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ryan123450
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| First Name: | Ryan | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Christian, Catholic |
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Posted: Wed Apr 23rd, 2008 11:57 pm |
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I participated in RCIA this last year, but because my non-Catholic wife refuses to get her previous marriage annulled, I was unable to be baptized and confirmed at Easter Vigil. For a long time I have assumed that eventually she will change her mind and go threw a small amount of discomfort to help me change the rest of my life and indeed my eternity. But the more time goes on the more I wonder if I will ever be able to join the Church.
I desire baptism so badly and cannot wait to be washed of my sins. And I have an urgent hunger for the Eucharist that I know I will be unable to satisfy for a long time. My preist even offered to let me "secretly" join the Church next year despite not having solved my problem, but I know this is wrong.
Are there any books, websites, or groups that I might find that can give me some more information on my situation, or let me know that there are others like me? Or does anyone here have any advice or encouragement? This has all caused my wife and family and I so much conflict and hurt. And I just really don't know what to do if I can never fix this problem.
Thank you
Last edited on Wed Apr 23rd, 2008 11:58 pm by ryan123450
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Didi
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| First Name: | Didi | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Catholic; almost left; Now an On-Fire Catholic! |
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Posted: Thu Apr 24th, 2008 12:18 am |
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Hi Ryan -- 
I am so sorry for your hurt in not being able to join the Church yet. Have you considered just getting the paperwork/information about annulment to see what has to be done? Maybe your wife would be willing to at least look at it, or maybe she doesn't understand what it is exactly.
I'm not an expert at all on this matter, but I'm sure others will be able to help you. Just want you to know I'm praying for you and your wife. 
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ryan123450
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Posted: Thu Apr 24th, 2008 01:09 am |
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| She knows exactly what it is and what she has to do. I've talked alot with my priest about it and we had a meeting set up months ago to go get the forms and have her talk with him about it, but then she backed out at the last minute. And eventually she refused to have anything to do with it anymore.
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Intercessor
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| First Name: | Becky | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Southern Baptist, Catholic |
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Posted: Thu Apr 24th, 2008 01:56 am |
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ryan123450 wrote:
I participated in RCIA this last year, but because my non-Catholic wife refuses to get her previous marriage annulled, I was unable to be baptized and confirmed at Easter Vigil. For a long time I have assumed that eventually she will change her mind and go threw a small amount of discomfort to help me change the rest of my life and indeed my eternity. But the more time goes on the more I wonder if I will ever be able to join the Church.
I desire baptism so badly and cannot wait to be washed of my sins. And I have an urgent hunger for the Eucharist that I know I will be unable to satisfy for a long time. My preist even offered to let me "secretly" join the Church next year despite not having solved my problem, but I know this is wrong.
Are there any books, websites, or groups that I might find that can give me some more information on my situation, or let me know that there are others like me? Or does anyone here have any advice or encouragement? This has all caused my wife and family and I so much conflict and hurt. And I just really don't know what to do if I can never fix this problem.
Thank you
. . . She knows exactly what it is and what she has to do. I've talked alot with my priest about it and we had a meeting set up months ago to go get the forms and have her talk with him about it, but then she backed out at the last minute. And eventually she refused to have anything to do with it anymore.
Ryan, you must be feeling very frustrated and discouraged. No, you are not alone. There have been others on the forum in the past (perhaps some even now) who are in your situation. Our network helpers/apologist have dealt with this sort of situation before and will be able to advise you.
I commend you for having the wisdom and strength to resist the temptation offered by a priest who seems not to value loyalty to Church teaching. I will pray for you and for your wife, Ryan. I hope you are faithful to Mass, even though you can't receive, and that you spend as much time as possible in front of the Blessed Sacrament. Don't forget that you can make Acts of Contrition and Spiritual Communions.
In Christ,
Becky
____________________
"He who will persevere unto the end is not he who will never fall, but he who after every fall will humble himself and rise again, relying on the infinite strength of God." Divine Intimacy, p. 885 Father Gabriel, O.C.D.
