 |
| Author | Post |
|---|
abbycat
Member
| Joined: | Thu Jan 17th, 2008 |
| Location: | Maryland USA |
| Posts: | 158 |
| First Name: | abby | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Non-Denomational Charismatic, Lutheran |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Tue May 20th, 2008 03:06 pm |
|
I am quite confused .... I have been doing a lot of reading lately about Catholicism .... early church fathers, tradition, sacraments, beliefs. Also, my counselor is a RC, so I discuss things with him also. I am presently a Lutheran, but spent most of my years in Evangelical/Charismatic churches. As I have come to understand the Sacrament of Holy Communion, it is to be the focal point of any worship service. This makes sense to me. My Lutheran Pastor, who was a former Catholic Priest, gives Holy Communion weekly, but with the "new atmosphere" of freedom and joy (I call it "hip hip hooray church"), the same atmosphere prevails during the Communion Service itself. While some are at the altar partaking, the rest of the Body is chatting, laughing, talking, and praise music is being loudly played. I love my Pastor, and do not want to sound like I am bashing him ... I'm not. But, how can one go from living a life with full understanding of this Sacrament which to me should be treated with reverence, respect, humility, and awe, to this "new, peppy" and what I consider far less reverent way? I don't understand this. It saddens me.
abby
____________________
<*)))><
|
|
|
David W. Emery
Network Helper
| Joined: | Fri Sep 29th, 2006 |
| Location: | Brownsville, Texas USA |
| Posts: | 2276 |
| First Name: | David | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Catholic |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Tue May 20th, 2008 04:04 pm |
|
The answer is simple, Abby. This man was not “living a life with full understanding of this Sacrament” or he would not have left.
He may have been living in a way which simulated such a life; this would have been after the manner of those who rely on appearances rather than substance to maintain their religiosity. Perhaps this is what you see in him now, which would mean that he has not changed, but has rather moved to formalize what he has always believed and to justify how he has always lived.
David
|
|
|
sewnsew
Member
| Joined: | Mon Oct 9th, 2006 |
| Location: | Arizona USA |
| Posts: | 885 |
| First Name: | Kim | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | cradle Anglican, Episcopal /Catholic-04/07/07 |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Tue May 20th, 2008 04:40 pm |
|
Ha for weeks I have been copying my replies and the computer has behaved this morning I forget and the computer eats my long answer. Here goes again: the attitude boils down to a couple of things in my mind- as Lutherans and Anglicans move deeper into protestant folds they lose the sense of the sacramental regardless of what they teach. Also our society as a whole has become uncomfortable with silence- even when our priests say take a moment to pray your intentions, reflect on your sins etc- they only give us about 15 seconds and then go on.... and our society as a whole needs to be texting while watching TV etc. we also have lost our sense of respect and boundaries- we tell kids "don't call me Mrs., Mr. etc- that's my mom , my dad my in-law..." We don't as a rule teach our sons to open doors, take their hats off offer up their seats- and we don't teach our girls to expect or be comfortable with these small courtesies. We don't teach our kids to behave in church, in restaurants. When the kids have other friends for dinner some have been unaccustomed to cloth napkins ( which folks, are cheap at the dollar store, I am not talking about formal white starched here), a couple aren't used to a set table and they don't eat in much. Dinner conversation is also something that a couple are not too well versed in and we won't go into manners... . We are still reaping the fallout from the hippie generation who led the charge away from "unnecessary" stuff like that but I think it is necessary. Okay I have my flame retardant suit on so fire awy all! By the way this is the 3rd time I have tried to post this letter.
|
|
|
abbycat
Member
| Joined: | Thu Jan 17th, 2008 |
| Location: | Maryland USA |
| Posts: | 158 |
| First Name: | abby | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Non-Denomational Charismatic, Lutheran |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Tue May 20th, 2008 04:46 pm |
|
Hi Kim .... I never really thought of it that way, but you probably have really hit on at least a part of this. You're right about our general culture, for sure. I see it all the time, and unfortunately, witness it in my own granddaughter.
My pastor was raised in a very religious Catholic home, became a priest and left the priesthood when he felt God calling him to marry, which he did. I don't know anything about his previous spiritual life, so I can't speak to that. It just saddens me ... when I first started them several years ago, one of the things that kept me there was the sense of Christ's Presence in and through this man and in the Holy Communion and worship service in general. Now it seems to be disappearing.
abby
____________________
<*)))><
|
|
|
Annie
Banned
| Joined: | Wed Feb 14th, 2007 |
| Location: | Columbus, Ohio USA |
| Posts: | 731 |
| First Name: | Annie | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | nothing, Quaker, Mennonite, Presbyterian, Methodist, Anglican, Catholic |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Tue May 20th, 2008 04:51 pm |
|
| Unfortunately I see this kind of behavior at some Catholic parishes. Kim I think is right about the source of it all. Our pastor has even written in the bulletin that he is mystified as to why parents feel it's necessary to bring Cheerios to Mass. I told him it's because of the pervasive attitude that children need to be entertained all the time. Once people develop the desire to be constantly entertained, away go the silence and introspection so vital for the religious life.
