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BD
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| First Name: | Brett | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Non-denominational evangelical, Mennonite (Anabaptist), now Evangelical-Anabapti-catholic |
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Posted: Thu May 1st, 2008 03:15 pm |
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I am sure this is a silly question and I am missing something obvious. But...
while at Mass I've witnessed the Priest pouring water and wine into the chalice....why the water?
All I can think of is that water and wine poured from Jesus' side while on the cross....or that first century wine was usually watered down (something I tell my college students when they say "Jesus drank wine").
What's going on here?
Last edited on Thu May 1st, 2008 03:22 pm by BD
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Non abbiate paura!
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Intercessor
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Posted: Thu May 1st, 2008 05:18 pm |
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Hi, Brett,
The priest adds a few drops of water to the wine so that what is then in the cup represents the union of the two natures of Christ, humanity and divinity.
Click here for westervillelibrary.org website on mixing wine and water.
from the section: Symbolism of the Mixed Cup
. . . the necessity of wine and water in the cup. . . .To Cyprian this mixture symbolized the union of Christ's godhead (wine) with his humanity (water). Clement saw in it the union of the Spirit with man. In Catholic tradition the mixture symbolizes, also, the flowing of water and blood out of Jesus' side and the union of Christ with the faithful. . . . In the Greek Church, as sometimes at the Passover, for some centuries hot water was mixed with the wine to increase the resemblance to blood. . . . The legitimacy of the mixed chalice was firmly established by the Council of Trent. . .
Brett, I'll be watching myself to see whether Henry, David, Dave, Rick, or others can shed some light on how reliable this information is.
Grace and peace,
BeckyLast edited on Thu May 1st, 2008 06:23 pm by Intercessor
____________________
"The perfection of a soul may be measured by the degree to which it does the will of God, and finds its happiness in doing it.... O my God,...the only thing necessary is Your holy will," Divine Intimacy, pp. 15-16 Father Gabriel, O.C.D.
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Didi
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Posted: Thu May 1st, 2008 10:49 pm |
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As the priest places the drop of water into the wine he prays a short prayer in silence:
"Through the mystery of this water and wine, may we come to share in the divinity of Christ, Who humbled Himself to share in our humanity."
I've heard priests comment on this as well, that the little dribble of water (which can represent our humanity), becomes sacred as the consecration occurs; just as we, little and insignificant as we sometimes may seem, can also become holy by our union with Christ.
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David W. Emery
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Posted: Fri May 2nd, 2008 01:37 am |
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There is hefty symbolism all throughout the Eucharistic sacrifice. In addition to what has already been presented, I offer the following thoughts.
This blood — and water — in the Mass are prefigured in the Old Testament. Hebrews 9:19–20: “For when every commandment of the law had been declared by Moses to all the people, he took the blood of calves and goats, with water and scarlet wool and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book itself and all the people, saying, “This is the blood of the covenant which God commanded you.”
When Christ’s side was pierced with a lance, what issued forth? Blood and water (John 19:34). Yes, this too signifies his divinity and humanity. How do we know? Because the very next verse reads: “He who saw it has borne witness — his testimony is true, and he knows that he tells the truth — that you also may believe.” Believe what? That Jesus is the Messiah, the Son of God.
Again, we read in 1 John 5:6–8: “This is he who came by water and blood, Jesus Christ, not with the water only but with the water and the blood. And the Spirit is the witness, because the Spirit is the truth. There are three witnesses, the Spirit, the water, and the blood; and these three agree.” Agree on what? Christ’s divinity and the efficacy of his redemption of the human race.
Some other interesting connections:
Matthew 27:24–25:
So when Pilate saw that he was gaining nothing, but rather that a riot was beginning, he took water and washed his hands before the crowd, saying, “I am innocent of this righteous man’s blood; see to it yourselves.” And all the people answered, “His blood be on us and on our children!”
Hebrews 10:19–22:
Therefore, brethren, since we have confidence to enter the sanctuary by the blood of Jesus, by the new and living way which he opened for us through the curtain, that is, through his flesh, and since we have a great priest over the house of God, let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, with our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water.
Revelation 7:13–14:
Then one of the elders addressed me, saying, “Who are these, clothed in white robes, and whence have they come?” I said to him, “Sir, you know.” And he said to me, “These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
The text from Matthew seems to show the inefficacy of Pilate’s gesture, just as the reply of the Jews represents an utter blindness to the efficacy of the blood and water issuing a few hours later from Jesus’ side.
