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Help Thou My Unbelief
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Candlemass
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 Posted: Fri Feb 15th, 2008 12:40 pm

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I am comming around to the belief of "real presence", I just listened to a CD last night on the mass explained. If I am understanding this correctly, this is tantamount with entering the "Holy of Holies", the correlation of those who partake unworthaly and the Jewish priests who died when entering w/sin seems undeniable. I find myself like one of the men in the Gospels, I believe Lord, help thou my unbelief!



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 Posted: Fri Feb 15th, 2008 03:32 pm

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Belief in the Real Presence comes through grace. We receive additional grace through confession and receiving the Lord. I find my faith also grows as I attend Adoration. I hope, in addition to frequent confession and frequent Mass, that you can establish a regular pattern of attending Adoration. I'm quite sure Fr. Corapi (I remember that you admire him greatly.) would agree, Mark.


God bless,
Becky



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Dave Armstrong
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 Posted: Fri Feb 15th, 2008 03:43 pm

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It goes beyond even the awesomeness of the Holy of Holies, because Jesus is present Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity (whereas the Holy of Holies was only a "spiritual" presence of God). We take Him into our very Body. As for partaking unworthily, St. Paul refers to that:

1 Corinthians 11:27-30  Whoever, therefore, eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of profaning the body and blood of the Lord. Let a man examine himself, and so eat of the bread and drink of the cup. For any one who eats and drinks without discerning the body eats and drinks judgment upon himself. That is why many of you are weak and ill, and some have died.
Compare 1 Corinthians 10:16:

The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not a participation in the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not a participation in the body of Christ?
Paul interprets the whole thing quite literally indeed. It is surprising, then, that so many Protestants seem to miss that, and ironic because they favor literal interpretation of the Bible, except when it comes to the Eucharist, as also in John 6.



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 Posted: Sat Feb 16th, 2008 03:07 am

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I remember one of my first experiences with Adoration (I'd only gone to Mass once, actually) and that prayer was one that was on my lips the entire time.  "I believe, Lord help my unbelief."  And boy did God answer me.



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 Posted: Sat Feb 16th, 2008 03:21 am

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Kayla wrote: I remember one of my first experiences with Adoration (I'd only gone to Mass once, actually) and that prayer was one that was on my lips the entire time.  "I believe, Lord help my unbelief."  And boy did God answer me.
Than I hope He does the same for me!



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 Posted: Tue Mar 11th, 2008 03:34 pm

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:confused:O.K. folks.  Help my unbelief.  Have you ever had the thought run through your mind, "Isn't this just superstition?"  :shrugging: These thoughts keeps popping up in my head as I close in on the Tiber.  After all, we are an enlightened generation.  There's no denying the teachings of the church fathers.  They truely believed that the bread and wine became the body and blood of Christ.  But then, they were a superstitious lot weren't they?  They didn't have the scientific understanding of the world that we do today.  Everything had a spiritual meaning.  Graces through inamninate objects?  Isn't that just the evidence of a non-enlightened mind.  Sometimes I feel like this is an archaic primitive understanding of life where there's a "spirit" for everything.  :needhelp:My mind tells me I'm wrong and but my inner thoughts keep questioning my beliefs.  Sometimes I feel like...:headbang: 

How do ya'll deal and answer these crazy thoughts?

Rich:drowning:


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 Posted: Tue Mar 11th, 2008 03:42 pm

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Rich,

Your thoughts are not crazy, they are a result of living in the modern world. What brought me around from my liberal religious background was the fact that IT WORKS. As Jesus said, "the proof is in the pudding," or something like that. Oh, yeah, that was "by their fruits you shall know them." By this same line of reasoning, the healing caused by the sacraments, the indwelling of the Holy Spirit of which we are assured by our Confirmation, the peace I know at Eucharistic Adoration or praying the rosary, and a thousand other things, are proof of the truth of our faith.

Pax.



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 Posted: Tue Mar 11th, 2008 04:07 pm

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Annie wrote:  As Jesus said, "the proof is in the pudding," or something like that.

 

:reading:Uh..do you have a chapter and verse for that? 

I'm afraid that's an answer though that won't satisfy a lot of people.  Don't get me wrong.  My mind says it's true...it's just these thoughts really bug me from time to time...especially now that I'm seriously thinking about this making the radical change.  And if anyone confuses me with "liberal", ha, if they only knew me.  "Liberal" is a four-letter word for me.  I have this suspicion that a lot of us are confessing Christians and believe the supernatural means of grace, but are practicing athiests who act like anything supernatural is simply superstition.  If I hear you right, logic will not provide the answer even though our Lord said, "Come let us reason together."  Sigh....

