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Dale Norton
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| Joined: | Thu Nov 9th, 2006 |
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Posted: Thu Nov 9th, 2006 04:13 pm |
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Greetings,
I am not sure where to turn for advice, but looking over many Catholic web sites showed me that this one is often referenced for information. I am a 34 year old man who has been happily married to my wife for eleven years. We have two children.
We are all members of a Reformed Baptist church in the Dallas, TX area. Up until last month I thought all was good for us. It was then I found out that my wife was planning on converting to the Catholic church. She had entered something called RCIA and was going to classes one night a week hen I thought she was visiting her mother. Only by accident did I find out what was really happening.
We talked about it some, but I can honestly say that right now I cannot imagine that our marriage will survive this. My faith teaches me that the Catholic church is not a "true" church. No, I'm not some "Jack Chick" follower, I know a whole lot about the Catholic church from studies I have done in the past. I read a lot about the early church and the reformation in general.
I cannot accept that "Salvation by faith alone" is not absolute truth. I can't see that baptism saves, nor that the doctrines of Mary and Purgatory are not outright slander to God. I'm not here to debate or insult you, though. I know that many Catholics are devout in their faith and do trust Christ for their salvation. It is the institution that I object to, not the people.
My problem is what to do about my wife's conversion. I can't accept it, but I don't want to force her to choose between me and the calling she seems to feel is on her heart. People tell me to just accept her decision and look for common ground between us. Well, there isn't any where it comes to this.
Now, she doesn't attend church with me since has to go to "Mass class" on Sunday. I have made excuses for her at church. Her friends don't even know and I'm not about to tell them for her. This is all some big secret that she doesn't want to get out. It will alienate her from all her friends at our church and I know she really values their friendships. Our church just can't accept that the Catholic church isn't an illegitimate church. That's not an insult, just our denominational stand.
I would never divorce her, but I will consider our marriage "broken" if she does this. I plan to move into the basement. As much as I love her, I must obey God above all.
I want her to be happy, but not at the expense of making God angry. She knows how unhappy this makes me and that it has affected our relationship, but she still continues on.
I talked to my pastor about this and he told me to be the spiritual head of the house and tell her to stop. Part of me wants to, but I can't compel her to do something. I don't want her obedience, I want her to return to us.
Are there others out there who have had to make this type of hard decision?
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CajunRick
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| Joined: | Fri Sep 29th, 2006 |
| Location: | Houma, Louisiana USA |
| Posts: | 5353 |
| First Name: | Rick (& Kermie) | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Lifetime Catholic, Latin Rite |
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Posted: Thu Nov 9th, 2006 04:49 pm |
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Dale Norton wrote: Greetings,
Dale, I am not going to answer most of your questions since I have never been in your position. I have been a Catholic all my life (what we call a "cradle Catholic") and I am married to a cradle Catholic. We have practiced our faith with more or less intensity at various times, but we have never belonged to any other church or faith.
What I do want to do is welcome you here. As a moderator, I want you to know that we will treat you with respect. We will answer your questions honestly, and I would like to ask you to give us the same consideration.
I assume that you believe your wife is an intelligent, sincere woman. Do you believe that you owe her the consideration to believe that maybe she has discovered something that is contrary to what you have been taught?
We will not try to convert you against your wishes, nor will we brainwash or lie to you. A few of our beliefs are different from yours, but most are the same. Many (most) of us at one time or another held similar beliefs to yours, and found through honest investigation that they were wrong about the Catholic faith. I encourage you to read the conversion stories available from the CHN Homepage. I would also encourage you to take a look at the Faith Facts available from Catholics United for the Faith; the tracts available from Catholic Answers (click on the left side under "Library"; and to browse the Catechism of the Catholic Church.
Those are some places to start. Please feel free to ask questions and we'll do our best to answer them for you. There are more than a billion Catholics worldwide, and another half-billion Orthodox who share the same essential doctrines. How many members in your church?
I know a whole lot about the Catholic church from studies I have done in the past. I read a lot about the early church and the reformation in general.
Does your information come from objective sources? How accurate would your knowledge be if all you had learned about America came from Usama bin Laden? Maybe you need to take a look at the Catholic Church from a different perspective.
