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JillD
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Posted: Tue Apr 22nd, 2008 11:16 pm |
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Trying to discuss things with my brother (but, boy, it's difficult) and I don't see this particular question among the subject headings under the Eucharist. Is there a Scriptural basis for this singular vocation, only for validly ordained priests to confect the Eucharist? How early in Church history does this practice appear?
Would the fact that I'm discussing this with one who does not believe in the True Body and Blood have a significant bearing? Remember, he sees Passover as the true Eucharist, the real re-presentation of the Lord's Supper, and there's certainly no transsubstantiation going on at Passover at his house.
I can't believe I don't know the answer to this seemingly obvious question!
Thank you!
Jill
____________________
"I praise you, for I am wondrously made. Wonderful are our works! My frame was not hidden from you, when I was being made in secret." Ps 139
"Guard me, O Lord, from the hands of the wicked; preserve me from violent men." Ps 140
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CajunRick
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Posted: Wed Apr 23rd, 2008 12:16 am |
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JillD wrote: I can't believe I don't know the answer to this seemingly obvious question!
I think it's because you are looking past the obvious.
The priest does not transform the Eucharist. Jesus Christ does.
By virtue of his ordination, the imposition of hands by the bishop (the direct successor of the apostles), and the anointing with sacred chrism, the priest stands in the place of Christ and pronounces the words of consecration. In doing so, he calls upon Christ to change the bread and wine into his own Precious Body and Precious Blood.
Read The Mass of the Early Christians by Mike Aquilina for a description of the mass as practiced in the early Church.
The Catechism (1345) quotes St. Justin Martyr in describing the mass:
On the day we call the day of the sun, all who dwell in the city or country gather in the same place.
The memoirs of the apostles and the writings of the prophets are read, as much as time permits.
When the reader has finished, he who presides over those gathered admonishes and challenges them to imitate these beautiful things.
Then we all rise together and offer prayers for ourselves . . .and for all others, wherever they may be, so that we may be found righteous by our life and actions, and faithful to the commandments, so as to obtain eternal salvation.
When the prayers are concluded we exchange the kiss.
Then someone brings bread and a cup of water and wine mixed together to him who presides over the brethren.
He takes them and offers praise and glory to the Father of the universe, through the name of the Son and of the Holy Spirit and for a considerable time he gives thanks (in Greek: eucharistian) that we have been judged worthy of these gifts.
When he has concluded the prayers and thanksgivings, all present give voice to an acclamation by saying: 'Amen.'
When he who presides has given thanks and the people have responded, those whom we call deacons give to those present the "eucharisted" bread, wine and water and take them to those who are absent.
Sound familiar? The only real difference between this description, written in 155, and today's mass is that the "kiss" of peace preceeds the offertory. Pope Benedict has actually called for an evaluation of returning it to that place in the mass.
In 1375, the Catechism quotes St. John Chrysostom:
It is not man that causes the things offered to become the Body and Blood of Christ, but he who was crucified for us, Christ himself. The priest, in the role of Christ, pronounces these words, but their power and grace are God's. This is my body, he says. This word transforms the things offered.
Read the section of the Catechism on the Eucharist beginning at 1322. You'll find extensive quotes from Sacred Scripture, the early Fathers (Sacred Tradition), and the Magisterium, all affirming the fact of transubstantiation and the requirement for an ordained priesthood to act in the place of Christ.
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Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
Luquette Lane
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JillD
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Posted: Wed Apr 23rd, 2008 12:25 am |
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Ok, Rick, let me play my brother...
"He who presides." It doesn't say "priest."
And wasn't Justin Martyr terribly anti-Semitic, or am I mixing him up with someone else? If he was, JM's testimony will hold no water with Don.
I looked at Dave Armstrong's site and found an obvious idea: priests led the sacrifices in the Old Testament.
So, wouldn't reasoning from that tell us that priests would lead the re-presentation of the once-for-all Sacrifice in the New Testament?
Scripture, esp if it's OT, will be the most convincing to him.