Rich


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 Posted: Tue Mar 11th, 2008 06:30 pm

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Hi Rich,

I think it is a situation where you simply have to exercise faith. You say "my mind say's it's true." That's about three-quarters of the battle right there because for most folks looking at Catholicism from the outside, they can't wrap their minds around it. It appears goofy, weird, unnecessary, and antiquated to them.

What you're going through is a struggle of will and emotion (and I think the devil gets in there, too and does his dirty work). The Bible passage that your situation reminds me of is Doubting Thomas. He was having trouble accepting what Jesus said about His Resurrection (a supernatural thing involving His Body). You are having difficulty accepting in faith Jesus' word in John 6 and at the Last Supper, regarding the Holy Eucharist (also a supernatural thing involving His Body).

Likewise, the doubting disciples in John 6 said, "This is a hard saying; who can listen to it?" (6:60) They wouldn't accept His teaching, because it was too "hard" for them. And so they "drew back and no longer went with him" (6:66). One of the best observations I've seen about this "eucharistic unbelief" comes from the great Catholic writer Romano Guardini:

Should they have understood? Hardly. It is inconceivable that at any time anyone could have grasped intellectually the meaning of these words. But they should have believed. They should have clung to Christ blindly, wherever he led them. They should have sensed . . . that they were being directed toward something unspeakably huge, and simply said: we do not understand; show us what you mean. Instead they judge, and everything closes to them.

(The Lord, translated by Elinor C. Briefs, Chicago: Henry Regnery, 1954, 206)


Jesus' closest followers are hard-pressed, but He does not help them. He forces them to a decision of life or death; are they ready to accept the fullness of revelation, which necessarily overthrows earthly wisdom, or do they insist on judging revelation, delimiting its 'possibilities' from their own perspective? . . . Jesus turns to the remaining hard core: `Do you also wish to go away?' . . . Still not a word of help, only the hard, pure demand for a decision . . . They do not understand either, but struck by the power of the mystery, they surrender themselves to it. They are dumbfounded but trustful; at least most of them . . .

Apparently there is no genuine belief without battle. Every believer worthy of the name must sometime undergo the danger of scandal and its trial by fire . . . It was the shock that probably shattered Judas' faith, the other eleven saving themselves only by a blind leap of trust to the Master's feet . . . Here is the steepest, highest pinnacle of our faith (or the narrowest, most precipitous pass through which that faith must labor) . . . faith's supreme test . . .

Jesus desires that men receive and make their own the gift of His vital essence, strength, His very Person as fully and intimately as they receive and assimilate the strength and nourishment of bread and wine. He even adds that the person who is not so nourished cannot possess ultimate life.

(Meditations Before Mass, translated by Elinor C. Briefs, Westminster, MD: Newman Press, 1955, 164-167)
This is faith. We don't have to understand everything to the nth degree. Faith and spirituality are not science, where everything is mind and rationality and empiricism, and the supernatural is ruled out by definition and methodology and presupposition alike. There is always a leap (actually science requires many "leaps" as well, where absolute knowledge is lacking, but that is another story). Christianity in general is like that. There are a number of things difficult to grasp and accept, but we accept them based on the authority of revelation.

But back to Doubting Thomas. He didn't believe that Jesus could rise from the dead, even the Our Lord had often predicted just this in the presence of the disciples. He had to see it for himself. What I love about this passage is that Jesus is merciful and understanding enough to appear for Thomas' sake. He knew his faith was weak, and so He offered a little "extra" to help him along. He knew that Thomas had that overly empirical mindset (he had said he had to put his finger in Jesus' side, then he would believe: John 20:25). So Jesus allowed him to do that (20:27). This results (rather dramatically) in Thomas calling Jesus "God": one of the most remarkable instances of the deity of Jesus in the NT (20:28).

Now here is the part that I love. After doing this, Jesus nevertheless says, "Have you believed because you have seen me? Blessed are those who have not seen and yet believe." (20:29). He came to Thomas because he was weak, but at the same time He made it clear that this would not be the norm, and that believers would have to exercise faith and not demand empirical proof. We can read the story today, but that also requires faith to believe that it happened exactly the way that Scripture records it.