I cannot accept that "Salvation by faith alone" is not absolute truth. I can't see that baptism saves, nor that the doctrines of Mary and Purgatory are not outright slander to God. I'm not here to debate or insult you, though. I know that many Catholics are devout in their faith and do trust Christ for their salvation. It is the institution that I object to, not the people.
Please give us the consideration of an opportunity to present the Catholic perspective before you reject our Church's teachings. What you have learned in your Baptist church are not the teachings of the Catholic faith. Give us a chance to prove it, and your wife the respect she deserves by giving us a chance. Be open-minded with us, and we will be fair and honest with you.
Once again, welcome to CHN. We are truly happy to have you here.
____________________
Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
Luquette Lane
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Dale Norton
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Posted: Thu Nov 9th, 2006 05:05 pm |
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Thank you for that welcome. Trust me, I am not here to debate or start some fight. I am really here to try and understand how I might be able to save my marriage.
I assume that you believe your wife is an intelligent, sincere woman. Do you believe that you owe her the consideration to believe that maybe she has discovered something that is contrary to what you have been taught?
I do believe that she is intelligent and sincere. I also believe that she is deceived. With my own faith being what it is, I can have no other belief.
A few of our beliefs are different from yours, but most are the same. Many (most) of us at one time or another held similar beliefs to yours, and found through honest investigation that they were wrong about the Catholic faith.
I think many of our beliefs are the same on the surface, but if you scratch beneath it the reality is different. Like, we would say we are saved by the blood of Jesus and I think you might say you are saved through the Sacraments. You might not even see the difference in those two things, but we do.
I have read a lot of conversion stories both to and from the Catholic church. I know that people do have real reasons, but my main question is, if she knows that our family is at risk and still rushes ahead with this, is it honoring God? Doesn't she have some sort of responsibility to consider more than herself?
For instance, our kids go to the school that our church runs. At least until High School. When she converts, how will she feel about that? I have tried to ask her, but she just tells me we will handle that when we get there.
I am not saying that she has to choose me over what she thinks God is telling her to do, but should I at least factor in? She won't talk about any of this, even to her mother.
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bjbouwer
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| Joined: | Mon Oct 9th, 2006 |
| Location: | Wisconsin USA |
| Posts: | 54 |
| First Name: | Bonnie | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Christian Scientist, pinball Christian, RCC in 2006 |
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Posted: Thu Nov 9th, 2006 09:54 pm |
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Dale - I came from a fundamentalist background - Chick tracts and all -- so when I wanted to read about the Catholic church I was delighted to find things written by Protestants. They weren't going to be "tainted" by Catholic thinking. 8-)
May I suggest you read a book called Born Fundamentalist, Born Again Catholic by David Currie? Mr Currie did convert to the RCC and this is a good examination of the Catholic Church as seen through fundamentalist eyes.
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Bonnie in WI
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CajunRick
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| Joined: | Fri Sep 29th, 2006 |
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| First Name: | Rick (& Kermie) | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Lifetime Catholic, Latin Rite |
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Posted: Fri Nov 10th, 2006 12:34 am |
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Dale Norton wrote: Thank you for that welcome. Trust me, I am not here to debate or start some fight. I am really here to try and understand how I might be able to save my marriage.I assume that you believe your wife is an intelligent, sincere woman. Do you believe that you owe her the consideration to believe that maybe she has discovered something that is contrary to what you have been taught? I do believe that she is intelligent and sincere. I also believe that she is deceived. With my own faith being what it is, I can have no other belief.
If you are already coming to us with a mind that is closed even to the possibility that you might have something to learn from us, we will not be able to help you. Suppose you walk into a math classroom and tell the teacher, "I want you to teach me math, but I refuse to believe that two and two equal four." The teacher will not be able to teach you anything. If you expect us to accept as a basic premise that your wife is wrong in seeking the truth in the Catholic faith, we cannot offer you any assistance. If you would like to request our assistance with an open mind, there is a lot we have to offer. But if you are looking for ammunition to prove to your wife that she is being deceived by the Catholic faith, you've come to the wrong place.