____________________
"I praise you, for I am wondrously made. Wonderful are our works! My frame was not hidden from you, when I was being made in secret." Ps 139
"Guard me, O Lord, from the hands of the wicked; preserve me from violent men." Ps 140
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tedjenczewski
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Posted: Wed Apr 23rd, 2008 12:37 am |
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| St Ignatious writes in his letter to the Smyrneans (110 AD) "Let that be considered a valid eucharist which is celebrated by the bishop, or by one whom he appoints". This statement along with biblical references regarding "laying on of hands" confirms that the eucharist must be celebrated by someone who is validly ordained in the line of apostolic succession.
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"...the church of the living God, the pillar and bulwark of the truth." 1Tim 3, 15
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JillD
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Posted: Wed Apr 23rd, 2008 12:39 am |
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Ted, that's good! 110 AD. Pretty early, hah? I'll try to insert that into the discussion. Can you tell me where you found that quote?
Jill
____________________
"I praise you, for I am wondrously made. Wonderful are our works! My frame was not hidden from you, when I was being made in secret." Ps 139
"Guard me, O Lord, from the hands of the wicked; preserve me from violent men." Ps 140
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David W. Emery
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Posted: Wed Apr 23rd, 2008 02:21 am |
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Here, Jill. Chapter 8. The same text is on the (Calvinist) Wheaton College site here, in case he wants to argue about sources.
David
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tedjenczewski
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Posted: Wed Apr 23rd, 2008 02:24 am |
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| St Ignatius of Antioch, Letter to the Smyrneans. The letter is in several books on the writtings of the apostolic fathers such as "The Faith of the Early Fathers", Vol. 1 by William A. Jurgens. The letter is also at the New Advent web site (http://www.newadvent.org) under "Early Fathers"
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"...the church of the living God, the pillar and bulwark of the truth." 1Tim 3, 15
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Credo Catholic
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Posted: Wed Apr 23rd, 2008 03:48 am |
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I'm so jealous! You have someone to banter and discuss with and have friendly disagreements. No one in my family cares enough to talk about it. They will talk sports, politics, work, classes, even lawn care when the grass is getting up there, but not religion. 
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JillD
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Posted: Wed Apr 23rd, 2008 04:32 am |
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Credo Catholic wrote: I'm so jealous! You have someone to banter and discuss with and have friendly disagreements. No one in my family cares enough to talk about it. They will talk sports, politics, work, classes, even lawn care when the grass is getting up there, but not religion.
In my immediate family, the most I hope for is to talk to them about a conversation I might be having with someone like my brother. I've learned that they're just not interested. Even with that, it's just me talking about the conversation. They rarely chime in.
And my conversation with my bro has turned testy. I've been pretty calm. Even my dd who thinks I'm testy has read what I've written and says so. But my bro is getting his hackles up, and so I'm going to drop it for now. He's very, very anti-Catholic. I think Messianic Jews and those who practice their faith as such are as anti-Catholic as they come because they're basically anti-Church:anti-Catholic AND anti-Protestant. They think we should all be doing Passover and Tabernacles and that Christmas and Easter are pagan.
Here's a short portion of our Email exchange:Me: Certainly, that's how it [priest offering the sacrifices] was always done in the Old Testament. If the Eucharist is only viewed as a symbol, a perspective not held in the early church, then I guess anyone can go through the motions and wordings of Communion.
Bro: Portions of the gentile early church maybe looked at it that way, granted, but I doubt all of them did. And I doubt the "remnant," the early Jewish believers, even took "communion" at all. For them, it was probably the 3rd cup and the afikomen at Passover, once a year, until they were pressured to convert to Roman Christianity for fear of life or livelihood. Since these early Jewish believers met in houses after synagogue, I doubt they had a priest to feed it to them.
Pretty pointless, wouldn't you say??? It's so unsubstantiated that I can't even argue. And to tell him it's nonsense would only make him angry.
Henry, if you're reading this, is there anything I can use to reason with him, or should I hang it up? I wonder how he would receive your post from awhile ago about the weekly meeting of the Essenes and a possible origin of Communion.
