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Polifemus
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| Joined: | Mon Feb 25th, 2008 |
| Location: | Portage, Indiana USA |
| Posts: | 5 |
| First Name: | Polifemus | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Roman Catholic, Unitarian, Revert to Roman Catholicism |
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Posted: Wed Feb 27th, 2008 01:47 pm |
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I am a divoced, Catholic revert who is filing with the marriage tribunal for a declaration of invalidity on my first and only marriage.
I am required to provide four witnesses who knew my spouse and I before and during our marriage.
I've thought of asking my wife's sister and her husband to serve as witnesses. They can attest to my wife's family history, her sexual preferences, and desire not to have children.
Though my wife left me and divorced me, I still have a good relationship with her family and their children. I try to act with charity towards them and do not wish to do unnecessary harm.
My wife's family comes from a Plymouth Brethren background but her sister's family attends an Evangelical Free Church. They believe in total depravity, eternal security, salvation by grace through faith in Jesus Christ.
Without their input, all the witnesses would come from the Catholic side of my family. Why I still think that I have a case without it, her sister's input would be invaluable and would allow input from the nonCatholice side.
I have done some reading on Protestant views on divorce and invalid marriages. But I hesitate to contact them as I am concerned that by asking them to be witnesses without having a better knowledge of whether their is such a thing as an invalid marriage.
It is my understanding that some Protestants believe that if one divorces one's spouse and marries another, one commits adultery against the first spouse but that the second marriage is still a marriage.
If they believe this, then by participating they may feel that I am asking them to condone adultery. This, of course, would damage my relationship with them and the rest of their family.
I am more concerned about this than whether the Catholic Church has the right to declare a marriage invalid.
I would appreciate the forum's input about using nonCatholic witnesses, the Scriptural bases for invalid marriages and for the authority to declare a marriage invalid.
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rbo4u2
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| Joined: | Tue Jan 16th, 2007 |
| Location: | Sunnyvale, California USA |
| Posts: | 453 |
| First Name: | Rich | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Formerly Christian & Missionary Alliance then became Presbyterian |
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Posted: Wed Feb 27th, 2008 02:10 pm |
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My prayers go out to you my friend. I am also in a similar situation. It's bit of an issue with me and one I need to deal with myself. I'll hold you in my prayers.
Rich
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Intercessor
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| Joined: | Tue Sep 25th, 2007 |
| Location: | Southcentral, Kentucky USA |
| Posts: | 1238 |
| First Name: | Becky | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Southern Baptist, Catholic |
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Posted: Wed Feb 27th, 2008 02:39 pm |
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Hello, Polifemus. Welcome to the forum.
I have a loved one coming into the Church who had two prior marriages and whose spouse also had two prior marriages. I was asked to be one of the persons a tribunal could contact about issues. It can get sticky and one's mind begins to race down many paths, imagining all sorts of interpersonal possibilities.
Finally, I resolved it by deciding that if contacted and questioned, I would simply tell the truth as I knew it and then let it go. Maybe I oversimplified the thing; but, somehow, I found peace in that way.
If you believe your sister-in-law to be an honest woman, perhaps you could simply ask her if she is willing to give honest answers to their questions, explaining that your friendship will not be damaged if she prefers not to be contacted. If she wants no part of it, she can say so.
God bless,
BeckyLast edited on Wed Feb 27th, 2008 02:47 pm by Intercessor
____________________
"He who will persevere unto the end is not he who will never fall, but he who after every fall will humble himself and rise again, relying on the infinite strength of God." Divine Intimacy, p. 885 Father Gabriel, O.C.D.
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David W. Emery
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| Joined: | Fri Sep 29th, 2006 |
| Location: | Brownsville, Texas USA |
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| First Name: | David | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Catholic |
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Posted: Wed Feb 27th, 2008 06:01 pm |
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Intercessor wrote:If contacted and questioned, I would simply tell the truth as I knew it and then let it go.
This is exactly what a tribunal wants to hear. A declaration of nullity is not a divorce; it does not presume to dissolve a marriage. It’s not about deciding who was to blame, and it does not divide up the household. It simply decides, on the basis of the objective evidence, whether a given, already civilly dissolved marriage was sacramental according to Catholic Christian principles. Anyone with knowledge that would help in establishing the facts is welcome to testify.
