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JillD Member

| Joined: | Fri Sep 29th, 2006 |
| Location: | Visalia, California USA |
| Posts: | 754 |
| First Name: | Jill | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | heathen, EvFree, Messianic, LC-MS, Catholic 2007 |
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Posted: Sun Apr 27th, 2008 08:23 pm |
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I know we're not to argue here, but I'm not arguing with YOU all. I'm hoping you'll help me "discuss" things with my friends. I know some stuff, but I sure don't know it all and I've found that you all know a LOT. Think of it as me asking FOR my friends, since I don't think they'd come here to ask themselves in a million years. Maybe less.
Here's my friend's comment:
Communion is the body and blood ONLY of Jesus. His body was broken, and His blood shed for the remission of sins ONLY. Nowhere does Scripture tell us of the soul and divinity of Christ in communion. That is actually a New Age false teaching for it can only make us into "little christ's" which a few false teachers teach and lead astray with today. Jesus Himself warned us of this in Matthew 24:24.
I've never heard this one. What's he saying??
Jill
____________________ "I praise you, for I am wondrously made. Wonderful are our works! My frame was not hidden from you, when I was being made in secret." Ps 139
"Guard me, O Lord, from the hands of the wicked; preserve me from violent men." Ps 140
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David W. Emery Network Helper
| Joined: | Fri Sep 29th, 2006 |
| Location: | Brownsville, Texas USA |
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| First Name: | David | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Catholic |
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Posted: Mon Apr 28th, 2008 12:13 am |
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It occurs to me, Jill, that your friend is not understanding that the Catholic position is quite different from the gnostic (New Age throughout the ages) assertion that the Eucharist cannot be the body and blood of Christ because physical matter is evil; therefore they recognize only the soul and divinity of Christ in the Eucharist. The Catholic position, as usual, is not either/or but both/and. This is something your friend evidently has yet to discover.
St. Irenaeus (2nd century) goes to great lengths in arguing against the gnostics of his day that the Eucharist is in fact physical and material (body and blood) as well as spiritual (soul and divinity). See his Against Heresies, Book 5, the first several chapters, especially Chapter 2. (Available online here.) A good-sized excerpt from Chapter 2 (incidentally one of my favorite patristic passages) appears in the Liturgy of the Hours, Office of Readings for Thursday in the Third Week of Easter, so the saint’s affirmation is not exactly a dead letter in the Church of today, either.
David
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BeProf Member
| Joined: | Thu Jan 3rd, 2008 |
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| First Name: | Ed | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Independent Fundamental Baptist - Atheism - Christian & Missionary Alliance |
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Posted: Mon Apr 28th, 2008 12:35 pm |
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Think about it this way...
If the elements become physically and substantially the body and blood of Christ then...
If the soul is not present, then the Priest has just killed our Lord afresh because, I don't know how it works elsewhere, but where I come from - a body without a soul is a corpse.
If the soul is present but not the divinity, then the Priest has just done the truly impossible - he has separated the human and divine natures.
If any of Christ is really and truly present in the elements then all of Christ has to be really and truly present in the elements.
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JillD Member

| Joined: | Fri Sep 29th, 2006 |
| Location: | Visalia, California USA |
| Posts: | 754 |
| First Name: | Jill | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | heathen, EvFree, Messianic, LC-MS, Catholic 2007 |
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Posted: Mon Apr 28th, 2008 02:08 pm |
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Thank you, guys. That's pretty much what I offered to him, as well as the question, "Where did you GET that??"
A Catholic friend lent me the book "Will Catholics Be Left Behind?" which I just started reading last night. What an eye-opener. I guess I'd forgotten how "out there" I used to be because at this point, I wonder if my friend I'm "arguing" with and I will ever hear each other. As I read that book, I remembered my former POV about the Church, how mysterious, spooky, and cultish it seemed.
Well, even if he doesn't hear me, it's been fun to practice my apologetics a little bit... Especially since he served me up all the usual meatballs about Mary, the Bible, Peter, etc. Just this one New Age comment was new to me.
Jill
____________________ "I praise you, for I am wondrously made. Wonderful are our works! My frame was not hidden from you, when I was being made in secret." Ps 139
"Guard me, O Lord, from the hands of the wicked; preserve me from violent men." Ps 140
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japhy Member

| Joined: | Thu Apr 26th, 2007 |
| Location: | Princeton, New Jersey USA |
| Posts: | 185 |
| First Name: | Jeff (you can call me "japhy" | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Catholic (Latin Rite) |
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Posted: Mon Apr 28th, 2008 04:52 pm |
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BeProf pretty much nails it. Jesus cannot be divided.
____________________ [Mary said,] "Do whatever he tells you." - John 2:5
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Dave Armstrong Network Apologist