A few of our beliefs are different from yours, but most are the same. Many (most) of us at one time or another held similar beliefs to yours, and found through honest investigation that they were wrong about the Catholic faith. I think many of our beliefs are the same on the surface, but if you scratch beneath it the reality is different. Like, we would say we are saved by the blood of Jesus and I think you might say you are saved through the Sacraments. You might not even see the difference in those two things, but we do.
I also believe that I am saved by the blood of Jesus shed on the altar of the cross. The sacraments do not save me. If I approach the sacraments without faith in Jesus as my Lord and Savior, the sacraments are worse than worthless. Does it surprise you to hear me say that?
Many people who receive the sacraments regularly will find themselves in hell, while many people who believe as you do but do their best to seek God with a sincere heart outside of the Catholic Church will share eternal joy in heaven. Does it surprise you to hear me say that?
These are the teachings of the Catholic Church.
I have read a lot of conversion stories both to and from the Catholic church. I know that people do have real reasons, but my main question is, if she knows that our family is at risk and still rushes ahead with this, is it honoring God? Doesn't she have some sort of responsibility to consider more than herself?
Her first obligation is to love God with her whole heart, soul, mind and strength, and to love her neighbor as herself. If she has come to believe that the best path for her to exercise Jesus' Law of Love, are you saying she should deny it? Didn't Jesus tell us that faith in him would separate parent from child, brother from brother, husband from wife? It doesn't sound to me like she is putting any pressure on you whatsoever. It sounds like you are seeking to put pressure on her to deny what she believes to be the truth because you do not also believe it. And at the same time, you refuse to even give her new-found beliefs open-minded consideration.
For instance, our kids go to the school that our church runs. At least until High School. When she converts, how will she feel about that? I have tried to ask her, but she just tells me we will handle that when we get there.
She is giving you an honest answer. The Church will not ask you to remove your children from their school, nor to change their faith. It will respect your and their faith decisions. Can you respect hers?
I am not saying that she has to choose me over what she thinks God is telling her to do, but should I at least factor in? She won't talk about any of this, even to her mother.
She will discuss it with you when you are ready. If you are starting with the belief that she is wrong, what kind of discussion can she possibly have?Last edited on Fri Nov 10th, 2006 02:16 pm by CajunRick
____________________
Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
Luquette Lane
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mrsbmoo
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| Joined: | Fri Sep 29th, 2006 |
| Location: | Virginia USA |
| Posts: | 311 |
| First Name: | Becky | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | former Methodist. RCA, Presbyterian, Holiness, Wesleyan... Catholic as of June ... |
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Posted: Fri Nov 10th, 2006 01:39 pm |
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What pains me most in your post is that you say you are moving into the basement. As a woman and a wife, that would say to me that my husband only loved me when I did what he told me to do. I know her choice is terribly shocking to you but this is the same woman you knew before you found out. Please don't shut her out and try to force her to go your way. That is as likely to destroy the marriage as anything. If what you believe is the truth, then won't calm reasoning with her work?
Remember Acts 5:38-39:
38And now I say unto you, Refrain from these men, and let them alone: for if this counsel or this work be of men, it will come to nought:
39But if it be of God, ye cannot overthrow it; lest haply ye be found even to fight against God.
As for your kids, my ex-husband is Baptist and my 3 tween and teen girls attend his church on his weekends. They very rarely feel that the 2 churches are in an adversarial postition. Neither myself or their Dad has forced them to become one or the other. I know you are wondering if my conversion caused the end of my first marriage. No, it happened before that. My husband left me for a married woman who he had gotten pregnant.
As to the kids' school, my oldest chose to go to the Catholic High School when given the choice between 2 schools with an excellent acedemic program: one was Reformed Episcopal and one was Catholic. The other 2 are homeschooled for the past 3 years after previously being in an evangelical Wesleyan school and a Reformed Episcopal school for the other years. The change in schools had to do with a move, and the birth of my youngest child, not my change of church. So, I wouldn't say that your kids are going to have a crisis in education either.
Please remain as calm as possible and much in prayer for your family. God is still in control. He can work it out in His good time.