I recommend this book to both principals and witnesses, regardless of their faith history: Annulments and the Catholic Church: Straight Answers to Tough Questions, by Edward Peters. It’s short, easy to read, and delivers solid explanations of all the essentials.
David
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Traveler
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| Joined: | Fri Jun 8th, 2007 |
| Location: | Prairie Du Chien, Wisconsin USA |
| Posts: | 19 |
| First Name: | Jean | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | North American Baptist, Evangelical Free |
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Posted: Wed Feb 27th, 2008 06:36 pm |
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I am writing as a member of the Evangelical Free Church. Generally speaking the Evangelical Free Church is pretty relaxed about divorce. We certainly don't condone it and (depending on the congregation) may offer various types of marriage counseling; however a divorced person is not considered an adulterer after remarriage. From my experience there are quite a few divorced people in the Evangelical Free Church. The more common response is, "I am sure God has some one better for you".
When you talk to your ex-wife’s sister, you may want to be prepared to explain the how, what and why of the annulment process. This is often misunderstood by non-Catholics.
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BeProf
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| Joined: | Thu Jan 3rd, 2008 |
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| Posts: | 75 |
| First Name: | Ed | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Independent Fundamental Baptist - Atheism - Christian & Missionary Alliance |
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Posted: Wed Feb 27th, 2008 07:34 pm |
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Generally speaking Protestant churches don't believe that there is such a thing as an "invalid" marriage. As long as it was legal, it was valid.
That having been said, there are three broad categories of opinion regarding divorce in Protestant churches:
1 - None at all. Similar to the Catholic position but without the possibility of annulment. In situations where personal safety is an issue, a spouse may, generally, seek legal separation but not divorce.
2 - Yes, but only in cases of adultery and desertion by an unbelieving spouse. These are usually called "scriptural divorces." That having been said, while divorce is sometimes permitted it is never (or hardly ever) encouraged. Our first impulse should always be to save the marriage and divorce should only be sought after and permitted after all reasonable hope of reconciliation has been exhausted. This is both my position and the position of the church that I belong too. This was also, as far as I can tell, the original position of the Plymouth Brethren, but there seems to be some division now between the first position and this one.
3 - Anything goes. Describes churches who either theologically believe that pretty much any divorce for any reason is permissible or hold a "scriptural divorce" view that they don't really enforce.
It's also worth noting that, generally, anything one did before one "got saved" is seen as being completely forgiven and "under the blood." If you were an unchristian and got divorced and remarried seventeen times, that doesn't matter. The person you're with now is your wife in the eyes of God.
Additionally, if one was divorced before one becomes a christian, then one *may* be permitted to remarry, depending on the church. Whether or not you're allowed to depends on a great many factors, the particular church and pastor's theology, how long ago it was, was there children, etc.
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CajunRick
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| Joined: | Fri Sep 29th, 2006 |
| Location: | Houma, Louisiana USA |
| Posts: | 5353 |
| First Name: | Rick (& Kermie) | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Lifetime Catholic, Latin Rite |
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Posted: Thu Feb 28th, 2008 12:41 am |
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Polifemus wrote: It is my understanding that some Protestants believe that if one divorces one's spouse and marries another, one commits adultery against the first spouse but that the second marriage is still a marriage.
If they believe this, then by participating they may feel that I am asking them to condone adultery. This, of course, would damage my relationship with them and the rest of their family.
I am more concerned about this than whether the Catholic Church has the right to declare a marriage invalid.
If you were to remarry, would you invite them to your wedding? Would they stand outside with protest signs because attending would "condone adultery"? Do they believe that your divorce is sinful?
The Church does not dissolve valid marriages. It recognizes a defect in a marriage that makes it sacramentally invalid from the start. In other words, from the sacramental viewpoint of the Church, the marriage was never valid at all.
What kind of flaw? Well, when you and your wife were married (if you were married in the Catholic Church), your wife took a vow to accept children lovingly as a gift from God. I take it from your message that she reneged on that promise. That means her consent was flawed.