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ryan123450
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Posted: Thu Apr 24th, 2008 11:15 pm |
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Thank you everyone for the prayers. They are most appreciated. I attend Mass every single week without fail, even though that has become a point of contention with my wife. She says I'm abandoning my family whenever I leave her at home with the kids for Mass or RCIA. She doesn't think rearranging her schedual is an option when I could just skip Mass.
I say Acts of Contrition often, but I wonder if I should make it somehow a formal weekly process, or if simply saying the heartfelt prayers whenever I make time is good enough. What exactly are Spiritual Communions? I probably get the point, but would you care to elaborate? Thanks.
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Didi
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| First Name: | Didi | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Catholic; almost left; Now an On-Fire Catholic! |
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Posted: Thu Apr 24th, 2008 11:22 pm |
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Ryan --
Here is a prayer for spiritual communion:
My Jesus,
I believe that You
are present in the Most Holy Sacrament.
I love You above all things,
and I desire to receive You into my soul.
Since I cannot at this moment
receive You sacramentally,
come at least spiritually into my heart. I embrace You as if You were already there and unite myself wholly to You. Never permit me to be separated from You.
Amen.
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Intercessor
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Posted: Thu Apr 24th, 2008 11:37 pm |
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ryan123450 wrote:
Thank you everyone for the prayers. They are most appreciated. I attend Mass every single week without fail, even though that has become a point of contention with my wife. She says I'm abandoning my family whenever I leave her at home with the kids for Mass or RCIA. She doesn't think rearranging her schedual is an option when I could just skip Mass.
I say Acts of Contrition often, but I wonder if I should make it somehow a formal weekly process, or if simply saying the heartfelt prayers whenever I make time is good enough. What exactly are Spiritual Communions? I probably get the point, but would you care to elaborate? Thanks.
Click here for Spiritual Communion prayer.
Ryan, at the url above you will find an example of the spiritual communion prayer. You don't have to recite it exactly. There are others. You can pray your own version. I attended over 125 Masses before being allowed to receive (went to daily Mass). As others went forward to receive the Lord, I remained at my place, kneeling and fervently praying my prayer of spiritual communion. That practice, together with daily adoration before the Blessed Sacrament gave me the calm and strength I needed to weather the storms of making it into the Church.
Many people have had to wait a long time, Ryan. (I don't mind offering general pieces of advice, but you'll do better with sage counsel from our network helpers/apologist, especially since a very resentful wife and children are involved.) Sometimes just recognizing and accepting that a certain battle is not going to be won quickly is a very important step toward ultimate victory. That step alone is probably enough for you to chew on right now. A very big part of Catholicism is simply waiting on the Lord. Another big part is choosing advisors very carefully. So far you have been wise. First, because you did not accept the temptation offered by your priest. Secondly, because you came to this forum which is loyal to Church teaching.
One of the helpers should get to your post before too much longer.
I am praying.
Becky
Last edited on Fri Apr 25th, 2008 01:34 am by Intercessor
____________________
"He who will persevere unto the end is not he who will never fall, but he who after every fall will humble himself and rise again, relying on the infinite strength of God." Divine Intimacy, p. 885 Father Gabriel, O.C.D.
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ryan123450
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Posted: Fri Apr 25th, 2008 12:03 am |
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| Thanks Didi and Intercessor for the spiritual communion prayer. I'll start praying that at Mass Sunday. Thanks also for the kind words.
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Hidden One
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Posted: Fri Apr 25th, 2008 12:43 am |
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You and your family are in my prayers.
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1 John 4:7-12
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BodRod
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Posted: Fri Apr 25th, 2008 01:45 am |
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| I don't have any words of encouragement or advice. However, a question immediately popped into my mind which was, "Why would anyone want to stay with someone whom they did not love or did not love in return?" My question comes from my perspective of love which is that people who love each other do not deliberately cause them continuing pain.
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Gratias agamus Domino Deo nostro.
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ryan123450
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Posted: Fri Apr 25th, 2008 01:07 pm |
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| I could never leave my wife, let alone my children. I know I don't deliberate cause her pain, though I know I do so indirectly. And I don't believe she understands how much she hurts me by keeping me from joining the Church. I can only hope that someday she can see that and we can reach some kind of understanding. I pray for it and slowly work toward that everyday.