____________________
Annie
Ora et labora
|
|
|
CajunRick
Network Helper
| Joined: | Fri Sep 29th, 2006 |
| Location: | Houma, Louisiana USA |
| Posts: | 5457 |
| First Name: | Rick (& Kermie) | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Lifetime Catholic, Latin Rite |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Tue May 20th, 2008 05:32 pm |
|
abbycat wrote: It saddens me.
Abby, it should sadden us all.
Either the Eucharist is our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, or it's a snack.
If it is a snack, then it should be served with conversation, music, etc.
If it is our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, then it should be distributed and consumed with reverence. I think your pastor's attitude is quite evident that he is aware he can no longer consecrate the Eucharist, so it is in fact a snack being handed out to all who wish to partake.
A snack should be shared by everyone. That's why Lutherans, Anglicans, and others have open communion.
The Body and Blood of Christ should be available only to those who can properly discern it, as St. Paul instructs us. That's why Churches with true sacraments (Catholic, Orthodox, and Oriental Churches) have closed communion.
As to those Catholic churches with a "party atmosphere" during communion, we can only pray that the next generation of priests will be better taught. The correction of such problems is underway, but it will take many years to actually reach the parish churches.
____________________
Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
Luquette Lane
|
|
|
David W. Emery
Network Helper
| Joined: | Fri Sep 29th, 2006 |
| Location: | Brownsville, Texas USA |
| Posts: | 2276 |
| First Name: | David | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Catholic |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Tue May 20th, 2008 06:31 pm |
|
Something to note, Abby: Kim, Annie and Rick have stated exactly what I did above, just using different words. So I think we are all agreed on the problem: a fundamental lack of faith. Yes, there may be simulated faith, the outward trappings of faith, but it is a hollow shell, and sooner or later the sham catches up with the person and he defects. Conscience may keep him “religious,” but it will be religion on his own terms, not on God’s.
David
|
|
|
Dave Armstrong
Network Apologist
| Joined: | Fri Nov 2nd, 2007 |
| Location: | Melvindale, Michigan USA |
| Posts: | 1869 |
| First Name: | Dave | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Evangelical (1977): Diverse Protestant Influences / Catholic in 1990 |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Tue May 20th, 2008 09:31 pm |
|
It sure is a lack of faith and understanding. For heaven's sake, we wouldn't even act this way in front of the President of the United States (even if of a different party than our own!), or the Queen of England. There is a certain dignity and awe of the office that everyone instinctively understands.
Yet with God Himself, present in the Holy Eucharist (or reverently believed to be: I won't get into ordination issues and consubstantiation), folks often don't even offer a level of respect that they themselves would accord important human dignitaries.
Thus, we can only conclude that people who act in this fashion are utterly ignorant as to their own ostensible theology, or don't believe that Jesus is truly present. Lutherans are supposed to believe that Jesus is really, truly, substantially present (i.e., alongside the bread and the wine).
Martin Luther himself bowed at the consecration. So they aren't even continuing their own best Lutheran traditions in this case. Lutherans have, however, had mixed opinions, since Luther's successor Philip Melanchthon ceased believing in the Real Presence. On the other hand, those who presided over the later confessions, such as Martin Chemnitz, did retain belief in Real Presence, more like Martin Luther, and Melanchthon hadn't, I believe, yet departed wholly from Real Presence when he wrote the Augsburg Confession in 1530.
____________________
I'm happy to offer whatever theological & personal assistance I can. My blog, Biblical Evidence for Catholicism, contains 2000+ papers & web pages (absolutely free) & 16 apologetic books (for sale):
http://www.biblicalcatholic.com/
|
|
|
abbycat
Member
| Joined: | Thu Jan 17th, 2008 |
| Location: | Maryland USA |
| Posts: | 158 |
| First Name: | abby | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Non-Denomational Charismatic, Lutheran |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Wed May 21st, 2008 02:40 am |
|
Yes, the change in our culture, with the disrespect we see in worship only reflecting the disrespect and behavior we see everywhere, certainly is a big piece of this. It makes me wonder just where all of this will lead .... to a "drive-through Holy Communion?" Lord, help us all.
abby
____________________
<*)))><
|
|
|
CajunRick
Network Helper
| Joined: | Fri Sep 29th, 2006 |
| Location: | Houma, Louisiana USA |
| Posts: | 5457 |
| First Name: | Rick (& Kermie) | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Lifetime Catholic, Latin Rite |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Wed May 21st, 2008 02:45 am |
|
abbycat wrote: Yes, the change in our culture, with the disrespect we see in worship only reflecting the disrespect and behavior we see everywhere, certainly is a big piece of this. It makes me wonder just where all of this will lead .... to a "drive-through Holy Communion?" Lord, help us all.