Jill
Last edited on Wed Apr 23rd, 2008 04:33 am by JillD
____________________
"I praise you, for I am wondrously made. Wonderful are our works! My frame was not hidden from you, when I was being made in secret." Ps 139
"Guard me, O Lord, from the hands of the wicked; preserve me from violent men." Ps 140
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CajunRick
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Posted: Wed Apr 23rd, 2008 11:18 am |
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JillD wrote: "He who presides." It doesn't say "priest."
No, "priest" to the members of the early Church referred to the Jewish priesthood. Only later did the term begin to be applied in the Christian Church. I would suspect the term first came to be used by gentiles.
And wasn't Justin Martyr terribly anti-Semitic, or am I mixing him up with someone else? If he was, JM's testimony will hold no water with Don.
The early Church was still reeling from its expulsion from the temple and synagogues, and the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple by the Romans. The early Church was not anti-Semitic; after all, they were mostly Semites themselves. They were opposed to Jewish authorities, as was Jesus.
I looked at Dave Armstrong's site and found an obvious idea: priests led the sacrifices in the Old Testament. So, wouldn't reasoning from that tell us that priests would lead the re-presentation of the once-for-all Sacrifice in the New Testament?
Priests offered sacrifice in the pagan temples also. That is essentially the definition of "priest" in those days: the person appointed to offer sacrifice on behalf of the people. So the presider is the priest, whether the title is used or not.
The process of ordination we use today developed over centuries, but even in the book of Acts, the apostles imposed hands on the deacons who were selected essentially to wait tables while the apostles themselves devoted themselves to prayer.
The term "priest" was not used in the early Church, which was still separating itself from Jewish and pagan faiths
____________________
Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
Luquette Lane
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Posted: Thu Apr 24th, 2008 01:29 am |
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When I was a Protestant investigating the Catholic Church, I also wondered where the word "priest" came from, since I couldn't see any priests discussed in the New Testament church, other than our high priest, Jesus Christ who is discussed in the letter to the Hebrews. I did a small word study and this is what I learned:
The word "priest" comes from the Greek word "presby"which means "elder." A similar word, "presbys" means "old man." A "presbyter" was a man set apart to govern a church. This much I kind of knew from study notes in my NIV Bible -- that the word "elder" came from the Greek word "presbyter."
Then it got interesting. In doing the word study, I learned that the Old English modification of the Greek word "presbyter" became "proest" pronounced with a long e. In Middle English the spelling of the word changed to "preist" which led to our modern English word "priest."
The word "bishop" began in Greek as "episkopos" (meaning overseer), traveled into Old English as bisceop, and into Middle English as bisshop.
So when we read in English about elders and overseers in the early church, we are seeing the meanings of the Greek words used, but not the actual words themselves. The words "priest" and "bishop" are the very words used when the Apostles set up the Church 2,000 years ago, although the words came to look and sound very differently as they moved from the Greek-speaking part of the world into northern Europe.
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JillD
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Posted: Thu Apr 24th, 2008 02:57 am |
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Jane - Thank you!
When I wrote to my brother, I said that, that 'priest' came from 'presbyter' because I thought I had learned that somewhere - but I wasn't sure. And I was sure that he would be the type to check into it! I'd been a little nervous about it because if I'd remembered wrong, well, I would have heard about it, no doubt. You've boosted my confidence! 
God bless!
Jill
____________________
"I praise you, for I am wondrously made. Wonderful are our works! My frame was not hidden from you, when I was being made in secret." Ps 139
"Guard me, O Lord, from the hands of the wicked; preserve me from violent men." Ps 140
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BillK
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Posted: Thu Apr 24th, 2008 06:54 am |
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Jill,
Please bear with me as I relieve some pent up frustration. My beloved (gentile) wife attends a Messianic Jewish (MJ) church and is exposed to quite a bit of anti-Catholicism. This division is a source of testing for both of us! I’ve attended several worship services and have discussed things with the Rabbi (pastor). My impression is that the Messianic Jewish movement, rather than being “authentically Jewish” as they claim, is much more like Evangelical Protestantism with some Hebrew spoken during their worship service. Some distinctly Jewish beliefs/practices that they seem to reject:
- Orthodox Jewish services are very liturgical much like the Catholic Mass and other Orthodox Christian services. Messianic Jewish services are just like other Evangelical Protestant services I’ve been to - almost no liturgy. Instead, the service is focused on the music and the preacher’s sermon.