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BodRod
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Posted: Fri Apr 25th, 2008 01:38 pm |
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| I had not thought about the children. Good Point!!!
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Gratias agamus Domino Deo nostro.
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Credo Catholic
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Posted: Fri Apr 25th, 2008 03:12 pm |
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| Ryan, I have one more suggestion to add. Offer up the pain and suffering you are feeling to God. Just give them to Him as a sacrifice of your love for Him. He will give you the grace to be patient and loving, and soldier through the tough times. God bless
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CajunRick
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Posted: Fri Apr 25th, 2008 05:30 pm |
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ryan123450 wrote: I could never leave my wife, let alone my children.
I don't know about you, but I regularly leave my wife alone when I go to work, and she leaves me alone when she goes to work. Sometimes I leave her alone when I go to the grocery store, or she will leave me. When our daughter lived with us, she left us alone each day when she went to school.
Unless you are actually with each other 24/7, I think this is a bogus argument. I mean, do you actually shower together all the time? Do you congregate in the bathroom when one of you has to go? Do they watch you shave?
An hour at mass alone is not going to destroy the family. If anything, by strengthening your faith, it is strengthening the faith of the family even if you do not worship together.
____________________
Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
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Intercessor
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Posted: Fri Apr 25th, 2008 07:32 pm |
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CajunRick wrote:
ryan123450 wrote: I could never leave my wife, let alone my children.
I don't know about you, but I regularly leave my wife alone when I go to work, and she leaves me alone when she goes to work. Sometimes I leave her alone when I go to the grocery store, or she will leave me. When our daughter lived with us, she left us alone each day when she went to school.
Unless you are actually with each other 24/7, I think this is a bogus argument. I mean, do you actually shower together all the time? Do you congregate in the bathroom when one of you has to go? Do they watch you shave?
I think Ryan was responding to Cliff's post. Ryan is letting us know that he has no intention of ending his marriage. Right?
____________________
"He who will persevere unto the end is not he who will never fall, but he who after every fall will humble himself and rise again, relying on the infinite strength of God." Divine Intimacy, p. 885 Father Gabriel, O.C.D.
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CajunRick
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Posted: Fri Apr 25th, 2008 07:39 pm |
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Intercessor wrote: CajunRick wrote:
ryan123450 wrote: I could never leave my wife, let alone my children.
I don't know about you, but I regularly leave my wife alone when I go to work, and she leaves me alone when she goes to work. Sometimes I leave her alone when I go to the grocery store, or she will leave me. When our daughter lived with us, she left us alone each day when she went to school.
Unless you are actually with each other 24/7, I think this is a bogus argument. I mean, do you actually shower together all the time? Do you congregate in the bathroom when one of you has to go? Do they watch you shave?
[size=I think Ryan was responding to Cliff's post. Ryan is letting us know that he has no intention of ending his marriage. Right? ]
Well, I did understand that, but I was actually replying to an earlier statement:
I attend Mass every single week without fail, even though that has become a point of contention with my wife. She says I'm abandoning my family whenever I leave her at home with the kids for Mass or RCIA. She doesn't think rearranging her schedual is an option when I could just skip Mass.
I just quoted the wrong line. Happens sometimes when I'm answering at work and hurrying...
____________________
Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
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ryan123450
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Posted: Fri Apr 25th, 2008 08:03 pm |
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CajunRick wrote: An hour at mass alone is not going to destroy the family. If anything, by strengthening your faith, it is strengthening the faith of the family even if you do not worship together.
Assuming you were talking about my wife's attitude about my going to Mass, and not my desire to stay married to her...
You're right, that is a bogus arguement. I agree that strengthening my faith can only help strengthen our family. How could I be a good husband or father if I chose to be a bad Christian.
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ryan123450
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Posted: Sun May 25th, 2008 02:48 pm |
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| So what about the concept of living together "as brother and sister". Am I commiting a sin each time we are intimate? Are we being scandelous to our friends and family for living in this situation. I know my wife would not go for the "brother and sister" situation. And it would make her resent the Church even more than she already does. I'm sure that would be the straw that broke the camels back not only for our marriage, but for any hopes she ever has of coming around to being Catholic. So I have to somehow balance doing right with the well being of my children and wife.
