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crazy66coolie
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| Joined: | Mon Nov 5th, 2007 |
| Location: | Hove, United Kingdom |
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| First Name: | Neil | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Became a Christian in 1991; got baptised by total immersion ... |
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Posted: Fri Jan 4th, 2008 02:27 pm |
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Hi guys
I know that the subject sounds like as if I am just mucking you about, but I am trying to find out about what the Catholic Church is teaching about marriage.
Er, I know that God hates divorce for sure, but can anyone tell me something about that? Uh, suppose someone went through a divorce, which was not his or her intention, is he or she allowed to re-marry? I don't know whether the Catholic Church allows this or not.
It's just that I know a couple from years ago - they both were divorcees, and they got married. I am a bit confused about this issue, because I know that the Bible teaches that God loathes divorce, if I am right about that.
Anyone helps me with that one? Many thanks.
Love
Neil x
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HelenRose
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| Joined: | Mon Dec 17th, 2007 |
| Location: | Cedaredge, Colorado USA |
| Posts: | 30 |
| First Name: | Helen | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Christian Church, Catholic Church |
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Posted: Fri Jan 4th, 2008 03:22 pm |
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There are no easy answers to your questions about the Church and marriage. You need to first understand the Church’s position about the love between a man and woman. A good place to start is by reading the book; "Theology of the Body for Beginners" by Christopher West.
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crazy66coolie
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| Joined: | Mon Nov 5th, 2007 |
| Location: | Hove, United Kingdom |
| Posts: | 36 |
| First Name: | Neil | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Became a Christian in 1991; got baptised by total immersion ... |
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Posted: Fri Jan 4th, 2008 03:44 pm |
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HelenRose
Many thanks for this one. I'll try and buy that book later this weekend. God bless you, my friend.
Love
Neil x
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Dave Armstrong
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| Joined: | Fri Nov 2nd, 2007 |
| Location: | Melvindale, Michigan USA |
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| First Name: | Dave | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Evangelical (1977): Diverse Protestant Influences / Catholic in 1990 |
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Posted: Fri Jan 4th, 2008 06:11 pm |
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The Catholic Church teaches that a valid, sacramental marriage between two baptized Christians is permanent, or indissoluble. No power on earth can dissolve it. This is based on the explicit teaching of Jesus. In the passage where Jesus states “unless the marriage is unlawful” (Mt 19:9), Catholics believe He was referring to a situation where a marriage was never actually entered into in the first place. Matthew 19:6 states: “So they are no longer two, but one flesh. Therefore, what God has joined together, no human being must separate.”
For this reason, the Catholic Church opposes divorce. An annulment is not merely a “Catholic divorce,” but rather, a declaration by the Church that a valid, sacramental marriage was never present (because several conditions must be met for this to occur: e.g., free will, truthfulness, mental health, etc.). A similar distinction is found in civil law across the entire Christian world. The Old Testament dichotomy between a concubine and a wife is somewhat analogous to our distinction between civil and sacramental marriage (Gen 21:10-14, Jud 8:31, 1 Cor 7:15).
Likewise, in Ezra 10:1-19,44 (cf. 9:1-2,14-15), many Israelites “sent away” the “foreign women” they had married, not simply because they were foreigners, but because they caused them to become corrupted by false religions and idolatry (see. e.g., Dt 17:17, Neh 13:23-28). This was essentially an annulment, as opposed to a divorce.
For more along these lines, see:
Biblical Evidence for the Prohibition of Divorce (+ Discussion)
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CajunRick
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| Joined: | Fri Sep 29th, 2006 |
| Location: | Houma, Louisiana USA |
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Posted: Fri Jan 4th, 2008 11:07 pm |
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Dave Armstrong wrote: An annulment is not merely a “Catholic divorce,” but rather, a declaration by the Church that a valid, sacramental marriage was never present (because several conditions must be met for this to occur: e.g., free will, truthfulness, mental health, etc.).
Actually, the Church doesn't officially use the term "annulment" (it doesn't appear in the Catechism at all). The Church issues what is called a "Declaration of Nullity" which recognizes that a sacramental marriagne never took place. She also issues what is called a "Radical Sanation" which is a recognition that a marriage which appeared not to be sacramental at the beginning actually was sacramental.
A Declaration of Nullity requires an investigation of the diocesan Tribunal and approval from the Provincial Tribunal, with the right of appeal to the Roman Curia. A Radical Sanation requires the direct approval of the diocesan Ordinary (presiding bishop).