- Orthodox Jews believe in something similar to purgatory. Once a month for the first 11 months after the death of a loved one, they pray the mourners Kaddish and there’s another prayer (El Malay Rachamimi). I don’t know the details but the Rabbi (pastor) at my wife’s church even acknowledges this. Yet MJs, just like Protestants, reject the notion of purgatory.
- Orthodox Jews do not accept the concept of “sola-scriptura”. Like Catholics, Jews acknowledge that there is an “oral torah” (sacred tradition) and a “written torah” (sacred scripture). They each compliment one another. Messianic Jews, like Protestants, reject the notion of sacred tradition.
- Orthodox Jews acknowledge that scripture is not self-interpreting. For fear of the oral tradition being lost, the Jews (urged by Rabbi Judah ha-Nasi) recorded the oral tradition in the Mishna. This was followed by the Gemara and then the Shulkhan Arakh. I believe the Talmud is the combination of these sources. According to someone from the Association of Hebrew Catholics, when asked for a specific interpretation of the Law (O.T. scripture), the orthodox rabbi would insist on consulting this “Sacred Tradition”. If you ask me, this sure sounds like the Catechism and the authority of the teaching Magesterium of the Church. Yet, like Protestants, MJs reject any form of sacred tradition (at least that which does not agree with their theology).
There are many other examples of Catholic practices that are distinctly Jewish that are also rejected by Messianic Jews. Some examples:
- Orthodox Jews believe that when the Passover is celebrated, it is not just a memorial but that God somehow mysteriously makes the original Passover a present reality in the liturgy of the Passover Seder. As you probably know, when we celebrate the Sacrifice of the Mass, we are not re-crucifying Jesus as MJs would believe. Instead, God is somehow mysteriously making the once-for-all sacrifice, the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus a present reality in our lives through the liturgy.
- Jewish rabbis believed that in the Messianic Age, the “todah” would be the only remaining sacrifice. “Todah” in Hebrew and “Eucharist” in Greek both mean “thanksgiving”. So in “Catholic language”, the rabbis believed that the Eucharistic Sacrifice would be the only remaining sacrifice in the Messiah’s Kingdom. Melchizedech, the priest-king, offered a “todah” sacrifice consisting of bread and wine just like our Priests do through the Sacred Liturgy. Like Protestants, MJs reject the fact that the Early Christian liturgical celebrations were seen as the offering of a sacrifice (this is proven in the Didache and other 1st/2nd century writings)
- During the Passover, when the lamb was sacrificed, the Jews ate the lamb as part of the liturgical celebration. Like Protestants, MJs reject the Real Presence of the unblemished Passover Lamb in the Eucharist.
- Jews were forbidden to drink the blood of the sacrifice because they believed in doing so, one would share in the life of that which was sacrificed. Consider this when reading John 6.
- In the O.T. Jewish Kingdom, the Mother of the King was the Queen of the Kingdom. Who would the 1st century Jews have expected to be the mother and queen of the Kingdom of Heaven Jesus established? Like most Protestants, MJs reject this special honor given to Mary.
- In the O.T. Jewish Kingdom, the “prime minister” (Al-bayit), was given special authority to lead the kingdom while the king was absent. Is 22:22 describes Eliakim as having this role. The king granted the “al-bayit” the “keys to the kingdom”. What do you think would come to the mind of a Jew when Jesus used the same language of Is 22:22 when granting the keys of the Kingdom to Peter? Like many Protestants, MJs reject any special prominence or authority that Peter had and the office to which he and his successors are commissioned.
- If you use the same bible as MJs, it won’t include 1st and 2nd Macabees and therefore no O.T. foundation for celebrating Chanukah. Having celebrated Chanukah himself, Jesus either accepted 1st and 2nd Macabees as “sacred scripture” or he believed in “sacred tradition”. MJs reject both sacred tradition and the deutero-canonical books as sacred scripture.