Our German Shepherd has the matter well in hand. The return to orthodox teaching in our seminaries will take a generation or more to permeate the Church, but that is a very brief time in the history of the Church.
____________________
Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
Luquette Lane
|
|
|
abbycat
Member
| Joined: | Thu Jan 17th, 2008 |
| Location: | Maryland USA |
| Posts: | 158 |
| First Name: | abby | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Non-Denomational Charismatic, Lutheran |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Tue May 27th, 2008 12:16 pm |
|
I have spoken to an individual who, up til recently, was very close to my pastor and this person shared with me that they do not understand how my pastor has seemingly so thoroughly left so much of his former Catholic life behind in favor of the total evangelistic approach. This individual is a new Catholic and apparently was mentored by my pastor for several years. And now this. There has also been a shift from the gentler, more "real" way of ministering to the "everything is GREAT" approach, which to me is a huge pitfall within many evangelical churches. It is confounding to me and very, very, sad. Thanks for listening to me once again.
abby
____________________
<*)))><
|
|
|
Free
Member
| Joined: | Wed Nov 28th, 2007 |
| Location: | Michigan USA |
| Posts: | 269 |
| First Name: | Jane | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Presbyterian, Gnostic, non-denominational, Catholic |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Tue May 27th, 2008 02:24 pm |
|
Abby, here's a thought: in most "peppy" churches, the word "religion" is ranked with four-letter words. To treat the communion elements with reverence, respect, humility and awe may be seen as being religious, and therefore, something to be avoided.
Another word preached against in peppy churches is "tradition." They make no distinction between the traditions of men and the Tradition passed down to us from the Apostles. Perhaps to avoid being seen as traditional, your pastor has chosen to advocate a loose regard for Holy Communion.
Another possibility might come from a misunderstanding of the word celebrate. Perhaps your pastor defines "celebrate" in the modern sense of "party down!" and so misunderstands how he is to celebrate the Eucharist. [The first definition in Webster's dictionary is "to perform (a sacrament or solemn ceremony) with appropriate rites."]
No matter what the reason, thank goodness the real body and blood of Christ is not involved, no matter what the pastor or parishoners might believe. Once Luther turned away from the Tradition as handed down from the Apostles (and kept a lover and all those other rebellious things), the line of apostolic succession in the Lutheran church was broken, and so the bread and wine is never consecrated or confected into the Precious Body and Blood of our Lord and Savior.
At least that's how I understand it.
abbycat wrote: But, how can one go from living a life with full understanding of this Sacrament which to me should be treated with reverence, respect, humility, and awe, to this "new, peppy" and what I consider far less reverent way? I don't understand this. It saddens me.
|
|
|
abbycat
Member
| Joined: | Thu Jan 17th, 2008 |
| Location: | Maryland USA |
| Posts: | 158 |
| First Name: | abby | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Non-Denomational Charismatic, Lutheran |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Tue May 27th, 2008 10:03 pm |
|
Thank you Free ..... you are so right about those words "religion, tradition." They are viewed very poorly in most evangelical/charismatic sectors. I had never thought about that. Most things (I dare say all) that have any reference to "religion and tradition" are view with such jadedness, that I do not believe most of the folks in the general congregations give them any thought whatsoever. And ... if any of them were to read any of the writings of the early church fathers, and truly read them with an open mind ... they would most likely be a bit shocked. But, probably like I was ... even thinking I had an open mind .... well, it would just be downright dangerous. I'm thankful I stepped out of my 25 year evangelical/charismatic world and am in a Lutheran body at present ... at least here there are souls who are likeminded. Maybe someday I'll make it all the way to "the" Church. Thanks again ....
abby
____________________
<*)))><
|
|
|
DrDave
Member
| Joined: | Mon Nov 6th, 2006 |
| Location: | Mildura, Australia |
| Posts: | 247 |
| First Name: | Dave | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Cradle - Lapsed - Renewed Catholic |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Wed May 28th, 2008 02:36 am |
|
Free wrote: No matter what the reason, thank goodness the real body and blood of Christ is not involved, no matter what the pastor or parishoners might believe. Once Luther turned away from the Tradition as handed down from the Apostles (and kept a lover and all those other rebellious things), the line of apostolic succession in the Lutheran church was broken, and so the bread and wine is never consecrated or confected into the Precious Body and Blood of our Lord and Savior.