____________________
Becky
Wife of Michael(called Moo) and stay at home mom to 5 daughters between 10 months and 17
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BodRod
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| Joined: | Mon Oct 2nd, 2006 |
| Location: | Apple Valley, California USA |
| Posts: | 813 |
| First Name: | Cliff | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Raised an SDA, then Generic Christian, finally at home with ... |
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Posted: Fri Nov 10th, 2006 02:09 pm |
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Hi Dale,
"Been there, done that" only in reverse. My wife and I were raised in the same protestant religion, had gone through their schools, worked for them, believed they were the one and only true church and so on. BTW, our church was a VERY STRONG anti-Catholic church. They published piles and piles of anti-Catholic books and magazine articles. One day I was online poking around amazon.com and I noticed a book named, Why Do Catholics Do That? By Kevin Orlin Johnson, Ph.D. I bought the book and started reading it. It took me a long time to finish the book. The problem was that I doubted just about everything I read. So, I checked everything against history and the Bible. I lost EVERY argument I had with the book/Church.
Because of my readings and then studies, covering 5+ years, I converted and my wife didn’t. She went through being VERY upset including verbal outbursts, sleeping on the couch, etc., etc., etc. I could tell from her comments that she was reacting from what she had been taught ABOUT the Catholic Church by another church, not what the actual teachings were of the Church. I could see that my wife’s reactions were coming out of fear rather than knowledge.
One day, after she quieted down from one of her verbal explosions, we went over the Nicene Creed line by line. In my view, the Creed is a summary of what the Church teaches and what the members believe. She did not object to a single line I read from the Creed.
As I progressed along my Journey, I would mention to various people I knew about my interest and studies in the Church. I did not meet a single person who objected to the teachings of the Church. They only objected to my becoming a member of the Church.
Jumping ahead in my story, it has been a couple of years now since I was accepted into the Church. I have mentioned a few things and activities regarding the Church from time to time. She has met a couple of people from the Church and she is now starting to ask questions.
If I may offer a suggestion, forget what you have been told ABOUT the Church. Get some books written by members of the Church and read the straight scoop on the teachings of the Church. Come to think of it, there is a new book out about the beliefs of the Church. I think it is called Catholicism for Dummies. The book is carried by Barnes and Nobel, in my area. Also, you might consider watching a few programs on EWTN. Then, make up your mind as to which way to go. In my church, people can attend RCIA without being obligated to join the Church. I don’t know if that is allowed everywhere but you could check into.
My point in all of this is, if you want to stay with your current church, fine. However, you will feel better about your situation and your decision if you prepare yourself first and then make an informed decision.
One word of caution, don’t try hiding behind the idea of "my church follows the entire Bible" or "I believe every word is inspired and a can be taken literally". Before I started my studies of the RCC, I looked at a wide range of religions. As I recall, I did not find a single church that followed ALL of the Bible word for word. They all have their interpretations, verses they skip, etc. As an example, Lev. 12: 2-5 or Ex. 20: 8-11 or Deut. 5: 12:15.
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Gratias agamus Domino Deo nostro.
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Dale Norton
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Posted: Fri Nov 10th, 2006 03:17 pm |
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I thank ya'll for your responses, even the ones that assume I'm a dominating male who is just looking to punish my wife. I can assure you I am not. I am concerned for her soul and MY believes force me to think that way. Asking me to deny my God-given convictions is just as unfair as me asking you to.
I'm certain that opens up hypocrit charges. After all, why don't I just let my wife do what she thinks God wants her to? My answer is that I love her and I am also called by God to be the spiritual head over her. God will judge me for my failings in this area. So, I tread lightly. I am not here asking for help in understanding why she is doing this or how I might learn more. I assure you I hae spent hundreds of hours reading Catholic material. I probably know the doctrines of the Catholic church better than most Catholics. I'm also well schooled in the early church and the Reformation, so my background is excellent. In fact, I was considering becoming a pastor before this all took place. My wife and I have talked many times about my dream, but that's another thing that is over now. No church would hire a pastor with a Catholic wife. So, yes, I am bitter that she took that away from me, but I'm also afraid for her.