Had you known she would not accept children, would you have had doubts about marrying her? If so, then your consent was flawed.
Since both of you gave a flawed consent, the marriage was defective from the start. When the Church issues a Declaration of Nullity, it is a recognition that the marriage was never a valid sacrament. If, on the other hand, the Church determines that the consent was valid, the ruling would most likely be that the marriage is valid and no power in heaven or on earth can dissolve the sacramental bond of marriage as long as you both live.
And as far as your wife's family is concerned, you are not asking them to condone a remarriage. You are asking them to help you obtain a ruling from your Church that the marriage was never a sacrament. No one says that you must get married again after an annulment. You can remain single, or enter religious life, or even become a priest.
However, if as you say, your wife didn't want to have children, and did not indicate this prior to the wedding, the chances are their testimony would not be necessary. The Church considers the openness to children a vital part of a Christian marriage and refusal to be open to children is often sufficient grounds for a Declaration of Nullity.
If you were not married by a priest in a Catholic church, you can file for a Declaration of Nullity based on a Defect of Form, meaning that a valid Catholic marriage must take place in the presence of a priest to be valid. As long as you didn't formally renounce your Catholic faith, witnesses may not be required at all. However, your diocese may require witness statements before accepting the application.
A final point: If you have maintained a friendly relationship with them, why not ask? The worst they can do is say no.
____________________
Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
Luquette Lane
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Polifemus
Member
| Joined: | Mon Feb 25th, 2008 |
| Location: | Portage, Indiana USA |
| Posts: | 5 |
| First Name: | Polifemus | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Roman Catholic, Unitarian, Revert to Roman Catholicism |
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Posted: Thu Feb 28th, 2008 01:24 pm |
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Thanks for your input, David. I haven't read the book you mentioned. I'll have to take a look at it.
I have read another book, Annulment - A Step-By-Step Guide for Divorced Catholics, by Rev. Ronald T. Smith, Instructor for Marriage Cases, Archdiocese of Hartford, Connecticut. In addition to doing some Internet research my diocese also gave me material to read.
But I thought that I would contact the CHNI Forum as the members would be able to offer a unique perspective on this matter. If I've learned one thing from watching The Journey Home on EWTN, it is that it is important to understand the other denominations point of view and definition of terms ( or lack of definition).
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Polifemus
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| Joined: | Mon Feb 25th, 2008 |
| Location: | Portage, Indiana USA |
| Posts: | 5 |
| First Name: | Polifemus | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Roman Catholic, Unitarian, Revert to Roman Catholicism |
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Posted: Thu Feb 28th, 2008 01:25 pm |
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Thanks, Rich. I will do the same for you.
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Polifemus
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| Joined: | Mon Feb 25th, 2008 |
| Location: | Portage, Indiana USA |
| Posts: | 5 |
| First Name: | Polifemus | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Roman Catholic, Unitarian, Revert to Roman Catholicism |
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Posted: Thu Feb 28th, 2008 01:27 pm |
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Thanks. Should I choose to contact my ex-wife's sister I will certainly included an explanation of the annulment process.
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Polifemus
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| Joined: | Mon Feb 25th, 2008 |
| Location: | Portage, Indiana USA |
| Posts: | 5 |
| First Name: | Polifemus | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Roman Catholic, Unitarian, Revert to Roman Catholicism |
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Posted: Thu Feb 28th, 2008 02:06 pm |
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I appreciate the breakdown into broad categories. So much depends on the individual church. I would certainly say that my sister-in-law's Father would be in the "Not at All" camp.
I will certainly get my pastor's advice as he knows the detailed facts in the case.
As a neophyte to the forum world, I also realized the importance of exercising discretion in what one posts.
This morning I tried to find some of the Protestant sites I viewed earlier in my Web research. I discovered this morning that if one puts in the string "invalid" + "marriage" + "protestant" in the Google search engine, the link to this topic appears at the top of the list! 
So this forum can be viewed across the entire world. I didn't think that Proverbs 15:22, Plans fail for lack of counsel, but with many advisers they succeed." (NIV), might have such implications. 
Last edited on Thu Feb 28th, 2008 02:24 pm by Polifemus
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