At least that's how I understand it.
Would that it were as simple as that. The Catholic Church teaches that "once a priest always a priest", like baptism ordination leaves an indelible 'mark' on one's soul. The Church can remove a priest's 'faculties' i.e. remove permission to perform the sacraments, but cannot remove his 'ability' to perform the sacraments.
Thus any validly ordained priest ...
abbycat wrote:
My Lutheran Pastor, who was a former Catholic Priest
who performs the the sacrament with valid form ("this is my body, this is my blood"), matter (wheat bread, grape wine) and intention (to confect the Eucharist) performs a valid sacrament, even if he does so illicitly(against the laws of the church) even if he does so at the cost of his own soul.
Please join me in praying for this individual, and other priests in similar situations.
Regards Doc
|
|
|
abbycat
Member
| Joined: | Thu Jan 17th, 2008 |
| Location: | Maryland USA |
| Posts: | 158 |
| First Name: | abby | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Non-Denomational Charismatic, Lutheran |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Wed May 28th, 2008 12:34 pm |
|
I didn't realize that "once a Priest always a Priest." That does add a whole different dimension to this situation. I can better understand how a close friend of mine said to me that "they did not understand how he could have ever left the Catholic Church in the first place." I guess I don't really either, particularly with this new information.
abby
____________________
<*)))><
|
|
|
David W. Emery
Network Helper
| Joined: | Fri Sep 29th, 2006 |
| Location: | Brownsville, Texas USA |
| Posts: | 2276 |
| First Name: | David | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Catholic |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Wed May 28th, 2008 05:56 pm |
|
abbycat wrote:
I didn't realize that "once a Priest always a Priest." That does add a whole different dimension to this situation. I can better understand how a close friend of mine said to me that "they did not understand how he could have ever left the Catholic Church in the first place." I guess I don't really either, particularly with this new information.
abby
This is why you see me saying what I did ’way back at the beginning of this thread: “This man was not ‘living a life with full understanding of this Sacrament’ or he would not have left.” I then spoke of a simulation of faith, wherein one eventually realizes that he really does not believe what he preaches, so he moves on to a different venue where he is more comfortable.
David
|
|
|
Christine Ann
Member
| Joined: | Mon Oct 9th, 2006 |
| Location: | An Hours' Drive From Cincinnati, Ohio USA |
| Posts: | 155 |
| First Name: | Christine Ann | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | former Lutheran, Baptist, now Catholic. |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Fri May 30th, 2008 12:49 am |
|
Hello Abby,
I'm a former Lutheran who is soooo glad to have been led to the fullness of truth that is the Catholic Church. I was raised Lutheran in the 50's and 60's, then moved away from any Church affiliation for many years. When I found myself longing for the Holy Communion that I remembered as a child, I tried to return thinking "things" would be the same. The first Sunday I visited my old church, the communion was served by the youth clown ministry...they were dressed as clowns and serving "Holy" communion......joyfully !? Gone was any semblance of what I remembered of the sacredness of communion. What a horrible, sad, joke. I was sick. I know the Lord took me to that particular service on that day to show me there would be no returning to the Lutheran Church.
I hope you can see your way to the holy, sacred, true Communion that is in the Catholic Church only. Your sadness of heart is the Holy Spirit speaking to you...give this over to prayer and you will be led to the Catholic Church. If you read The Catchecism of the Catholic Church, you will see what the Church believes and then there is no turning back.
May God bless you in your journey.
In His Love,
Christine Ann
|
|
|
Steven Barrett
Member
| Joined: | Tue Nov 14th, 2006 |
| Location: | Hadley, Massachusetts USA |
| Posts: | 1185 |
| First Name: | Steven | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Catholic, Episcopal communicant, Baptist, Catholic |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Sun Jun 1st, 2008 07:46 pm |
|
 Not as bad as I experienced some 20 years ago and saw the Pastor of my old parish in the clown suit and presiding at the Mass.
Well, at least it wasn't that clown in Chicago, who probably would've donned both Clown suit and Dark-Face to "make his point."
____________________
"This Old House's" motto is "Measure twice, cut once." My new motto is THINK at least twice or thrice, then you only have to write once, and maybe apologize nonce.
|
|
|
Current time is 01:00 pm | |
|
|
|
|
|