I am hoping that I can hear from people who have gone through this and still had their marriage survive. I know we will be starting over. I am going to move to the basement not as punishment but to show her that all actions have consequences and this one has broken us. If she would like to try and start over, I'll be more than willing, but she has lost a lot of trust in my eyes because of this all.
The sad fact is I love her deeply and I am committed to being with her, but I'm no longer "in love" with her. I don't have the feelings that used to be there. Yes, this conversion is that big of a deal for me. I would never leave her or our two children, but I no longer look at her with adoration and delight. I now see someone that I am fond of and care for, but no more. That makes me deeply saddened.
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BodRod
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| Joined: | Mon Oct 2nd, 2006 |
| Location: | Apple Valley, California USA |
| Posts: | 813 |
| First Name: | Cliff | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Raised an SDA, then Generic Christian, finally at home with ... |
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Posted: Fri Nov 10th, 2006 04:42 pm |
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Hi Dale,
I have read and re-read your postings. I see in them fear of losing control, self-righteousness, closed mindedness and a strong need to dominate. I think you are lying to yourself and to your wife. In my view, you have problems of your own and in your marriage, which are significantly greater than your religious issues. It might be to your benefit if you worked on those problems first and later worked on the religious issues.
____________________
Gratias agamus Domino Deo nostro.
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Dale Norton
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Posted: Fri Nov 10th, 2006 04:49 pm |
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I respectfully disagree. I also see that this is not the forum I thought it was. I was asking for people who had gone through this type of trauma and made it through. I am looking for a way to save my marriage. So far what I hear is, let her do what she wants. No one says anything about honoring each other mutually or taking the other's needs into account. I have not stood in her way. I have issued no mandates. I have not told her I will sleep on a cot in the basement.
So, you may continue to attack me. I have not done anythign to warrant that, but it seems to be the case here. It was my mistake to come to here and expect anything but anti-protestant bashing.
Sorry for wasting your time. Bye. You may delete this thread if you like. I can see no value in continuing it.
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bjbouwer
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| Joined: | Mon Oct 9th, 2006 |
| Location: | Wisconsin USA |
| Posts: | 54 |
| First Name: | Bonnie | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Christian Scientist, pinball Christian, RCC in 2006 |
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Posted: Fri Nov 10th, 2006 05:02 pm |
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Dale Norton wrote: I was asking for people who had gone through this type of trauma and made it through. I am looking for a way to save my marriage.
My dh did not convert with me. He was initially shocked and angry when I brought up the possibility, but he didn't tell me what to do. Our agreement now is that he and the girls will not join with me.
I will continue to pray for your situation.
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Bonnie in WI
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BodRod
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| Joined: | Mon Oct 2nd, 2006 |
| Location: | Apple Valley, California USA |
| Posts: | 813 |
| First Name: | Cliff | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Raised an SDA, then Generic Christian, finally at home with ... |
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Posted: Fri Nov 10th, 2006 05:05 pm |
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Hi Dale,
<<So far what I hear is, let her do what she wants. No one says anything about honoring each other mutually or taking the other's needs into account. I have not stood in her way. I have issued no mandates. >>
My points exactly! Your postings sound like you, and your pastor, use religion as a club not as a system of improving one's life. I have not seen anything in your postings where you are your wife are coming to a mutual position of agreement. It all sounds to me like everything has to be your way or no way. My wife was a lot the same way. One day my older daughter suggested that my wife should be happy that I had become interested in a religion and that I had not taken up bar hopping with a trollop.
____________________
Gratias agamus Domino Deo nostro.
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BettyBoopToo
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| Joined: | Mon Oct 9th, 2006 |
| Location: | Camas/Washougal, Washington USA |
| Posts: | 538 |
| First Name: | Betty | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Fist Baptist/Calvary Babtist/Secular Confusion/ Roman Catholic |
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Posted: Sat Nov 11th, 2006 01:20 am |
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Dale Norton wrote: I respectfully disagree. I also see that this is not the forum I thought it was. I was asking for people who had gone through this type of trauma and made it through. I am looking for a way to save my marriage. So far what I hear is, let her do what she wants. No one says anything about honoring each other mutually or taking the other's needs into account. I have not stood in her way. I have issued no mandates. I have not told her I will sleep on a cot in the basement.
