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swordswoman
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| Joined: | Tue Feb 19th, 2008 |
| Location: | Williamsburg, Virginia USA |
| Posts: | 14 |
| First Name: | AnnieO | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Lutheran, Mormon (!), Catholic, Buddhist (!), Lutheran |
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Posted: Fri Apr 4th, 2008 11:17 pm |
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Hey -- now this may be a little premature since I'm not presently Catholic. But if I do return, here's my situation:
Married when I was pregnant, while I was Lutheran. Don't know if my ex-husband was ever baptized.
Fell away from the church right away, husband terribly immoral almost from the start. Had four children though.
Later I converted to Catholicism but fell away pretty quickly after that.
Gave up Christianity altogether to become Buddhist and remained so while my ex-husband and I divorced.
Did not become Christian again (prayed "sinner's prayer") at the request of my boyfriend later to become my second husband.
We are now Lutherans but somehow I keep getting attracted to the Catholic Church.
So. First off, do I have to go through RCIA again if I want to resume being Catholic (that may not be easy since my husband is not receptive to Catholicism at all). Secondly, if I did become Catholic again, what are my chances of an annulment? Even though I'm Lutheran, I still feel this nagging unease with a second marriage, even with a husband who is as moral as my first husband was immoral.
Please, I'm getting pretty frightened about all this!
Thanks so much. God's blessings!
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AnnieO
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CajunRick
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| Joined: | Fri Sep 29th, 2006 |
| Location: | Houma, Louisiana USA |
| Posts: | 5314 |
| First Name: | Rick (& Kermie) | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Lifetime Catholic, Latin Rite |
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Posted: Sat Apr 5th, 2008 12:57 am |
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swordswoman wrote: So. First off, do I have to go through RCIA again if I want to resume being Catholic (that may not be easy since my husband is not receptive to Catholicism at all).
First of all, let me say that your situation would require a detailed investigation by a priest I can only speak generically, and there might well be circumstances that would make your situation different than the few facts you've presented here would indicate.
Do you have to go through RCIA again? No. But I would certainly recommend it.
Assuming you have been baptized and confirmed and received Eucharist and Penance (which you didn't state), you are Catholic. Unless you have formally renounced the faith (which, again, you did not state), you remain Catholic. All you need is to go to confession.
BUT …
As a Catholic, you are bound by the marriage laws of the Church, which you have (apparently) violated. You obviously didn't have a full understanding of the faith the first time around, so you really should seek more information before recommiting yourself, and RCIA is likely the easiest way for you to accomplish that. Should you make a commitment to the faith again and fall away again, you are drawing judgment on yourself. Jesus said from those who are given much, much will be expected. Our Church teaches us that Catholics who knowingly fall away from the faith are placing their souls in grave danger, so you need to be absolutely certain of what you are doing. This is not the time for haste. I don't mean to be discouraging, but the decisions you make in this regard will indeed affect your salvation. You must be certain you are willing to make the commitment that God requires of you.
Secondly, if I did become Catholic again, what are my chances of an annulment? Even though I'm Lutheran, I still feel this nagging unease with a second marriage, even with a husband who is as moral as my first husband was immoral.
Again, based on the little information you've presented, I would say that your chances are excellent. Your first marriage was under duress. You obviously married a man who never intended to honor his commitment to you. There are even some special circumstances involving an unbaptized spouses who is endangering the faith of the baptized spouse, and it seems that might well apply in your case.
But there is a "flaw" in your question.
You can't "become Catholic again". You never stopped being a Catholic, especially if you received all of the Sacraments of Initiation (Baptism, Eucharist, Confirmation). However, as long as you are in an invalid marriage, you are not able to participate in the sacramental life of the Catholic faith. The Declaration of Nullity and validation of your current marriage must come first.
Please, I'm getting pretty frightened about all this!
Compared to some of the situations I've dealt with, yours is actually relatively simple. God honors your journey. That's why even unbaptized catechumens may be buried as Catholics if they should die prior to Baptism. God knows what's in your heart. If you sincerely love God and follow him with a sincere heart, then God will make a way for you to obtain salvation. The Church doesn't have that flexibility. The Church can only offer salvation through the sacraments, and the first step in the process of returning to the sacramental life of the Church is to meet with a priest and discuss your situation in detail. He will tell you whether you need to attend RCIA or a less formal method of instruction might be adequate. Don't rush; the journey begins with a single step.