In legal terminology, a court issues an annulment to declare an apparently valid marriage invalid (remember Britney Spears' annulment of her 55-hour marriage). The Church says a marriage was never sacramental, not even for a moment. It is a fine distinction, but it is very real. And as we all know, the precise use of words is very important.
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Rick Luquette
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Dave Armstrong
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| Joined: | Fri Nov 2nd, 2007 |
| Location: | Melvindale, Michigan USA |
| Posts: | 1665 |
| First Name: | Dave | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Evangelical (1977): Diverse Protestant Influences / Catholic in 1990 |
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Posted: Mon Jan 7th, 2008 02:19 pm |
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That's excellent clarifying information. Thanks, Rick.
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I'm happy to offer whatever theological & personal assistance I can. My blog, Biblical Evidence for Catholicism, contains 2000+ papers & web pages (absolutely free) & 16 apologetic books (for sale):
http://www.biblicalcatholic.com/
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ChildoftheCreator
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| Joined: | Tue Jul 10th, 2007 |
| Location: | Minnesota USA |
| Posts: | 16 |
| First Name: | Hillary | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Lutheran |
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Posted: Sat Jan 12th, 2008 06:49 pm |
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Are marriages taking place in a protestant church are not sacrementally binding? I know several people who were in situations where their husbands abused them and they got a divorce. They remarried again, one because she needed to support herself. It probably has to be considered on an individual basis, but could abuse be recognized as mental health issues on the part of the husband and therefore the marriage be considered invalid?
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CajunRick
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Posted: Sat Jan 12th, 2008 09:26 pm |
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ChildoftheCreator wrote: Are marriages taking place in a protestant church are not sacrementally binding? I know several people who were in situations where their husbands abused them and they got a divorce. They remarried again, one because she needed to support herself. It probably has to be considered on an individual basis, but could abuse be recognized as mental health issues on the part of the husband and therefore the marriage be considered invalid?
A Tribunal must investigate the circumstances on an individual basis to make the determination. The marriage of two non-Catholics in a Protestant church (or before a judge) may indeed be sacramental since they are the ministers of the marriage themselves, and they are not obliged to be married before a priest.
If one of the parties is Catholic, it is more likely that a marriage in a Protestant church would be invalid, but an investigation is still required.
In circumstances where one spouse is abusive, there are probably other circumstances which would invalidate the marriage. Seldom does a partner become abusive without signs being evident before the marriage took place. Most often the marriage takes place under a form of duress ("We had already paid for the dress", "The invitations were already sent", "Mom and dad really liked him", etc.) that would make the consent flawed and invalidate the marriage.
The first step is to visit a priest or another qualified person to discuss the particular circumstances and begin the process.
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Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
Luquette Lane
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abbycat
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| Joined: | Thu Jan 17th, 2008 |
| Location: | Maryland USA |
| Posts: | 147 |
| First Name: | abby | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Non-Denomational Charismatic, Lutheran |
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Posted: Fri Jan 18th, 2008 12:27 am |
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Hi there ....
I am so ignorant of my understanding of Catholic theology, that I really can't speak to that directly. But, as one who has been a 30 year non-denominational charismatic, at present an Evangelical Lutheran feeling very interested in the Catholic faith, I can tell you that I am divorced. I was divorced 2 years ago after a 40 year marriage. It was quite possibly the most horrid experience I've ever had to go through. There are those in my church community who tell me that "in time you will find someone." They do not understand my heart on this .... to me, fully knowing and believing that God hates divorce, I will always feel married in my heart. Just because I am "released" from this "legal" part does not mean that God considers the real covenant we made before Him null and void. I will remain alone. My x-husband has a serious personality disorder and needs genuine help. His situation is far sadder than mine ... God has carried me through this nightmare and placed me in a place of peace and contentment ... and is leading me on a new journey.
abby
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Dave Armstrong
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| Joined: | Fri Nov 2nd, 2007 |
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| First Name: | Dave | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Evangelical (1977): Diverse Protestant Influences / Catholic in 1990 |
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Posted: Fri Jan 18th, 2008 10:48 pm |
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Hi Abby,
You'd be perfectly accepted in the Catholic Church. It is the remarriage after divorce that often clashes with what we believe about the indissolubility of marriage and divorce. That's why Catholics have annulments rather than divorce: because we believe that a valid marriage cannot ever be dissolved. But some ostensible marriages are such that the requirements, as we see them, for a legitimate marriage, were missing from the oiutset.
