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JustaServant
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| First Name: | James | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Catholic |
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Posted: Fri Apr 11th, 2008 10:02 pm |
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Quoting an anti-Catholic:
“You Catholic's don't know what you're missing when you don't rock with Jesus. Church is supposed to be fun and full of Joy and happiness. But yours seems like going to funeral and so dignified and boring. In my Church, sometimes we even dance in the Spirit, have Holy laughter, and run and dance. When God shows up anything can happen. Why do you want to restrict Him so much? What is all this that I am talking about? The manifest presence of God.”
Golfjack, Spero Forum.
When the Eucharist is removed from a Christian’s life, they are forever trying to find something to replace it with.
Some (like me) try Bible study. But no amount of knowledge, memorization, or meditation on the Sacred Scriptures can give me what the Eucharist gives me. Some try music. Emotional music can make my toe tap or bring me to tears. But as good as music is, it can never give me what can give me what the Eucharist gives me. Others, like our poor mislead friend above look for ‘miracles and manifestations’. They at least know there is something more, an encounter with the Divine. But there is no greater miracle or manifestation greater than that which is found in the Eucharist.
Jesus said “lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world.” This is made real through the Eucharist as we connect with the Risen Christ through the power of the Holy Spirit.
Jesus instituted the new covenant. He said this is my body with the focus on the bread. He said this is my blood with the focus on the wine. So when I take communion every Sunday I realize that by the power of the Holy Spirit I am in this everlasting covenant with God through the blood of His Son.
And as I take the elements into myself, by the power of the Holy Spirit I am receiving Christ into me, mind, body, and soul, and our lives flow as one. His body strengthens me, His blood renews life in me, He is feeding me His very self. Christ feeds us spiritual food and we, in eating and drinking, have received His very Life through the sacraments.
As Jesus sat down with two on the road to Emmaus “he took bread, and blessed it, and brake, and gave to them. And their eyes were opened, and they knew him” Later they told the Apostles: “what things were done in the way, and how he was known of them in breaking of bread.”
In the Holy Eucharist we have the one sacrament whose principal purpose is to increase sanctifying grace, repeatedly and often, through personal union with the Giver of grace Himself.
That is why the Holy Eucharist is preeminently the sacrament of spiritual growth, of increase in spiritual stature and strength.
That is why the soul already must be in the state of sanctifying grace when we receive Holy Communion—in other words, free from mortal sin.
Physical food cannot benefit a dead body, and the Holy Eucharist cannot benefit a dead soul.
Since I have returned to the Church, I have seen more spiritual growth than I ever dreamed possible. Things have become clearer to me than they were before.
In the arena, before they went out to die, Christians would partake of the Eucharist. And mystically, but also in reality, they went out stronger human beings to face whatever there was to face.
No amount “holy” laughter or “jumping and dancing” in the Spirit can replace that.
Catholics have the “manifest presence of God” in the Eucharist.
____________________
Former fundamentalist preacher, now a Catholic.
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Dave Armstrong
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| Joined: | Fri Nov 2nd, 2007 |
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| First Name: | Dave | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Evangelical (1977): Diverse Protestant Influences / Catholic in 1990 |
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Posted: Sat Apr 12th, 2008 12:31 am |
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Hi James,
That's a wonderful meditation and testimony. Thanks!
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I'm happy to offer whatever theological & personal assistance I can. My blog, Biblical Evidence for Catholicism, contains 2000+ papers & web pages (absolutely free) & 16 apologetic books (for sale):
http://www.biblicalcatholic.com/
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EMarshallBuckles
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| Joined: | Mon Nov 19th, 2007 |
| Location: | Rockville (Near Richmond), Virginia USA |
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| First Name: | Marshall | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Christian Church,Episcopal Church,Baptist denomination,learning about RCC |
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Posted: Sat Apr 12th, 2008 04:56 am |
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| I realize that some people want to be all "happy clappy" in worship services, however, I think that needs to be for "Christian rallys", "hymn sings" and so forth which do not involve the Eucharist/Holy Communion. While I respect the desire and need of some people to have fun, sing and get all hyped up to worship God, frankly speaking, that just does not work for me on a frequent and regular basis. While wishing my "happy clappy" brothers and sisters in Christ well, any church I attend, other than once, on a fairly regular basis, is going to have to have dignified, traditional worship, so to speak. And, again, I do NOT feel that the Communion/Eucharist service was meant to be anything other than respectful and dignified. In my humble opinion.