The text from Hebrews reminds me of the image of the Divine Mercy made popular by St. Faustina: The figure recalls in an unbloody fashion the piercing with the lance. The red ray represents the blood, the white (“pale” in the text) the water; and according to the same narrative, the whole figure represents also the sacraments of baptism (water) and Eucharist (body and blood). This would seem to explain the text of Revelation 7:13–14 (above).
In the Mass, the symbolism of the bread and the wine is often missed as well. The separate consecration indicates Christ’s death — the spilled blood (life, cf. Leviticus 17:14; Genesis 9:4–5) and the lifeless body. The subsequent dropping of a particle of the host into the chalice represents the resurrection — the reuniting of the body and the blood. This is why the Mass is said to re-present Christ’s passion, death and resurrection. (The public ministry, too, is re-presented in the penitential rite (John the Baptist and the baptism of Jesus; more convincing if the sprinkling with water is included) and the scriptural readings that follow (Jesus’ public ministry). At communion, Jesus is entering into heaven (our bodies and our souls!), just as we, the communicants, unite ourselves with his glorification in the same act (cf. Hebrews 12:18–24 for the understanding of the Mass as heaven).
David
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Intercessor
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Posted: Fri May 2nd, 2008 02:25 am |
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David, thanks so much.
I think I must be missing something pretty obvious. I'm trying to figure out why the Baptist tradition (and the NIV Bible study notes) had nothing to say (that I recall) about the water's representing Christ's humanity. The Protestant faith certainly teaches the humanity and divinity of Jesus Christ. I John 5:6-8 --Why would we have been taught only that the water referred to Christ's baptism? Or not even that? Was it just one of those missing pieces? Or is there some other explanation?
Thanks,
BeckyLast edited on Fri May 2nd, 2008 02:27 am by Intercessor
____________________
"The perfection of a soul may be measured by the degree to which it does the will of God, and finds its happiness in doing it.... O my God,...the only thing necessary is Your holy will," Divine Intimacy, pp. 15-16 Father Gabriel, O.C.D.
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David W. Emery
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Posted: Fri May 2nd, 2008 04:05 am |
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I'm trying to figure out why the Baptist tradition (and the NIV Bible study notes) had nothing to say [about these things].
No history, no ancient tradition yields nothing on the radar. Christianity is supposed to be complete using only the bible. It’s as simple as that.
David
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Intercessor
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Posted: Fri May 2nd, 2008 06:19 am |
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David W. Emery wrote:
I'm trying to figure out why the Baptist tradition (and the NIV Bible study notes) had nothing to say [about these things].
No history, no ancient tradition yields nothing on the radar. Christianity is supposed to be complete using only the bible. It’s as simple as that.
David
I continue to be grateful for all I learned in the Baptist faith; but as time passes, it becomes increasingly difficult to understand how I was in that limited frame of reference for so long. I'm getting off-topic; so I'll hush.
Becky
____________________
"The perfection of a soul may be measured by the degree to which it does the will of God, and finds its happiness in doing it.... O my God,...the only thing necessary is Your holy will," Divine Intimacy, pp. 15-16 Father Gabriel, O.C.D.
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BD
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Posted: Fri May 2nd, 2008 03:47 pm |
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Thanks all. This was really helpful.
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David W. Emery
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Posted: Fri May 2nd, 2008 05:55 pm |
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Glad you found it of value, Brett. You can see that your question was not “silly” after all. The whole topic is something that Protestants, by and large, have no contact with, no inkling of, until they come into close contact with Catholic or Orthodox liturgy and tradition. Then it is either a revelation or a turn-off.
David
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Dave Armstrong
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Posted: Fri May 2nd, 2008 08:42 pm |
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No, it wasn't "silly"! I thought it was an excellent question, providing opportunity for one of David's typically excellent and informative replies.
David and Rick (as many have probably noticed) know a lot more about liturgical and "procedural" questions than I do. I'm comparatively fairly weak in those areas, since I'm always having to answer the questions (in my wider apostolate) of Protestants, which are usually theological and Bible-based, rather than liturgical.
Last edited on Fri May 2nd, 2008 08:42 pm by Dave Armstrong
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http://www.biblicalcatholic.com/
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CajunRick
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Posted: Sat May 3rd, 2008 03:23 pm |
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There is one other point that I don't think was mentioned.
The water truly represents the humanity of Christ mixed with his Divinity (represented by the wine), but even more importantly, it represents the inseparability of the dual natures of our Savior.
Just like the water can never be removed from the wine, the humanity of Christ can never be removed from his Divine Nature. He is for all eternity both human and Divine, blended as are the wine and water.
The mixture of water and wine originally entered the liturgy in response to specific heresies that questioned the nature of Christ.
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Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
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