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David W. Emery
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Posted: Sun May 25th, 2008 03:33 pm |
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ryan123450 wrote:So what about the concept of living together "as brother and sister"? Am I commiting a sin each time we are intimate? Are we being scandalous to our friends and family for living in this situation?
“Committing a sin” is the question that the Catholic Church seeks to answer through the tribunal process. Until a judgment is made, it is indeterminate. Living “as brother and sister” is not an option unless both parties are voluntarily agreed, are actually capable of abiding by their agreement, and are not causing scandal by remaining together.
Regarding scandal, I think one may presume that unless the friends and family are Catholic, they will accept the prevailing cultural norms, which in this society are acceptance of divorce and remarriage. And considering that there is ongoing internal contention in your marriage which bars the way to a tribunal process, even Catholics must concede that the potential for scandal is moot. You are simply not at liberty to do what you know is God’s will under normal circumstances, and God, in his mercy, does not demand the impossible.
Basically, Ryan, yours is a “hardship case,” more to be prayed for than condemned. I have served here on the CHNI Forum for a number of years, and I have met many people in marriages just like yours. Some couples eventually resolve their differences; others do not and continue to suffer a dysfunctional and oxymoronic “divisive union.” I pray that God will grant you his peace.
David
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sewnsew
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Posted: Sun May 25th, 2008 05:30 pm |
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| Ryan, the only answer that I have for you right now is patience- continue to go to Mass and be around as usual for her and the children the rest of the time. Sometimes even a new routine is threatening until it becomes just that: routine.
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CajunRick
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Posted: Sun May 25th, 2008 06:00 pm |
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ryan123450 wrote: Am I commiting a sin each time we are intimate?
You will still be restricted from the sacramental life of the Church until such time as you "follow the rules". St. Justin Martyr wrote early in the second century of the Christian era that those who receive the Eucharist must believe what we believe. From Justin's First Apology:
And this food is called among us Εὐχαριστία [the Eucharist], of which no one is allowed to partake but the man who believes that the things which we teach are true, and who has been washed with the washing that is for the remission of sins, and unto regeneration, and who is so living as Christ has enjoined.
At this point, you believe the things we teach are true and you have been washed (baptized) but you are not yet living as Christ has enjoined.
Last edited on Tue May 27th, 2008 10:18 pm by Dave Armstrong
____________________
Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
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ryan123450
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Posted: Sun May 25th, 2008 06:06 pm |
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| Thanks everyone for the encouragement and explanation. I will continue to do my best in a bad situation. I pray for it's eventual resolution. Last edited on Sun May 25th, 2008 06:06 pm by ryan123450
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Dave Armstrong
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Posted: Mon May 26th, 2008 06:30 pm |
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ryan123450 wrote: Am I commiting a sin each time we are intimate?
I don't believe so, because neither of you (far as I can tell) were Catholics. But there is the issue of a previous ostensible "marriage" involved. Now, it may be that it is an excellent "candidate" for an annulment, if your wife were willing to go through that process. You can't force her to do that. In other words, in reality, perhaps there was never a marriage for her before (I don't know the facts of the matter and can only speculate). The Church declares such things, but it doesn't create the reality. It is what it is. If the marriage never took place, according to a Catholic definition of marriage, it didn't, whether or not it was declared to be so. But the Church declaration gives it a definite, objective status. This is how true Church authority functions.
All Christians have to honestly deal with Jesus' statements:
Matthew 19:9: “And I say to you: whoever divorces his wife, except for unchastity, and marries another, commits adultery.”
(Catholics interpret "unchastity" here as meaning what is actually no marriage, and a state or fornication: a situation that would be declared null)
Mark 10:11-12 And he said to them, "Whoever divorces his wife and marries another, commits adultery against her; and if she divorces her husband and marries another, she commits adultery."