In a cover story on the Eucharist that I wrote for Envoy Magazine, I stated (in reply to Zwingli's belief in a purely symbolic Eucharist):

The Eucharist was intended by God as a different kind of miracle from the outset, requiring more profound faith, as opposed to the "proof" of tangible, empirical miracles. But in this it was certainly not unique among Christian doctrines and traditional beliefs -- many fully shared by our Protestant brethren. The Virgin Birth, for example, cannot be observed or proven, and is the utter opposite of a demonstrable miracle, yet it is indeed a miracle of the most extraordinary sort.

Likewise, in the Atonement of Jesus the world sees a wretch of a beaten and tortured man being put to death on a cross. The Christian, on the other hand, sees there the great miracle of Redemption and the means of the salvation of mankind -- an unspeakably sublime miracle, yet who but those with the eyes of faith can see or believe it? In fact, the disciples (with the possible exception of St. John, the only one present) didn't even know what was happening at the time.

Baptism, according to most Christians, imparts real grace of some sort to those who receive it. But this is rarely evident or tangible, especially in infants. Lastly, the Incarnation itself was not able to be perceived as an outward miracle, though it might be considered the most incredible miracle ever. Jesus appeared as a man like any other man. He ate, drank, slept, had to wash, experienced emotion, suffered, etc. He performed miracles and foretold the future, and ultimately raised Himself from the dead, and ascended into heaven in full view, but the Incarnation - strictly viewed in and of itself -, was not visible or manifest in the tangible, concrete way to which Herr Zwingli seems to foolishly think God would or must restrict Himself.

To summarize, Jesus looked, felt, and sounded like a man; no one but those possessing faith would know (from simply observing Him) that He was also God, an uncreated Person who had made everything upon which He stood, who was the Sovereign and Judge of every man with whom He came in contact (and also of those He never met). Therefore, Zwingli's argument proves too much and must be rejected. If the Eucharist is abolished by this supposed "biblical reasoning," then the Incarnation (and by implication, the Trinity) must be discarded along with it.

Besides all that, did not Jesus habitually call us on to a more sublime faith? For instance, in Matthew 12:38-39, Jesus had one of His frequent run-ins with the Pharisees, who requested of Him:


Teacher, we wish to see a sign from you.' But he answered them, 'An evil and adulterous generation asks for a sign, but no sign will be given to it except the sign of the prophet Jonah.'

(cf. Matthew 16:1-4, Luke 11:29-30, John 2:18-22; NRSV)
Note that He does implicitly appeal to the sign of His Resurrection, but look how He regards the seeking of signs! (see also Mark 8:11-12). In fact, in the eucharistic passage of John 6 our Lord Jesus seems to emphasize the same point by the thrust of His dialogue. He mentions "signs" in 6:26 in reference to the feeding of the five thousand the previous day, but then when they ask Him for a "sign" (6:30), He spurs them on to the more profound faith required with regard to the eucharistic miracle.

Signs, wonders, and miracles (that is, in the empirical, outward sense which Zwingli demands for the Eucharist) do not suffice for many hard-hearted people anyway:

. . . If they do not listen to Moses and the prophets, neither will they be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.

(Luke 16:31)

For Jews demand signs and Greeks desire wisdom, but we proclaim Christ crucified, a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles......For God's foolishness is wiser than human wisdom, and God's weakness is stronger than human strength.

(1 Corinthians 1:22-23,25)
 

Jesus could walk through walls after His Resurrection (John 20:26), and even a mere man, Philip, could be "caught away" and transported to another place by God (Acts 8:39-40). So Zwingli, and Protestants who follow his reasoning, think God "couldn't" or "wouldn't" have performed the miracle of the Real Presence and Transubstantiation (which means, literally, "change of substance")? I don't find this line of thought convincing in the least, and no one should rashly attempt to "tie" God's hands by such arguments of alleged implausibility. The fact remains that God clearly can perform any miracle He so chooses.

Many Christian beliefs require a great deal of faith, even relatively "blind" faith. Protestants manage to believe in a number of such doctrines (such as the Trinity, God's eternal existence, omnipotence, angels, the power of prayer, instantaneous justification, the Second Coming, etc.). Why should the Real Presence be singled out for excessive skepticism and unchecked rationalism? I contend that it is due to a preconceived bias against both sacramentalism and matter as a conveyor of grace, which hearkens back to the heresies of Docetism and even Gnosticism, which looked down upon matter, and regarded spirit as inherently superior to matter (following Greek philosophy, particularly Platonism).