So, you may continue to attack me. I have not done anythign to warrant that, but it seems to be the case here. It was my mistake to come to here and expect anything but anti-protestant bashing.
Sorry for wasting your time. Bye. You may delete this thread if you like. I can see no value in continuing it.
Dale:
I hope you've not left for good, To answer your question about couples separated by their faith. Yes! There are many couples who live this unfortunate problem daily. It's only been about 3 hours since I've cried about it. I to worry about my husband's salvation. I don't normally discuss his beliefs with others though. He's my husband, I love him very much, I love our sons, but carry much pain at the devisions that faith in Jesus Christ have come between us.
I've cried the tears, and I continue to pray the prayer's. I have no idea why Jesus would lead us in a direction that has caused us to separate on our basic belief's and morals.
Do you trust Jesus? I'm going to assume you do. If Jesus is leading your wife in this different direction then Please give it some thought and alot of prayer. If this is not the will of God and not meant to be, Then It won't happen. If it is the will of God, Are you going to refuse him? Are you going to reject the calling that the savior has called your family too?
Surrendering our own will to God can be a most painful experience. And in the end is the most beautiful and peaceful.
It is my belief that every human on earth is on their own journey of faith, sometimes we take side trips, sometimes we're pleasantly surprised with what the Lord has in store for us. And the direction is not at all how we planned it.
There is a very wonderful book written by Scott & Kimberly Hahn called Rome Sweet Home. The Hahn's were presbyterians, Scott was a pastor. The book is about the pain and anguish they went through when Scott converted to the Catholic Church, What their marriage went through, Their near divorce, etc. You may be able to find some helpful information.
Also you can order an audio version of Scott's conversion here free for a small donation. https://secure.catholicity.com/mary/
If your heart & soul seeks the "Truth of Jesus Christ" then you will be willing to allow him to lead your family. At this point I think you feel certain of the truth where you are at. If it is the Truth and the will of the Lord our God, Then you have nothing to fear. your wife will return to your congregation. And all that's happened is you both have learned a few things about another faith. No harm done. If you find his truth is else where, I hope & pray your willing to follow him. Because if your not willing to follow him. Then I think you should be worried about your salvation.
I'll add your families prayer intentions to my list. I know it's painful and I do understand. His truth will set you free!
May his peace be with you
Betty
____________________
Patience
"Whenever anything disagreeable or displeasing happens to you, remember Christ crucified and be silent."
St. John of the Cross
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Talithacumi
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| Joined: | Sat Sep 30th, 2006 |
| Location: | Eastern Ohio, USA |
| Posts: | 268 |
| First Name: | Cheri | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Cradle Catholic - Latin Rite |
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Posted: Sat Nov 11th, 2006 03:41 am |
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Sigh... I imagine, Dale, that you have "left the building." But just in case you haven't...
I know you think you are being attacked here, but I assure you that this is not the intention of anyone on this board. I wish you would give us a chance. People want to help, but no one can help one who is not accepting of any help.
Dale, we want to welcome you here with open arms. Honest. But you have to give us - and your wife and the Catholic Church the benefit of the doubt. Please realize that there are two sides to every story and that yours is not the only side. Don't shut yourself off from your wife - in more ways than one. Read Ephesians 5 where it talks about husbands and wives - and don't begin and end with the phrase: "wives be submissive to your husbands." There's a whole lot more to that passage, and the next part of it is: "Husbands, love your wives as Christ loves the Church..." And how much did He love the Church? Enough to die for Her.
You say that you "want her to return to us." But maybe you need to return to her. She needs you now. And she doesn't need you to fight with her or to oppose her. She needs you to be the husband you are called to be. She needs your support and understanding. Certainly she should respect you, but you need to do the same.