He will also know (or can find out) whether your situation would qualify for one of the special circumstances, called the Pauline and Petrine Privileges. They have been discussed in detail on the forum; search for Pauline or Petrine to learn more.
And don't be afraid or discouraged. God loves you, so does his Church, and so do we. We will do our best to walk the journey with you. There are many here who have similar stories, some much worse and much more complicated! I helped with a case of a woman once who needed five annulments! The Church wants to offer you healing and reconciliation. All you have to do is let her.
____________________
Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
Luquette Lane
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swordswoman
Member
| Joined: | Tue Feb 19th, 2008 |
| Location: | Williamsburg, Virginia USA |
| Posts: | 14 |
| First Name: | AnnieO | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Lutheran, Mormon (!), Catholic, Buddhist (!), Lutheran |
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Posted: Mon Apr 7th, 2008 05:33 pm |
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Rick, Thanks for your kind understanding and helpful comments but if I could provide a little more info -- I was baptized in the Lutheran church, married in the Lutheran church, like I said, was pregnant first (!). (We won't go into the short Mormon fling. That was absolutely weird.) When I converted to Catholic some years later, I confessed and given absolution and was confirmed, (probably was given the Eucharist) but don't remember much else (it was 30 years ago!). But, like you said, I probably did not have a firm grasp on what I was committing to; I was a very confused individual for many years! So you're saying that my decision to become a Buddhist (card carrying even!) wouldn't be a formalized renunciation of the faith? or getting "re-confirmed" in the Lutheran church (3-4 years ago with my "present and last" husband)? I realize this whole tale makes me out to be pretty flighty, but I'm pretty sure I'm finally settling down.
I have read a few posts about the Petrine/Pauline privilege, that's why I mentioned about my first husband possibly not being baptized. I'll email him and ask. Oh, and I also realize that my "present and last" husband might not want to join me in this; that would be devastating but it is "uncanny" how I keep on reading Catholic websites and such...wonder what is going on!!!
Blessings on your day!
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AnnieO
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DrDave
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| Joined: | Mon Nov 6th, 2006 |
| Location: | Mildura, Australia |
| Posts: | 226 |
| First Name: | Dave | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Cradle - Lapsed - Renewed Catholic |
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Posted: Wed Apr 9th, 2008 07:36 am |
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Hi Annie, from what I know a formal repudiation of the faith would be you (not someone else on your behalf) either in person or in writing, formally revoking your membership of the Catholic Church directly to your Pastor (Parish Priest) and/or Bishop. Even with the haze of thirty years, I suspect you would remember taking such a drastic step. Thus if you have no such memories I would suspect that you are still a Catholic. (unless you were kidnapped drugged & brainwashed by the CIA or some other organization with initials)
With that in mind I would second Rick's urging that you prayerfully consider coming back home.  I would also second his suggestion that you go through the RCIA program again. I never left the Church but have participated in several RCIA programs as enquirer, sponsor, team member, and have never failed to learn something more about the faith
Regards Doc
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swordswoman
Member
| Joined: | Tue Feb 19th, 2008 |
| Location: | Williamsburg, Virginia USA |
| Posts: | 14 |
| First Name: | AnnieO | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Lutheran, Mormon (!), Catholic, Buddhist (!), Lutheran |
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Posted: Fri Apr 11th, 2008 04:49 pm |
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Doc,
I never submitted a formal request to leave the Church, I know that! (In fact, I didn't know such a thing existed.) I have assumed, though, that once I took a "formal" step to join another one, that that would automatically unyoke me from the Catholic Church. I think hubby wouldn't go for the idea of annulment (not the ex-husband, I'm sure he couldn't care less) because he would think that because we are Lutherans I don't need to do that. That would be tying into not recognizing the authority of the Church. But like I said...sometimes I get just a bit nervous about the whole thing.
You're right Doc & Rick, I 'm starting to think about attending RCIA but I gotta say, I'm not sure how fast that could happen. My husband is going through a lot at work right now, he's an elder at church, he's active in lots of activities outside of work, we have a house we're constantly working on...
Of course these aren't valid reasons to avoid RCIA but he is stressed enough with all this stuff going on, and for me to add one more thing for him to stew about might really send him over the top! How to stealthily convince a man who is so logical and clear-thinking that maybe we should look elsewhere religion-wise...