| Joined: | Fri Nov 2nd, 2007 |
| Location: | Melvindale, Michigan USA |
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| First Name: | Dave | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Evangelical (1977): Diverse Protestant Influences / Catholic in 1990 |
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Posted: Mon Apr 28th, 2008 05:42 pm |
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Great answers.
If Jesus' soul is not present, then He would not be a man, since a man has a soul as well as a body, and if He is not a man, then this denies the incarnation itself.
If His divinity is not present, then this denies the efficacy of the redemption and the atonement, since it isn't God doing it but a mere man.
Any way you look at it, then, all four have to be present.
____________________ I'm happy to offer whatever theological & personal assistance I can. My blog, Biblical Evidence for Catholicism, contains 2000+ papers & web pages (absolutely free) & 16 apologetic books (for sale):
http://www.biblicalcatholic.com/
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youngone88 Member
| Joined: | Wed Apr 30th, 2008 |
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| First Name: | Stephen | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Lutheran-Evangelical-soon to be Catholic? (still seeking) |
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Posted: Wed May 28th, 2008 12:41 am |
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just out of curiosity though... aren't our souls technically separate from our bodies when we die (but before the final judgment when the dead rise)? I could be incorrect here... but doesn't that mean it is somehow possible to be separate from our physical bodies and yet still be a human being?
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JillD Member

| Joined: | Fri Sep 29th, 2006 |
| Location: | Visalia, California USA |
| Posts: | 754 |
| First Name: | Jill | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | heathen, EvFree, Messianic, LC-MS, Catholic 2007 |
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Posted: Wed May 28th, 2008 12:46 am |
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An inexpert reply....
When we die, our souls will be reunited with our glorified bodies. Since it's Christ's glorified body that we partake of in the Mass (I read that on this forum!), His Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity will all be present.
____________________ "I praise you, for I am wondrously made. Wonderful are our works! My frame was not hidden from you, when I was being made in secret." Ps 139
"Guard me, O Lord, from the hands of the wicked; preserve me from violent men." Ps 140
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left coast mystic Member

| Joined: | Sat May 10th, 2008 |
| Location: | La Honda, California USA |
| Posts: | 129 |
| First Name: | Marcee | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | nondenominational charismatic, Presbyterian, long-time lover of the RCC |
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Posted: Wed May 28th, 2008 12:52 am |
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BeProf wrote: Think about it this way...
If the elements become physically and substantially the body and blood of Christ then...
If the soul is not present, then the Priest has just killed our Lord afresh because, I don't know how it works elsewhere, but where I come from - a body without a soul is a corpse.
If the soul is present but not the divinity, then the Priest has just done the truly impossible - he has separated the human and divine natures.
If any of Christ is really and truly present in the elements then all of Christ has to be really and truly present in the elements.
Okay, I'm intrigued. BeProf, your faith history ends with CMA, but you're sounding solidly Catholic to me!
-Marcee
____________________ Godliness with contentment is great gain. (1 Tim. 6:6)
In returning and rest you shall be saved; in quietness and confidence shall be your strength. (Isa. 30:15)
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BeProf Member
| Joined: | Thu Jan 3rd, 2008 |
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| First Name: | Ed | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Independent Fundamental Baptist - Atheism - Christian & Missionary Alliance |
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Posted: Wed May 28th, 2008 02:45 pm |
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left coast mystic wrote:
BeProf wrote: Think about it this way...
If the elements become physically and substantially the body and blood of Christ then...
If the soul is not present, then the Priest has just killed our Lord afresh because, I don't know how it works elsewhere, but where I come from - a body without a soul is a corpse.
If the soul is present but not the divinity, then the Priest has just done the truly impossible - he has separated the human and divine natures.
If any of Christ is really and truly present in the elements then all of Christ has to be really and truly present in the elements.
Okay, I'm intrigued. BeProf, your faith history ends with CMA, but you're sounding solidly Catholic to me!
-Marcee
That's why I said "If..."
I don't believe in Real Presence. I was merely pointing out that one cannot, logically, affirm belief in the Real Presence without also affirming belief that the soul and divinity of Christ are also present. Christ is either all there or He's not at all there, if you catch my drift.
While I am a memorialist, that's not to say that I either take exception with my brothers and sisters in Christ who do believe in Real Presence. I would classify it as a secondary (but by no means unimportant) issue.
Nor is the fact that I'm a memorialist to say that I take a low view of Communion. Communion and Baptism are symbolic but they are not merely so. There is, I believe, a spiritual reality going on behind the scenes that is inexorably tied to the physical act such that one cannot knowingly and willingly reject the physical act without also rejecting the spiritual reality that it signifies. Baptism and Communion do not save in and of themselves, but one cannot knowingly and willingly reject them and expect to be saved.
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Dave Armstrong Network Apologist