For more on this, see my papers:
Biblical Evidence for the Prohibition of Divorce (+ Discussion)
Divorce: Early Church Teaching
One can be "legally married" but it doesn't necessarily follow that no sin can be occurring simply because it is legal, and that is because Christian morality goes beyond what is merely legal.
If something is a grave sin, it is (objectively), regardless of the good faith of the people involved. They may not have known at the time, but once they find out (the subjective element), then they are responsible to act accordingly. Catholics should always take into account both the objective and subjective components of sin or possible sin.
I'm not saying that Ryan's case calls for abstinence (I don't know; probably not, from what I can tell, especially because no one is a Catholic, and at least one party isn't baptized, either); but certainly there are cases where this should occur, because of not only Catholic teaching, but plain biblical and historic Christian teaching. Otherwise, we would have a state of affairs whereby there would never be cases of adultery provided the parties involved were legally married.
If abstinence is not required by the facts of the matter, then it certainly would be inadvisable. The problem is that if an ostensible, legal "marriage" is not a true, sacramental "marriage", then speaking of the "marriage bond" would be irrelevant, because it isn't there in the first place. And if it isn't there, then it is indeed an ongoing state of fornication or adultery, as the case may be.
The Catholic Church teaches that marriages between two baptized Christians are indissoluble. But obviously if Ryan had never been baptized, and his wife was never Catholic, and not willing to go along with Catholic requirements, and was married before, then we have a legal marriage that could very well be regarded as such by the Church (were his wife willing to get an annulment), though imperfectly in some sense, due to the factors involved.
I'm no expert on all the intricacies of these complex matters, but I want to convey the right impression of the strictness of the very high Catholic view of sacramental marriage. The Church holds this view in order to protect married couples, not to torment them.
See also:
Biblical Evidence for Annulments
Abstaining From Sexual Relations Until Receiving an Annulment Regarding a Previous "Marriage"
Catholic Marriage Convalidation and "Radical Sanation"
Last edited on Tue May 27th, 2008 10:20 pm by Dave Armstrong
____________________
I'm happy to offer whatever theological & personal assistance I can. My blog, Biblical Evidence for Catholicism, contains 2000+ papers & web pages (absolutely free) & 16 apologetic books (for sale):
http://www.biblicalcatholic.com/
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heardclarke
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Posted: Mon Jun 2nd, 2008 03:37 pm |
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Dear Ryan,
I am so sorry about your difficulties with your family. Here are a few observations which might be helpful:
During my RCIA process, which I pursued independently of my husband, I asked my pastor about the Church recognizing my marriage (which had been performed in the Episcopal Church.) He said that since my husband and I had committed ourselves to a Godly, Christan marriage to the best of our knowledge 16 years before, the marriage was recognized by the Church since we had no other impediments such as previous marriages. Of course you have such an impediment, but nonetheless, your wife's and your intention when you married was apparently the same as ours. It is just a question of getting that annullment. Naturally from your wife's point of view "interference" by the Church in your personal lives (such as "living as brother and sister") would be intolerable. This would push her away instead of drawing her closer to you.
I was originally drawn to the Church by the love I saw in my Catholic friends' actions toward me and others. Being more loving and patient toward my husband (as my pastor urged me to do) also helped him adjust to my new faith and see it as a positive development in my life. A "lapsed" Catholic, he returned to the Church just a few weeks after my confirmation.
Since that time our Protestant friends have (I hope) also observed a difference in our marriage. I was very blessed to have my husband choose to follow me back into the Church, but if someone had predicted 10 years earlier that we would become Catholic, I would have said no way! He didn't seem as if he would ever change back then. Your situation is not going to be resolved as easily as mine, but love and patience will help more than anything. If your wife can begin to feel that the Church is not the enemy, she will be able to go through with a process that, for now, is very hard for her to understand.
Have you read Scott Hahn's book Rome Sweet Home? It describes how his conversion affected his marriage and his wife's eventual acceptance (at first she was adamantly opposed to it, but he prayed faithfully and her conversion followed).
Another book that might help is What Catholics Really Believe. It is not a big book, but it does a great job of answering questions about misconceptions many Protestants have regarding Church teachings.
Lisa
____________________
Ubi caritas et amor, Deus ibi est.
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kersca
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