- The Jewish faith acknowledges God manifests himself in very real, tangible (i.e. sacramental) ways (burning bush, cloud of smoke, pillar of fire, presence in Temple, etc.). This belief is present in the Church and in the sacraments, especially the Eucharist. MJs, like many other Protestants, reject all of the sacraments.
- Orthodox Jews practice a ceremonial cleansing (immersion in water) that is recognized as a means of purification. Catholics and many other Protestants see baptism as regenerative and a means of purification from original sin. MJs, like some Protestants and in opposition to unanimous writings of the early church, reject the regenerative nature of baptism and see it as merely symbolic.
- Jews respond to the covenant God made with Abraham by circumcising their children, typically on the eighth day. Catholics, like many Protestants, see baptism as an initiation into the New Covenant. MJs, like Evangelical Protestants, reject infant baptism and see it as merely a symbolic gesture.
- Like most Protestants (in opposition to what even the Reformers believed), MJs reject the perpetual virginity of Mary and claim she bore other children. Yet, being from a good Jewish family, these blood-brothers of Jesus would have taken care of Mary after Jesus’ death. So how does a MJ interpret Jesus’ words to John – “Woman, behold your son …. Behold your mother” (Jn 19:26f)?
- Jews, like the Catholic Church, hold councils to discuss and resolve, among other things, doctrinal issues (Just like the council of Jerusalem in Acts 15). MJs, like many Protestants, hold no such meetings, but instead usually end up dividing instead of resolving issues. (The church my wife goes to formed as a result of a dispute with the church it splintered from).
Sounds to me like the Catholic Church is far more Jewish than the Messianic Jewish movement!!! But then what would you expect from something born of a Jewish Rabbi some 2000 years ago?!!!! Having said that, I must admit that my opinions are based only on my observances from one MJ church and the writings of a few MJ “scholars”. Given that the MJ movement follows the same ecclesiastical structure as many other Protestant denominations (that is none!), practices and beliefs among MJs surely vary.
Thanks for putting up with my rant (assuming you made it this far!). I know it’s a bit off topic but I couldn’t help myself!
Shalom!
Bill
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JillD
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Posted: Thu Apr 24th, 2008 07:26 am |
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Bill, What an excellent list! I wish I could get my brother to read and ponder it. I think he'd have to admit that MJ'ish is not really very Jewish. Like you said, Protestantism with some Hebrew thrown in and some Christianized Biblical feasts and maybe some Hebraic dancing... Do they dance at Orthodox Jewish services? I don't THINK so!
I think you and Henry ought to get collaborating on that book he's threatening to write.
Jill
____________________
"I praise you, for I am wondrously made. Wonderful are our works! My frame was not hidden from you, when I was being made in secret." Ps 139
"Guard me, O Lord, from the hands of the wicked; preserve me from violent men." Ps 140
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Tina in Ashburn
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Posted: Thu Apr 24th, 2008 12:07 pm |
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Bill, loved your list too! I'm very interested in the Church's Jewish roots. What an excellent illustration.
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Tina
Arlington Diocese
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JillD
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Posted: Thu Apr 24th, 2008 02:00 pm |
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Hi Bill,
I was thinking to myself how great it would be if I could get my brother to read and respond to each of your points. Have you presented that list to your wife? How does she answer them??????? I can't imagine that there are valid responses, but I'm always amazed at the fast footwork people can pull off when they're put on the hotseat, so to speak.
I'm saving this list in my 'keep forever' Email file. Back-up ammo for the next time I'm told how un-Biblical Catholicism is.
Jill
____________________
"I praise you, for I am wondrously made. Wonderful are our works! My frame was not hidden from you, when I was being made in secret." Ps 139
"Guard me, O Lord, from the hands of the wicked; preserve me from violent men." Ps 140
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Hidden One
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Posted: Thu Apr 24th, 2008 10:43 pm |
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Bill, that's serious, useful, not-well-known genuine apologetics material. Two thumbs up!