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EMarshallBuckles
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| Location: | Rockville (Near Richmond), Virginia USA |
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| First Name: | Marshall | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Christian Church,Episcopal Church,Baptist denomination,learning about RCC |
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Posted: Sat Apr 12th, 2008 05:03 am |
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Oh, also, as a non-Catholic Christian (well, maybe I am starting to be sort of "closet Catholic", ha, ha  - BUT DON'T TELL MY BAPTIST CHURCH THAT  , ha, ha ), I leave wide open the door for the Real Presence of Christ in Catholic Masses (and I think that He is at least "in the room with us" in non-Catholic Communion services although it may be more of a "memorial service" as some say). I like to think that the Real Presence is truly the way the Mass is and it gives me comfort to think that.
By the way, my daughter is studying Shakespeare, in her high school home school English class. She is studying Shakespeare's "Julius Caeasar" so I got a video of the play for us to watch. In the play, they kept mentioning "the Tiber River", from time to time. And, of course, I kept being reminded of YOU all!! Ha, ha!!
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JustaServant
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| Joined: | Wed Dec 19th, 2007 |
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| First Name: | James | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Catholic |
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Posted: Sat Apr 12th, 2008 09:33 am |
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EMarshallBuckles wrote: I realize that some people want to be all "happy clappy" in worship services, however, I think that needs to be for "Christian rallys", "hymn sings" and so forth which do not involve the Eucharist/Holy Communion. While I respect the desire and need of some people to have fun, sing and get all hyped up to worship God, frankly speaking, that just does not work for me on a frequent and regular basis. While wishing my "happy clappy" brothers and sisters in Christ well, any church I attend, other than once, on a fairly regular basis, is going to have to have dignified, traditional worship, so to speak. And, again, I do NOT feel that the Communion/Eucharist service was meant to be anything other than respectful and dignified. In my humble opinion.
I have been to a few Charismatic churches over the years and it runs the gamet from the subdued (lots of singing and hands in the air), to the wild (exactly what this fellow describes). I would say the quote in the OP is not untypical of Charismatic christians. But it has been my experience they tend not be anti-Catholic. Many Charismatics are open and respectful to the Catholic Church. My theory is that they are indeed searching for something more, they just don't know how to express it.
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Former fundamentalist preacher, now a Catholic.
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Free
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| Joined: | Wed Nov 28th, 2007 |
| Location: | Michigan USA |
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| First Name: | Jane | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Presbyterian, Gnostic, non-denominational, Catholic |
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Posted: Sat Apr 12th, 2008 09:48 am |
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Yes, always searching, always seeking. At the charismatic church I attended, the pastor would pray before every service, "Jesus, make yourself real to us, make yourself known to us," yet he was blind to the truth that Jesus offered in the Scriptures to make himself known to us in the breaking of the bread; that he offered us the real food of his flesh. They are still over there in that church, with no cross, with communion twice a year at most, with their hands in the air, pleading for Jesus to make himself real, to make himself known to them. My heart often aches for them, and I intercede in prayer for them often.
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japhy
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| Joined: | Thu Apr 26th, 2007 |
| Location: | Princeton, New Jersey USA |
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| First Name: | Jeff (you can call me "japhy" | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Catholic (Latin Rite) |
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Posted: Sat Apr 12th, 2008 12:20 pm |
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I think our behavior is best described by the chant of the Divine Liturgy of St. James: "Let all mortal flesh be silent and stand with fear and trembling."
And see Habakkuk 2:20 and Zechariah 2:17. Sometimes words are not enough... sometimes, we must add silence.