This pervasive anti-eucharistic bias smacks of an analogy to the Jewish and Muslim belief that the Incarnation as an unthinkable (impossible?) task for God to undertake. They view the Incarnation in the same way as the majority of Protestants regard the Eucharist. For them God wouldn't or couldn't or shouldn't become a man. For evangelicals God wouldn't or couldn't or shouldn't become substantially, sacramentally present under the outward forms of bread and wine. I think the dynamic is the same. "Coulda woulda shoulda" theology is not biblical theology. Every Christian exercises faith in things which are very difficult to grasp with the natural mind, because they are revealed to be true by God in the Bible. I have attempted to show why I think Protestants inconsistently require a higher criterion of "proof" where the Holy Eucharist is concerned.

(see the full article for more along the same lines)

Lastly, I would point out that such trepidation in the near-convert is perfectly normal and to be expected. I went through this myself. Here are some of my remarks from my various conversion stories:

. . . seven tense weeks of alternately questioning my sanity and arriving at immensely exciting new plateaus of discovery . . . At this point, it became, in my opinion, an intellectual and moral duty to abandon Protestantism in its Evangelical guise. It was still not easy. Old habits and perceptions die hard, . . . At the end, in most converts' experience, an icy fear sets in, similar to the cold feet of pre-marriage jitters. In an instant, this final obstacle vanished, and a tangible "emotional and theological peace" prevailed.

[ . . .]

--- Radio Interview ---

And then at that point, basically it was just a matter of getting over the cold feet and the jitters.

{Interviewer} Did you have this period of time where you kind of intellectually were persuaded, but somehow the will just wouldn't grasp; wouldn't jump?

Yeah - the common thing with most converts is, "I think I believe it, but now I have to . . ." [laughter] Kinda like getting married: "I have to do this, and it just has to be done."
 

You'll see this motif over and over again in conversion stories. I'm not saying that knowing this resolves all the difficulties, but it does help to know that one's own strong feelings are not unique, but rather, quite common among those who have traveled the same path.

Last edited on Tue Mar 11th, 2008 06:35 pm by Dave Armstrong



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 Posted: Tue Mar 11th, 2008 06:50 pm

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Dave Armstrong wrote: . . . seven tense weeks of alternately questioning my sanity and arriving at immensely exciting new plateaus of discovery . . . At this point, it became, in my opinion, an intellectual and moral duty to abandon Protestantism in its Evangelical guise. It was still not easy. Old habits and perceptions die hard, . . . At the end, in most converts' experience, an icy fear sets in, similar to the cold feet of pre-marriage jitters. In an instant, this final obstacle vanished, and a tangible "emotional and theological peace" prevailed.




Once again Dave, you hit the nail on the head.  I think this may be what I'm wrestling with.  Aside from the usual potential rejections, loss of status, temporary disagreement with my wife, etc, etc... My converting would really disrupt her support system since we are leaders of a small group in our church.  Plus, I lose the chance of a burgeoning teaching opportunity as a substitute for one of our pastors.  In a church that some would consider a mega-church, that is really hard.  But being obedient to Christ's call is more important to me than anything. 

 I know what is right.  Now I just need to unfreeze my feet from the ice and move.  I'm becoming more and more convinced of the reality of the Eucharist and the authority of the church.  Submission to authority is difficult when I see quirky things I don't understand.  But little stuff can easily be overlooked until I understand. 

Thanks for the good teaching Dave.

Rich


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 Posted: Tue Mar 11th, 2008 06:57 pm

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I heard someone say once that the longest distance in the world is between the head and heart.  It's one thing to come to some understanding of something; it's quite another to believe it with all your heart and to live it out.

Sometimes, indeed, we just have to make that leap of faith!  If you choose to join the Church and receive Jesus in Holy Communion, you will not regret it!


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 Posted: Tue Mar 11th, 2008 07:16 pm

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Thanks be to God for His tender mercies, blessings, and grace. He'll guide you through this and give you strength (and faith). I admire the fact that you are willing to undergo so many sacrifices, and that you embrace them for the sake of following God where you believe He is taking you.



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 Posted: Tue Mar 11th, 2008 07:17 pm

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Dave Armstrong wrote: Paul interprets the whole thing quite literally indeed. It is surprising, then, that so many Protestants seem to miss that, and ironic because they favor literal interpretation of the Bible, except when it comes to the Eucharist, as also in John 6.
It's a matter of faith. It takes faith to believe that a miracle is taking place since the bread and wine don't taste like flesh and blood after the prayer of the priest. I find it much easier to believe in transsubstantiation than in the extra-biblical stuff about Mary. But I DO believe that, of all Christians, the Catholics and Eastern Orthodox are, by far, the best at giving her honor. We Protestants do not bless her nearly enough! Only at Christmas doesn't quite cut it.