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1 John 4:7-12
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BillK
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Posted: Fri Apr 25th, 2008 05:33 am |
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Jill,
For the most part I keep these findings from my wife. She has absolutely no interest in anything Catholic – this is what I find so frustrating. Our marriage is still healing from years of me trying to argue my wife into the Church. Any time I bring something up, it turns into an argument. I try to plant the occasional seed but have found the best way for me to witness to her is to love her and to pray about the situation. I believe God is using all of this to help me grow in love and to put my trust in Him instead of myself. Seems to be working but I’ve still got a loooong way to go.
I had second thoughts about the post because I’m not 100% sure of the accuracy of some of the analogies. For example, I was taught in our Diocese Biblical Studies program that the sacrifice that Melchizedech offered was a “todah” sacrifice but I’ve also read elsewhere that the “todah” sacrifice was usually an animal. Also, I’ve heard from some that when Jews pray the mourners Kaddish, they believe the prayers have “merit” for the soul of the departed. At the same time, MJ’s insist that they don’t. It’s sooooo confusing for me to know what is truth. The Magesterium was a major reason for my “reversion” to the Church but it is difficult for me to find authoritative information on these more subtle aspects of our faith. I’m hoping that “Henry” (I believe he’s a MJ seriously considering entering into the Church), reads the post and can make corrections or clarifications if necessary.
So you can try to present this to your brother. I would suggest one thing at a time and maybe phrase it as a question rather than a statement.
- What is an ORTHODOX Jewish service like? Maybe you and your brother could attend one together.
- Can you tell me a bit about the Kaddish? What do Jewish rabbi’s believe is it’s purpose?
- What are the Talmud and Mishna? What is their purpose?
- What is a “mikvah”? Is it similar to baptism?
- Was eating the sacrificed lamb part of the Passover Seder liturgy? Do you know why Jews had strict laws regarding the blood of the sacrificed animals?
Hopefully you’ll have more success with your brother than I’ve had with my wife. I will pray for you and your brother and ask for your prayers in return.
Bill
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JillD
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| Posts: | 711 |
| First Name: | Jill | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | heathen, EvFree, Messianic, LC-MS, Catholic 2007 |
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Posted: Fri Apr 25th, 2008 05:54 am |
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Bill, I don't know about you, but I find it so hard to restrain myself and ask questions like you suggested, that it's almost better for me to say nothing at all. I might start that way, but after a couple of exchanges, I'm sounding like some sort of Baptist preacher, telling it like it is!
I keep having people telling me that they're praying for me to come to my senses and, boy, am I tired of that one! I know of 4 separate families/people doing this, that I might come back into full fellowship with them. I guess I should appreciate their concern, but instead it's infuriating. 
Mostly, I hold my tongue, too. I'm realizing that trying to share is generally pointless, unless someone asks, and no one is asking.
You, and all who lack unity in their homes, are in my prayers.
Jill
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"I praise you, for I am wondrously made. Wonderful are our works! My frame was not hidden from you, when I was being made in secret." Ps 139
"Guard me, O Lord, from the hands of the wicked; preserve me from violent men." Ps 140
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hpj0828
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| Joined: | Sun Apr 1st, 2007 |
| Location: | USA |
| Posts: | 141 |
| First Name: | Henry | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Messianic Jewish believer, Hebrew Catholic |
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Posted: Sun Apr 27th, 2008 06:03 pm |
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Hi Jill and Bill,
I have been delighted by Bill K's responses. I would enjoy getting to know him better, online or elsewhere. Bill: Are you Jewish?
I probably have lower standards than most. For me, I'm delighted if a Jewish person even acknowledges the Messiahship of Jesus. This is such a hurdle, that anything else seems minor by comparison. I have friends who are MJs and attend Messianic Synagogues. I don't try to make them into Catholics. They are curious enough as to why I joined the church, but know me well enough that I would not have done so, without some pretty cogent reasons! They generally do not have enough background in Jewish literature and tradition to make much of an argument...
My goal with them is merely to get them to see that joining the RCC is a reasonable option, not heretical. Then, I leave it there.