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[Mary said,] "Do whatever he tells you." - John 2:5
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Pani Rose
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| Joined: | Fri Oct 5th, 2007 |
| Location: | Irondale, Alabama USA |
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| First Name: | Rose | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Ruthenian Byzantine in a Melkite Greek Catholic Parish, raised ... |
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Posted: Sat Apr 12th, 2008 03:20 pm |
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That is the awesomeness of the Lords Catholic Church, he makes room 
Being Eastern Catholic, I cannot imagine bringing 'charismatic worship' into the Divine Liturgy. Nor could I in the everyday worship of the Mass. Yet, he sets apart those awesome times when as Charismatic Catholics - which in some way we all are since we have been sealed with the Holy Spirit - but it is a special time of praise and worship before our Lord set apart in which the praying in tongues and the words of knowlege come forth.
The Catholic and Orhtodox Churches do everything in a manner of propriety and order that is the nature of our God - love, propiety, and order(along with many others). So when those special times come they are still in an order. Even prayer meetings have a clear order and propiety to them.
So there are times that we come before our Eucharistic Lord in loud praise and worship, but alway with that awarness of God's being in our presence, in respect, and in control. If you like to learn more about the Catholic Charismatic Renewal go here http://ccc.garg.com
Pani Rose
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Dave Armstrong
Network Apologist
| Joined: | Fri Nov 2nd, 2007 |
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Posted: Sat Apr 12th, 2008 06:39 pm |
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Protestant charismatics often have "sacramental" tendencies. For example, they are big on prayer clothes and anointed oil and water from the Jordan river and things like that. It's an understanding that matter can convey grace or (as they would more likely say) "blessing."
Charismatics are usually Arminian, and far less likely to be anti-Catholic than the Calvinists or the Reformed tradition.
____________________
I'm happy to offer whatever theological & personal assistance I can. My blog, Biblical Evidence for Catholicism, contains 2000+ papers & web pages (absolutely free) & 16 apologetic books (for sale):
http://www.biblicalcatholic.com/
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Didi
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| Joined: | Mon Mar 3rd, 2008 |
| Location: | Oregon USA |
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Posted: Sun Apr 13th, 2008 08:09 pm |
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JustaServant wrote: When the Eucharist is removed from a Christian’s life, they are forever trying to find something to replace it with.
I have heard Catholic scholars comment on this in relation to the whole rapture theory. Because Catholics have Jesus, Truly Present, in the Holy Eucharist, we are already with Him at every Mass, every time we receive Holy Communion, and every time we adore Him in the Holy Eucharist.
Those who long for the "rapture" long to be in Jesus' true presence, which is perhaps how the whole rapture theory got started.
Of course, we wait with "joyful hope" for the Second Coming of Jesus, but in the meantime, He's already with us in every tabernacle of every Catholic Church throughout the world! So we don't have that "longing" that many protestants have.
Several years ago we had a healing prayer service for me at our Church and several of our non-Catholic friends attended. A couple of them mentioned that they instantly felt the presence of the Holy Spirit when they entered the Church. I said, that's because Jesus is Truly Present in the Holy Eucharist, reserved in the Tabernacle. Some just sort of rolled their eyes; others have continued to ask questions about our faith!
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Intercessor
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| Joined: | Tue Sep 25th, 2007 |
| Location: | Southcentral, Kentucky USA |
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| First Name: | Becky | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Southern Baptist, Catholic |
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Posted: Sun Apr 13th, 2008 09:48 pm |
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japhy wrote:
I think our behavior is best described by the chant of the Divine Liturgy of St. James: "Let all mortal flesh be silent and stand with fear and trembling."
And see Habakkuk 2:20 and Zechariah 2:17. Sometimes words are not enough... sometimes, we must add silence.
Jeff, you are so right. How I used to crave silence and reverence!
Becky
____________________
"The perfection of a soul may be measured by the degree to which it does the will of God, and finds its happiness in doing it.... O my God,...the only thing necessary is Your holy will," Divine Intimacy, pp. 15-16 Father Gabriel, O.C.D.
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