Do you have any idea how this Catholic "thing" is probably torturing her? Have you even once consulted her about the confusion and pain she herself is likely dealing with? I assure you, what she is going through right now is no picnic. And the fact of your shunning her is just adding to her suffering. If anything, you should admire her bravery. Do you think anyone in their right mind would even consider becoming Catholic - especially today with all of the accusations and prejudices leveled at the Catholic Church - unless there was really something to it? After all, becoming Catholic isn't going to win her any popularity contests. I suspect she has probably spent a considerable amount of time trying to deny this whole Catholic thing herself. And why do you think she wanted to keep it hidden from you? I daresay it's because she was afraid of exactly the reaction that you are displaying - probably because she's maybe been there herself. Why don't you ask her about it?
Communication, Hon! That's what's going to help see you and your wife through this...
Btw, please note that no one on here has even once tried to convince you to become Catholic. Please don't try to make us out to be Protestant-haters. That is not what we are about. And you might consider... you have accused us of anti-Protestantism, but are you not being anti-Catholic, if even only in your reaction to your wife's leanings?
No one is twisting your arm to become Catholic. All we ask is for a fair trial, so to speak. A fair one. That means to please put any prejudices aside and instead, study what the Church herself has to say about herself, instead of listening to biased anti-Catholic teachings about what the Church believes. You think we don't know what you've been taught? I could rattle off a whole huge list for you that I learned from my Protestant ex-boyfriend and other Protestants... stuff like: Catholics worship Mary. Catholics worship idols. Catholics leave Jesus on the Cross. Catholics believe that the pope is infallible in his person. Catholics think that they can sin all they want as long as they go to Confession. Catholics believe that works will get them into heaven instead of believing that by faith we will be saved. Catholics are cannibals. Catholics pray to dead people. Catholics believe in "magic" or superstition, as noted by their vain repetitious prayers and their meaningless rituals... and on and on... None of this, btw, is true.
But you won't know or understand that, unless you start seeking answers yourself. Again, communication is paramount.
I believe I speak for all of us here when I say that we will be praying for you and your wife. God bless you both.
JMJ
- Cheri
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“We do not want a Church that will move with the world; we want a Church that will move the world.”
- G.K. Chesterton
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SBC2RCC
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| Joined: | Mon Oct 9th, 2006 |
| Location: | York, South Carolina USA |
| Posts: | 130 |
| First Name: | Monte | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | was Southern Baptist Minister, now Roman Catholic |
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Posted: Sat Nov 11th, 2006 10:08 pm |
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Certainly, we all hope that Dale will return to discuss the Catholic faith.
Let us pray for this family.
AND, may I ask Dale to re-read the verse that he and all the protestants base "Salvation by faith alone" upon?
Here 'tis:
Ephesians 2:8 "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them." (KJV)
Now, please note that the Bible states plainly that salvation is based upon grace, not faith or works. And the faith by which it comes to us, "it is the gift of God." No person generates or chooses faith by their own ability or merit. Only when God gives us faith are we able to accept the grace that saves us.
The note verse 10, that we are created to do good works. As the Bible also teaches us in the book of James, faith without works is dead. Still, this is all dependent first and foremost on what God gives us, grace, faith, the very breath and life we live, and the eternal life we trust Jesus to grant us because of the atoning work of His blood shed upon the cross.
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In Christ,
Monte W
(Formerly on CHN Forum as "Pilgrim Paul"
Minima Maxima Sunt
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Darlene
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| Joined: | Mon Oct 9th, 2006 |
| Location: | Pocono Mountains, Pennsylvania USA |
| Posts: | 868 |
| First Name: | Darlene | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Christian, trusting His love and forgiveness |
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Posted: Tue Nov 14th, 2006 12:09 am |
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Hello Everyone,
I hope Dale hasn't left us for good. Let's pray that God puts a curiosity in his mind and heart to come back and converse.
I can understand completely the way Dale is thinking. Monte and others who have been Protestant on here, I'm sure you can understand the trauma he is enduring right now. This is a horror story for him. And his emotions are at a high point, I'm sure. He needed to vent and we need to let him vent to some degree.
I say this as a Protestant who is now going through a transformation in my own journey. As I said in another post, today my husband discovered for the first time just how serious I am about understanding the Catholic faith. If you read my post, "My Journey is Out of the Closet" you know that he said some very derogatory things about the Catholic faith. This will not keep me from praying and studying and wanting to learn more about Catholicism. However, I am all the more cognizant that I must behave in a manner that is pleasing to Jesus. This means avoiding arguments and doctrinal debates. Discussing things peacefully and lovingly will be my approach.