Oddly enough, I have found that one of the oldest Messianic congregations in America, Beth Yeshua in Phila. has a youth leader who regularly plays music for a children's mass at a local RCC church! I am working together with him to create some kind of exchange between Messianic synagogues and our local diocese. It is very much a work in progress.
One thing that I have to add to the previous discussion on priesthood is the practice of smicha --which is the laying on of hands for rabbinic ordination. Smicha was conferred from rabbi to disciple in an unbroken chain through the generations. Until Smicha, a disciple did not have the right to the title of Rabbi. Part of the responsibilites of smicha was the preservation of the oral teachings of all the prior rabbis in the chain. These teachings were memorized and recited via chanting and were eventually written down in the Mishnah and Talmuds. Smicha was a pre-requisite for a rabbi serving in public office, such as being on the Sanhedrin, which ruled both on religious and civil issues in the 1st C.
From Smicha, we get the NT concept of the laying on of hands to confer a church office onto an individual.
So, what the Catholic Church does in apostolic succession again proves to be a continuation of Jewish tradition.
Here's a question for your brother to ponder:
A MJ position:
1. We don't need Jewish tradition as embodied in the Mishnah and Talmud to interpret Jewish belief and practice.
2. We don't need the Eucharist, but only the afikomen as expressed in the Passover Seder.
This is inconsistent. Why?
The use of the afikomen in the Passover seder can nowhere be found in the Torah or the Old Testament. So, how did the afikomen become an official custom, enshrined in the Haggadah? Not everything in the Haggadah goes back to the 1st C. For example, the cup of Elijah originated in the Middle Ages. (Do MJs who practice this cup have an explanation for how they don't rely on rabbinic tradition?) So, where is the source in Jewish literature which proves the antiquity of the afikomen custom?
Where is the afikomen first described in Jewish literature? Guess... The Mishnah, Pesachim 10. Pesachim 10 describes all of the practices in the order of the seder: the 4 cups of wine, the Hillel sandwich of bitter herbs, R. Gamaliel's legislation that we are obligated to interpret the elements of the Passover meal, etc.
The ENTIRE PASSOVER MEAL, including all its customs, COMES WHOLLY OUT OF THE MISHNAH!
To say one can celebrate the Passover without reference to the oral tradition is, sad to say, RIDICULOUS! These customs can not be found anywhere else!
Food to chew on...
Henry
Last edited on Sun Apr 27th, 2008 07:00 pm by hpj0828
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HPJ
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hpj0828
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| Joined: | Sun Apr 1st, 2007 |
| Location: | USA |
| Posts: | 141 |
| First Name: | Henry | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Messianic Jewish believer, Hebrew Catholic |
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Posted: Sun Apr 27th, 2008 06:50 pm |
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On the subject of the Real Presence of the Messiah in the Eucharistic bread, I would go to the description of the "show bread" or "bread of the presence" which is placed on the table inside of the Tabernacle.
30 Put the bread of the Presence on this table to be before me at all times.
The Hebrew for this expression from Ex. 25:30
V'natata al ha-shulchan lechem panim l'fanai tamid
V'natata = And you shall give/put
al = upon
ha-shulchan = the table
lechem = bread
of - (understood, but not written, from Hebrew construct form)
panim = face or presence
l'fanai = before me, lit. to my face
tamid = always
So, this verse is literally:
"And you shall give the table bread of (face/presence) (before me/to my face) always."
So, the bread being placed on the table in the holy place of the tabernacle is called "bread of God's face"
So, within this bread is the presence of God. More than this, within this bread is the face of God! When I am looking at the Eucharistic bread, I am staring directly into the Messiah's face!
Shalom!
Henry
Last edited on Sun Apr 27th, 2008 07:05 pm by hpj0828
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HPJ
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JillD
Member
| Joined: | Fri Sep 29th, 2006 |
| Location: | Visalia, California USA |
| Posts: | 711 |
| First Name: | Jill | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | heathen, EvFree, Messianic, LC-MS, Catholic 2007 |
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Posted: Sun Apr 27th, 2008 08:05 pm |
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