| Joined: | Fri Nov 2nd, 2007 |
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Posted: Wed May 28th, 2008 07:53 pm |
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just out of curiosity though... aren't our souls technically separate from our bodies when we die (but before the final judgment when the dead rise)? I could be incorrect here... but doesn't that mean it is somehow possible to be separate from our physical bodies and yet still be a human being?
Good question. Yes, we are still human beings or persons in an "incomplete state" that will be made complete when we receive our glorified resurrection bodies.
But this would be nonsensical with regard to the Eucharist because Jesus specifically says (at the Last Supper and discourse of John 6) He is giving His Body and Blood to us in a sacramental fashion. You can have a soul without a body, who still retains an identity as the same person as the one that had a body on earth. Indeed, Jesus Himself was eternally a spirit (the Logos) before He took on flesh.
But it is completely nonsensical to have body and blood without soul and divinity, in the case of God and the Eucharist, because body and blood without a soul is a meaningless; essentially identical to a corpse, which is no longer the person, but rather, only the matter of the body that the person once occupied. It has no life in it, but Jesus said the eucharist would be life-giving, even unto eternal life. The lifeless cannot give grace and eternal life.
____________________ I'm happy to offer whatever theological & personal assistance I can. My blog, Biblical Evidence for Catholicism, contains 2000+ papers & web pages (absolutely free) & 16 apologetic books (for sale):
http://www.biblicalcatholic.com/
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Dave Armstrong Network Apologist

| Joined: | Fri Nov 2nd, 2007 |
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Posted: Wed May 28th, 2008 08:22 pm |
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Baptism and Communion do not save in and of themselves, but one cannot knowingly and willingly reject them and expect to be saved.
I thank Ed for his eloquent and respectful statement of his own beliefs in these matters.
Just to clarify the Catholic position: we (like many Protestants) believe in baptismal regeneration, and we also believe that the Eucharist has a direct relation to salvation in some respect, based on passages such as the following:
Acts 2:38 And Peter said to them, "Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins;
1 Peter 3:18-21 For Christ also died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit; in which he went and preached to the spirits in prison, who formerly did not obey, when God's patience waited in the days of Noah, during the building of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were saved through water. Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a clear conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,
Mark 16:16 (disputed manuscript, but still indicates the early Christian belief) He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.
Acts 22:16 And now why do you wait? Rise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on his name.'
Romans 6:3-4 Or don't you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life. (cf. Romans 8:11, 1 Cor 15:20-23, Col 2:11-13)
1 Corinthians 6:11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.
Paul seems to imply an organic connection between baptism (washed), sanctification and justification.
Titus 3:5 he saved us, not because of deeds done by us in righteousness, but in virtue of his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal in the Holy Spirit,
Compare this to John 3:5:
Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, unless a man is born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. (cf. 3:3: "unless a man is born again ...")
The two passages are almost exactly parallel:
Titus: "saved" / John: "enter the kingdom of God"
Titus: "washing of rebirth" / John: "born of water"
Titus: "renewal by the Holy Spirit" / John: "born . . . of the Spirit"
* * * * *
The connection between the Eucharist and eternal life is equally clear, I think:
John 6:48-51 I am the bread of life. Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and they died. This is the bread which comes down from heaven, that a man may eat of it and not die. I am the living bread which came down from heaven; if any one eats of this bread, he will live for ever; and the bread which I shall give for the life of the world is my flesh."
John 6:53-58 So Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you have no life in you; he who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. For my flesh is food indeed, and my blood is drink indeed. He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him. As the living Father sent me, and I live because of the Father, so he who eats me will live because of me. This is the bread which came down from heaven, not such as the fathers ate and died; he who eats this bread will live for ever."
Some questions have arisen from Protestants as to the relationship of these eucharistic passages to other criteria for salvation. I dealt with them in a paper on questions about the Eucharist (see section IV).
____________________ I'm happy to offer whatever theological & personal assistance I can. My blog, Biblical Evidence for Catholicism, contains 2000+ papers & web pages (absolutely free) & 16 apologetic books (for sale):
http://www.biblicalcatholic.com/
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Steven Barrett Member