As for Dale's wife going to RCIA secretly, I can understand that. I didn't tell my husband when I went to Mass recently. And more than likely won't tell him when I go again. If he asks where I've been, I will have to tell him, but I won't volunteer the information. Not just yet anyway.
I have a long way to go on this journey but more and more I sense the Holy Spirit guiding me and the peace I have is like none I have ever experienced before. Let us uphold Dale and his wife in prayer to our Heavenly Father. I will pray for them tonight and ask that God visits their household in a special way.
Love in Christ,
Darlene
P.S. - You know how I ended up on this forum? I had watched a Journey Home episode and was irritated that a former Protestant such as Marcus, had abandoned his faith. I decided to go on-line and see if I could find some website that would warn me to take heed of listening to Marcus Grodi and his false beliefs. Instead, I found all of you and have begun a wonderful journey. See how God works in mysterious ways. He can do the same for Dale.
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The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all. II Corinthians 13:14
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BodRod
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| Joined: | Mon Oct 2nd, 2006 |
| Location: | Apple Valley, California USA |
| Posts: | 813 |
| First Name: | Cliff | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Raised an SDA, then Generic Christian, finally at home with ... |
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Posted: Tue Nov 14th, 2006 12:19 am |
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Hi Darlene,
<<He can do the same for Dale.>>
But only if Dale will let him! This is one of those situations where a human is more powerful that God and the devil put together. ONLY the human can decide which way he/she will go! 
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Gratias agamus Domino Deo nostro.
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Darlene
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| Joined: | Mon Oct 9th, 2006 |
| Location: | Pocono Mountains, Pennsylvania USA |
| Posts: | 868 |
| First Name: | Darlene | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Christian, trusting His love and forgiveness |
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Posted: Tue Nov 14th, 2006 12:42 am |
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BodRod,
This is where I will disagree with you. Through our prayers and petitioning our Heavenly Father, God can dispense grace to Dale that he wouldn't ordinarily have. Sometimes, God gets hold of us and pierces through our resistance, because of His love for us. While our free will may play into various situations in our lives, God's grace can override that will in order to lead us to Him.
Now I know I haven't presented any scripture for the above comment, partly because I am tired and it is late. I do know that the prayers of a righteous man have great power in their effect.
Anyhow, I will pray for Dale and his wife this evening and I hope others will do the same.
In Christ,
Darlene
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The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all. II Corinthians 13:14
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BodRod
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| Joined: | Mon Oct 2nd, 2006 |
| Location: | Apple Valley, California USA |
| Posts: | 813 |
| First Name: | Cliff | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Raised an SDA, then Generic Christian, finally at home with ... |
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Posted: Tue Nov 14th, 2006 12:58 pm |
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Hi Darlene,
<<God can dispense grace to Dale that he wouldn't ordinarily have.>>
I agree. However, Dale must make a decision to accept that grace. Adam had to make a decision. Moses made a decision. Jesus had to make a decision, John Paul the Great made his decision. I made mine. You made yours and so on AND, Dale has to make his. Even people who believe they are members of the one and only true church and don't want to hear or read anything else have, in effect, made their decision. Some of them will be good decisions and some not so good but it will be a decision.
God created us as creatures who can and must make our own decisions and that is good. That we, we can not blame anyone else for what happens to us.
Last edited on Wed Nov 15th, 2006 12:27 am by BodRod
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Gratias agamus Domino Deo nostro.
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Gnyssa
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| Joined: | Sat Nov 18th, 2006 |
| Location: | California USA |
| Posts: | 29 |
| First Name: | Gnyssa | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Episcopalian, Roman Catholic since 2003, RC priest 2006 |
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Posted: Sun Nov 19th, 2006 01:15 am |
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Hey there Dale
I hope you are still chiecking this forum. I have been where you are, I was a Protestant Pastor, my wife converted to the RC Church. I know the doctrinal issues you have and the personal pains. Brother - I have been there!
Brother in Christ: you love that gir | | |