By the way, when I went to join the Church they didn't call it RCIA yet. It was called Catholic Inquiry Class, and it was held at Our Lady of the Snows. I saw an ad for it in the paper and I made up my mind to go *very* spontaneously at the last minute. We used a book called "Christ Among Us". Is that still a good one? I saw it at the used bookstore yesterday and almost bought it! I wonder how hubby would have reacted to that?
The record of my confirmation is at Blessed Sacrament in Belleville IL. My confirmation name is Mary. I figured there couldn't be any better woman to look up to from my depths of sin.
So, haven't been kidnapped by the CIA, but does being kidnapped by aliens count? 
Last edited on Fri Apr 11th, 2008 04:59 pm by swordswoman
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AnnieO
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CajunRick
Network Helper
| Joined: | Fri Sep 29th, 2006 |
| Location: | Houma, Louisiana USA |
| Posts: | 5314 |
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Posted: Fri Apr 11th, 2008 05:43 pm |
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swordswoman wrote: I think hubby wouldn't go for the idea of annulment (not the ex-husband, I'm sure he couldn't care less) because he would think that because we are Lutherans I don't need to do that. That would be tying into not recognizing the authority of the Church. But like I said...sometimes I get just a bit nervous about the whole thing.
You don't need to annul your current marriage, only your prior one. You need to gain Church recognition for your current marriage either through convalidation, which is essentially renewing your vows in the presence of a priest, or a process called Radical Sanation which is much more complicated. If you can have your first marriage declared null (which looks like it should be fairly clear-cut, but not necessarily quick) and if your husband is willing to have a Catholic renewal of your vows, your marriage situation will be relatively easy to resolve.
____________________
Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
Luquette Lane
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swordswoman
Member
| Joined: | Tue Feb 19th, 2008 |
| Location: | Williamsburg, Virginia USA |
| Posts: | 14 |
| First Name: | AnnieO | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Lutheran, Mormon (!), Catholic, Buddhist (!), Lutheran |
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Posted: Sat Apr 12th, 2008 03:30 pm |
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Hi Rick,
Right, I didn't say that very well did I?  I know that my current husband and I don't have to have an annulment, but I was thinking that he wouldn't want to have me go through it with my ex, because he'd think it wouldn't be necessary because we're Lutheran and my doing it would be some sort of an acknowledgement of the authority of the Church. Got a reply back form my ex, and he says he thinks he was baptized. "why do you ask" he said. So I'll say, "BECAUSE YOU'RE A B#*ST@R&D and OUR MARRIAGE WAS TOTALLY FALSE!" Just kidding!!!
My daughter and her husband had their marriage convalidated in the Church a couple years ago and that seemed to be pretty straightforward. But they don't have former spouses or anything, so of course I guess it was pretty easy.
So it seems like I gotta figure out how to start the annulment process with the least scandalization as far as hubby is concerned. You know, telling him I believe I need it done even though "we're not members of the Church" and "we have to live like brother and sister" -- all that innocuous stuff. (ha ha) That's probably gonna take a while...
Radical sanation? Ouch, that sounds painful!  I'll have to look that one up.
Have a GREAT day!!!
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AnnieO
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CajunRick
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| Joined: | Fri Sep 29th, 2006 |
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Posted: Sat Apr 12th, 2008 10:51 pm |
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swordswoman wrote: I know that my current husband and I don't have to have an annulment, but I was thinking that he wouldn't want to have me go through it with my ex, because he'd think it wouldn't be necessary because we're Lutheran and my doing it would be some sort of an acknowledgement of the authority of the Church.
Frankly, it's none of his business. He does not have to participate or give his consent. Your seeking a declaration of nullity on your first marriage is seeking a recognition by the Church of what you already believe, that your first marriage was not a sacrament. You do not need to seek that recognition merely to be validly married in the Church; you need to do it to seek freedom and healing from the bonds of an invalid marriage. And the Church does not "annul" the marriage (although that's the common term); it recognizes a fact that a marriage, although legally valid, never contained a sacramental component.
Got a reply back form my ex, and he says he thinks he was baptized. "why do you ask" he said. So I'll say, "BECAUSE YOU'RE A B#*ST@R&D and OUR MARRIAGE WAS TOTALLY FALSE!" Just kidding!!!