| Joined: | Tue Nov 14th, 2006 |
| Location: | Hadley, Massachusetts USA |
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| First Name: | Steven | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Catholic, Episcopal communicant, Baptist, Catholic |
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Posted: Wed May 28th, 2008 10:13 pm |
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This has always been a mystery to me about Protestants: If you can take in what appears in the Bible as infallible (which many Protestants do so quite sincerely) in historical fact as well as in spirit -- which should be more important because of the lessons God teaches us through many of the facts -- why is it so difficult to take that one step forward on faith in Jesus very own words about himself, the bread he spoke about, and of course the entire Holy Thursday portion of John's Gospel?
And be done with it!
All of these intellectual hurdles, hoops, minefields, hypothetical musings, arguments, mental shouting matches, and intellectual football games within one's mind, heart and soul simply cannot be sustained by any person for a long time without leaving an individual simply worn out. whew! Now, I'll admit what you just read was a long sentence. But I made it very long for a purpose, to demonstrate in many respects what so many of us do when it comes to understanding and appreciating the Eucharist for all that It is to us.
The Eucharist is far more than any It that ever occupied a portion of this world. The Eucharist is God for us to take Him fully--in body and soul-- into ourselves in the most personal and understandable way possible Jesus could've designed. (Yet, even when he first broached the concept, what he said still few right over the heads of those who left him. (Jn 6)
Some very ingenuous Protestant evangelicals came up with a warm means of explaining the benefits of inviting Christ into our lives by getting us to imagine inviting him to come into our homes and taking up residence. They'd offer a narrative description of the house, etc. and how the Lord could make himself at home. Ironically enough, though, the more Protestants strive to reinvent, "upgrade" (a new twist within evangelical circles) and who knows what else to accomplish the same level of both spiritual and physical intimacy we have with Christ--the further they've slid behind or off the path. With respects to how they approach the Eucharist, most of them sure have found ways to prove one of their battle cries "faith alone and not by works" is right on the mark when it comes to accepting the very essence of the Eucharist.
And such efforts remind me of people back during the moon launches who wanted badly to believe we landed up there, but didn't, nevertheless, they were willing to buy into the "urban legend" mother of all loopy conspiracy theories--after the Saturn V lifted off, the capsule landed in some isolated spot, the astronauts were then taken to a hollywood-type studio and voila! Man's up near the moon, if not on it. If people still want to buy into that, they can also buy a side order of fiction written by Dan Brown about Jesus fathering a child by Mary Magdalen. (And, if they're really lucky, they even get to see two movies on the same subjects, respectively, with Tom Hanks in both.)
What St. Paul said about God using illogic to confound the so-called logical and pragmatic people into finally seeing what our faith is all about (esp. insofar as it centers dead-on the Eucharist) was as true 2000 years ago as it remains today with many skeptics ranging from New Agers to evangelical Protestants. It's not theological rocket science. Jesus tried very hard to keep it simple. But only the smarties of his day couldn't get the message very quickly, much less at all for the most unfortunate ones who heard him preach and in essence, spiritually "blew it" for all time: literally.
My suggestion: the Catechism, the Bible, and a willingness to suspend all intellectual claims against the concept of the Real Presence. All of 'em. Clear the deck, wash it down and put on new wax. Then start anew with no preconceptions and let Christ do the teaching through the Catechism, Scripture and a very loving and sincere teacher who'll make it as simple and inviting as possible.
No theological hypotheticals, gobbledygook, etc.
Just the two major playbooks and a great coach. And, of couse, the student's willingness to listen with an equal amount of love for the Subject At Hand.
That way we won't have as many people saying "Rome, we have a .... 
(PS: Chances are somebody in the Vatican Control Center will automatically send my SOS back to a receiving station in Michigan, Louisiana or very Deep in the Bottom of Texas.)
Last edited on Wed May 28th, 2008 10:15 pm by Steven Barrett
____________________ For anybody interested in reading commentary from a Catholic's socially conservative/fiscally liberal viewpoint, go to my new blog at http://www.politicsramble.com/ .
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abbycat Member
| Joined: | Thu Jan 17th, 2008 |
| Location: | Maryland USA |
| Posts: | 138 |
| First Name: | abby | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Non-Denomational Charismatic, Lutheran |
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Posted: Thu May 29th, 2008 02:36 am |
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Jill .... just curious ..... does your friend belong to a church called "Jesus Only?"
Sounds like it.
abby
____________________ <*)))><
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JillD Member

| Joined: | Fri Sep 29th, 2006 |
| Location: | Visalia, California USA |
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| First Name: | Jill | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | heathen, EvFree, Messianic, LC-MS, Catholic 2007 |
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Posted: Thu May 29th, 2008 04:41 am |
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No, he's actually moved from church to church quite a bit. He loves to do street evangelism, talking to the down and out about Christ. I'm not sure where he's going to church at this point. We live about 200 miles from each other and he's only just getting going on Email, which is the medium we've been conversing through lately.
I think he'd make a wonderful Catholic, actually, if he'd just get past his misconceptions.
Jill
____________________ "I praise you, for I am wondrously made. Wonderful are our works! My frame was not hidden from you, when I was being made in secret." Ps 139
"Guard me, O Lord, from the hands of the wicked; preserve me from violent men." Ps 140
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