Your sad marital situation (we know two couples very well where we believe there is a serious psychological disorder in the man that he is unwilling to face) could have been either. Practically speaking, if you do not plan on remarrying, it is not an issue at all with regard to possibly becoming a Catholic. It makes no difference. It's only the second marriage where it gets complicated, from the Catholic perspective.
You need fellowship, healing, and understanding. I hope you find that here, and (should you decide that) in the Catholic Church as well.
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I'm happy to offer whatever theological & personal assistance I can. My blog, Biblical Evidence for Catholicism, contains 2000+ papers & web pages (absolutely free) & 16 apologetic books (for sale):
http://www.biblicalcatholic.com/
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CajunRick
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Posted: Sat Jan 19th, 2008 01:50 am |
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abbycat wrote: They do not understand my heart on this .... to me, fully knowing and believing that God hates divorce, I will always feel married in my heart. Just because I am "released" from this "legal" part does not mean that God considers the real covenant we made before Him null and void. I will remain alone.
As Dave says, the Church recognizes that divorce is sometimes necessary for a variety of reasons including safety of the spouse, property rights, child custody, and a lot of other very legitimate reasons. But the Church also recognizes that the termination of the legal, contractural arrangement does not end a sacramental marriage.
Let's say, for example, that one of the spouses has a problem with substance abuse. If there are signs of abuse evident at the time of the marriage that are ignored or made to seem insignificant, that might well be grounds for a declaration of nullity. However, if the abuse is not present at the time of the marriage but becomes a problem a decade later, it falls under the "for better or worse, in sickness and in health, till death do us part" situation (even though Catholics do not explicitly take vows in that form). In order for there to be a Declaration of Nullity, tbe problem must be manifest at the time vows are exchanged. If it it not evident then, subsequent action must indicate that one spouse did not intend to fulfill the vows. For example, if one spouse refuses to have children after vowing to accept children, a Declaration of Nullity may be issued.
If you have no intention to remarry, it is not an issue. You may pursue full communion with the Catholic Church with a clear conscience. I would recommend, however, that you seek a Declaration of Nullity just to keep your options open. It is extremely difficult for someone who lives alone to meet someone and have to choose between a relationship and the Catholic faith. A Declaration of Nullity also frees you to pursue a religious vocation, if that should be your future choice.
After my mother died, my father clearly stated that he would live the rest of his life alone. He met his soulmate (also widowed) when he was 78 years old; they married and had five wonderful years together before he got sick, and she took care of him until his death. Due to health issues they were not sexually active, so they could have chosen to live together as brother and sister without benefit of marriage (and it would have been a tremendous financial benefit), but they chose not to give that example to their grandchildren. They were married in the Church with all their children and grandchildren present, and my step-mother remains a part of my life. She attended my graduation when I got my Certification in Pastoral Studies, and I was very proud to have her there along with my mother-in-law, my daughter, and my niece.
So never say never, and keep your options open. Obtaining a Declaration of Nullity (if you truly have grounds) will do no harm, and may avoid complications in the future. But meanwhile, you may pursue full communion with the Catholic Church with a clear conscience.
Last edited on Sat Jan 19th, 2008 01:53 am by CajunRick
____________________
Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
Luquette Lane
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abbycat
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| Joined: | Thu Jan 17th, 2008 |
| Location: | Maryland USA |
| Posts: | 147 |
| First Name: | abby | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Non-Denomational Charismatic, Lutheran |
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Posted: Sat Jan 19th, 2008 03:54 am |
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Thank you both for your kind replies. I appreciate the thought and care you put into them. The problem for me would be that even if there was an annullment, that does not make it null and void within my own heart and soul. After 40 years, 3 grown children, and 1 precious granddaughter .... I don't see how anyone, or any faith, can change that. And, quite honestly, I don't want it changed. I know you said "never say never" and I totally understand where you are coming from. For me, it is a choice to remain alone. By alone, I mean without a "legal" spouse; after that length of time, to me there will always be a covenant marriage. I don't know how it can be otherwise. I have a lot of girlfriends and a wonderful church (should I remain in that one), a precious, growing and changing relationship with our Lord, and a life so blessed that it would have been unimaginable 10 years ago. Life was so very difficult in my marriage, that to remain I would indeed have either wound up in a mental hospital or perhaps even taken my own life. Should my former husband ever decide to get the help he so desperately needs, and should God lead in that direction .... I would consider a very slow, cautious meeting. There would be many things he would have to do, and he and I would have to do before I would consider remarrying him, but, to shut that door permanently just isn't what I feel is God's best for me. Thank you both again and God bless you ...
abby
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