That may remove the possibility of the Pauline and Petrine Privileges, but it does not change the facts of the marriage. A Declaration of Nullity is still possible.
Radical sanation? Ouch, that sounds painful! I'll have to look that one up.
It's not relevant in cases involving a prior marriage, so it's most likely irrelevant to your situation. It involves declaring a marriage sacramental from its inception, where a convalidation "sacramentalizing" a defective marriage. Radical sanation depends on there being no impediments to a sacramental marriage, and a prior marriage that has not been declared null prior to the current marriage is a very big impediment.
Here's the situation as the Church see it.
The Church considers every marriage a valid, sacramental marriage until proven otherwise.
The Church believes that nothing short of death can dissolve a sacramental marriage.
You married your first husband. He is still alive. The marriage has not been declared null. Therefore, you are presumed to be still married.
You married your second husband. You committed bigamy. You presumably were already validly married. Your second marriage cannot be made legitimate in any way, shape, or form until either your first husband dies or your first marriage is recognized as invalid from its inception. That's where a Declaration of Nullity comes in. The Church will look for a flaw that prevented a sacrament from taking place, and judge accordingly. If a flaw is not found, the declaration will be denied. That doesn't seem likely in your case (in my opinion, which of course counts for nothing).
If your first husband dies or your first marriage is declared null, that does not validate your second marriage. Your vows were exchanged at a time that you were impeded from giving them. You could not commit yourself to your second husband because you were already married. Therefore you will have to be married again in the presence of an official Church witness. If your husband is adamantly opposed to renewing your vows in a Catholic church, the bishop can grant permission in advance for the renewal to take place elsewhere. For example, your daughter could serve as the official Church witness, but such arrangements must be made in advance and approved by the bishop. Radical sanation is not a possibility because the original vows were flawed. A new exchange of vows is required and with the bishop's prior consent, it can take place anywhere, but of course the easiest is in a Catholic church before a Catholic priest or deacon.
The Church will bend over backwards to accommodate you and your husband, but it cannot compromise on the teachings of Jesus Christ. What God has joined, man must not divide.
Perhaps the better question is why do Lutherans ignore Jesus' teaching?
Last edited on Sat Apr 12th, 2008 10:55 pm by CajunRick
____________________
Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
Luquette Lane
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swordswoman
Member
| Joined: | Tue Feb 19th, 2008 |
| Location: | Williamsburg, Virginia USA |
| Posts: | 14 |
| First Name: | AnnieO | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Lutheran, Mormon (!), Catholic, Buddhist (!), Lutheran |
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Posted: Fri Apr 18th, 2008 10:21 pm |
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Dang, it's hard for me to log in; over the past few days I've typed in my username and password and it doesn't log me in anyway! I've clicked the "reset cookie" thing too. Oh well.
Anyway, Rick, I detect a note of impatience in your reply; of course I deserve much more castigation than that...
I understand what you're saying about the presumed validity of the first marriage. That's why I'm writing, but I know there's not much comfort to give because y'all are saying I'm still Catholic and sinning by being married again. I will do my best to broach the subject with hubby at a relatively good time, to get this all out in the open and God willing, resolved.
God's blessings! 
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AnnieO
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CajunRick
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| Joined: | Fri Sep 29th, 2006 |
| Location: | Houma, Louisiana USA |
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Posted: Sat Apr 19th, 2008 03:08 pm |
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swordswoman wrote: Anyway, Rick, I detect a note of impatience in your reply; of course I deserve much more castigation than that...
Then I apologize. There was no impatience or intent at castigation. You find yourself in a difficult position from which there is no easy extrication. The problem will not go away, nor is there any easy alternative. I was only attempting to explain from the perspective of the Church. Solutions are available but they are not easy, thank God! At least our Church does not consider either life or marriage disposable, as our society does!
Personally, I don't like the term "living in sin" for those in irregular marriages. It's for God to judge, not us. It was not your intention to enter into a sinful relationship. Would it be less sinful for you to abandon your marriage and family? I think it's pretty clear that the greatest "sin" was the bad choices made in your first marriage, and the fact that you did not make good choices then, or in the process of rectifying that situation. But then again, you didn't know you needed to at that time.
Now, you have to play catch-up. You have to do what you can to make a bad situation right. I don't envy you.
So again, I apologize if my tone gave the impression of castigation or impatience. That was truly not my intention.
____________________
Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
Luquette Lane
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