back after the fact and declare that really it was not a true sacrament. I would think the nature of sacraments is that they would be for sure at the time received.
But that's simply not the case. As with any contract, sometimes information is not available which would change someone's decision. For example, if you buy a house and later determine that it is filled with termites, and you can prove the seller knew, you can invalidate the contract. You don't sell the house back to them; the contract is invalid from the beginning and you never purchased it. That's because your decision to make the purchase was flawed because of a lack of information.
Suppose you buy a house and it is later determined that you are only 14 years old. The contract is invalid from the beginning because you were not legally able to make that purchase.
Suppose you buy a house and later find out that the seller didn't own it. The contract is invalid from the beginning because the seller didn't have the right to sell it.
Marriage is the same way. If a person is unable to give full consent because of prior impediments, immaturity, lack of information, etc., then the consent is flawed and the marriage contract never took place, even though the decision may happen years or even decades later. Just like a judge has to make that decision in the case of a real estate transaction, the Church has to make that decision in case of a marriage or other canonical issue.
I am not sure that i see anything biblical about the idea of anullment. meaning it seems like a clever way of getting out of the rules that is not found in the bible. I am ok with it cause it makes some logical sense and is based upon mercy, but i guess i am wondering where the idea comes from and why.
" What therefore God has joined together, let not man put asunder." (Mark 10:9)
If the marriage is not "God-joined" (i.e, sacramental) then it can be divided through divorce. If the marriage is "God-joined", no power in heaven or on earth except death of one of the spouses can end it.
The Church's determination is whether it is "God-joined" (i.e., sacramental). If it is, a declaration of nullity will not be issued.
also soomeone i know accused the church of taking bribes in order to grant anullments. not recently but he believed this was the case earlier in this century. is there any possible truth to his claim or is this simply one of those unsubstantiated complaints against the church?
There is a donation requested to cover the costs of the Tribunal, which operates at a loss. This pays the cost of secretarial salaries, copies, storage, etc. There is no charge for people who are truly unable to pay. Some people choose to hire "professionals" to help them prepare their paperwork, which can speed the process and help assure success because the professional knows the right way to present the case and the amateur is more likely to make a fatal mistake and leave out critical details, but this is the choice of the individual(s) involved. My parish has such a professional on staff who assists at no charge.
As for things that happened in the past, there have been times of great corruption in the Church, but reforms were instituted at the Council of Trent in an effort to assure that corrupt practices ended. That doesn't mean that there haven't been isolated cases of corruption. The people who make up the Church are still sinners. Pope John Paul II instituted mandatory reviews of Tribunal proceedings to help insure that invalid declarations are not issued, and the Vatican has the ultimate authority to review each and every case.
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Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
Luquette Lane
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Br. Rich SFO
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| Joined: | Mon Oct 9th, 2006 |
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Posted: Tue Oct 10th, 2006 08:45 pm |
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I know that the church does not permit remarriage and has what is called an anullment, but do they recognize divorce at all. I know that they say that a marriage can not be broken by any power once sacramentally joined, but biblically did not Jesus say that for reasons od unfaithfulness that divorce was possible? So can a catholic get a divorce without an anullment and still participate in the sacraments as long as they are not remarried? How does the church view this? are they still married but simply living separated from that?
Jesus said that a Marriage found to be invalid by reason of family relation can be set aside. The Greek word suggests an incestuous relationship. Yes, a Catholic who divorces is considered sepaprated and has full access to the Sacraments as long as they do not attempt another Marriage.
Also the whole anullment thing seems like it is good because of God's mercy, but it also seems like a little bit of a copout to me. That people who were married sacramentally can go back after the fact and declare that really it was not a true sacrament. I would think the nature of sacraments is that they would be for sure at the time received. I am not sure that i see anything biblical about the idea of anullment. meaning it seems like a clever way of getting out of the rules that is not found in the bible. I am ok with it cause it makes some logical sense and is based upon mercy, but i guess i am wondering where the idea comes from and why.
The people don't declare that the Marriage was not valid. The Facts show this after careful investigation. It's not based upon mercy or anything like that, it's based on only the facts on the day of the Marriage. The idea is that the Church has been granted the power to oversee the Sacraments and make judgments on their validity.
also soomeone i know accused the church of taking bribes in order to grant anullments. not recently but he believed this was the case earlier in this century. is there any possible truth to his claim or is this simply one of those unsubstantiated complaints against the church?
One would hope not. Many non-Catholics see the payment of the fees covering the "legal" administrative and investigative expenses somehow payment to the Church for the Annulment instead of what they are payment of expenses incured during the investigation and Tribunal trial.
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kimdyuma
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| Joined: | Mon Oct 9th, 2006 |
| Location: | Arizona USA |
| Posts: | 832 |
| First Name: | Kim | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | cradle Anglican, Episcopal /Catholic-04/07/07 |
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Posted: Wed Oct 11th, 2006 12:53 am |
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| Are marriages made by a protestant minster recognized if either the couple or one spouse joins the Catholic church after the marriage ( in my case 16 years) this is the only marrage for both of us
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Adopt from your local Humane Society- Please spay or neuter your pets
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CajunRick
Network Helper
| Joined: | Fri Sep 29th, 2006 |
| Location: | Houma, Louisiana USA |
| Posts: | 5310 |
| First Name: | Rick (& Kermie) | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Lifetime Catholic, Latin Rite |
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Posted: Wed Oct 11th, 2006 01:11 am |
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kimdyuma wrote: Are marriages made by a protestant minster recognized if either the couple or one spouse joins the Catholic church after the marriage ( in my case 16 years) this is the only marrage for both of us
It's hard to generalize on so little information, but normally yes.
The general rule is as long as neither party has ever been a member of the Catholic Church, and neither party has ever been married before, then every marriage that is legally binding is recognized by the Church as sacramental. There are exceptions, such as marriages between first cousins, but they rarely occur.
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Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
Luquette Lane
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lia
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| Joined: | Mon Dec 11th, 2006 |
| Location: | Quezon City, Philippines |
| Posts: | 98 |
| First Name: | lia | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Cradle Catholic |
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Posted: Mon Feb 26th, 2007 03:06 am |
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cajunrick wrote: brian wrote: I know that the church does not permit remarriage and has what is called an anullment, but do they recognize divorce at all. I know that they say that a marriage can not be broken by any power once sacramentally joined, but biblically did not Jesus say that for reasons od unfaithfulness that divorce was possible? So can a catholic get a divorce without an anullment and still participate in the sacraments as long as they are not remarried? How does the church view this? are they still married but simply living separated from that?
Yes, divorce is permitted when absolutely necessary and as long as the spouse is not remarried or cohabitating, they can still participate in the sacraments. It is the remarriage that is a rejection of the Church's authority, not the divorce.
The Tribunal process takes infidelity into account as a symptom of a larger problem of lack of commitment on the part of the unfaithful spouse, and the failure to keep the vows exchanged at the time of the marriage.
Jesus did mention that "for reasons of unfaithfullness...." one is allowed divorce. But he did not say one can re-marry. Because as a follow up he said if a divorced person re-marry then they have committed adultery. Jesus cannot contradict himself. Nor would he say something that will make us violate the 10 commandments. That's why we need the Catholic Church to interpret the bible for us.
I actually only got it today as to why "it seems" Jesus is approving of divorce 
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Man can't b forced 2 accept the truth.He can b drawn toward the truth only by his own nature, that is, by his own freedom w/c commits him 2 search sincerely 4 truth & when he finds it, 2 adhere 2 it both in his conviction & his behavior.-- JP2
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