Hail, Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with thee! Blessed art thou amongst women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus! :bowing:

Mark, I pray that prayer so often! I believe. Help thou my unbelief! :begging:



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 Posted: Tue Mar 11th, 2008 07:29 pm

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. . . the extra-biblical stuff about Mary.

WHAT "extra-biblical stuff"?

JUST teasing . . .  :nyahnyah:  :shrugging:



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 Posted: Tue Mar 11th, 2008 07:42 pm

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Wow, I had only read up until Mark's 11:21 pm post. I hadn't even read Dave's faith post. Kewl!

Hey Rich, there are times (like late at night) when I get those kinds of feelings coming over me. Like "What am I THINKING??"   :drowning:

Probably very normal. ;)



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 Posted: Tue Mar 11th, 2008 07:48 pm

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Dave, your 2:30 pm post? Gooooood stuff, GOOD stuff!! :woohoo:



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 Posted: Tue Mar 11th, 2008 08:30 pm

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Dave Armstrong wrote: . . . the extra-biblical stuff about Mary.

WHAT "extra-biblical stuff"?

JUST teasing . . .  :nyahnyah:  :shrugging:


It's funny, but Marian doctrines were not an obstacle to me except for perhaps the last one which I think is the Co-Redemtrix.  While I don't understand all the details, I think I understand the basics enough for it not to be a problem.  What I do have trouble with is learning how to pray to her.  It doesn't come natural and I don't think of her off the top of my head.  I'm uncomfortable only because it's not a pattern of life for me yet.

Good topic

Rich


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 Posted: Tue Mar 11th, 2008 10:02 pm

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Rich and Kim, everything you mention was also a part of my own journey. Some of my relatives thought I had gone round the bend. More than a few times it crossed my mind that they might be right.

I used to get really aggravated with the "stupidity" of persons on EWTN who stared and stared at the exposed Blessed Sacrament. How could they be so deceived?

I began reflecting on how bizarre some of my beliefs (incarnation, resurrection, the indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit in the believer, heaven, reunion with deceased loved ones) must seem to a non-Christian and decided the belief in the Real Presence was no stranger than those beliefs.

When my catechist led me into the chapel in front of the tabernacle and suggested that if I believed in the Real Presence it would be appropriate to genuflect and silently express my love for Jesus, I had a choice. At that moment I did not "feel" a belief in the Real Presence, but I "willed" a belief. I decided to behave as if it were true. I genuflected and told Jesus that I loved Him. God honored that act of obedience by helping my unbelief. Grace increased; faith grew.

I still get fearful sometimes, especially when I'm sick. Recently, in a depleted state, I found myself wondering if I had made a terrible mistake in telling God that I wanted complete conformity with His will, no matter the cost. I thought, "What have I done, opening myself up to whatever God might do?"

The journey continues. I am working out my salvation. It isn't over until it's over. But, oh, the graces of the Sacraments. Thank you, Jesus!



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rbo4u2
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 Posted: Tue Mar 11th, 2008 10:24 pm

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Intercessor wrote: [size= "What have I done, opening myself up to whatever God might do?"

]


Thanks:waving:for your encouraging words Becky.  When I told the Lord that I'd do whatever it took to become what he wanted, little did I know the sacrifice I'd be making.  But no price is no high to pay, no penalties too hard to endure and nothing too much to do to keep me from following my Lord. 

Now I'm going to duck because I'm not sure what those words will bring.  :drowning: I'm in over my head and just learning to dawg paddle.

Thanks again and pray for me. :praying: The next year or two could get exciting.

Rich


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Didi
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 Posted: Tue Mar 11th, 2008 10:38 pm

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Just remember that the Love of God will never take you where the Grace of God will not sustain you!  We entrust the past to God's Mercy, the present to God's Love and the future to God's Providence!

Heb. 12:1-6, 11

“Therefore, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us also lay aside every weight, and sin which clings so closely, and let us run with perseverance the race that is set before us, looking to Jesus the pioneer and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is seated at the right hand of the throne of God.  Consider him who endured from sinners such hostility against himself, so that you may not grow weary or fainthearted.  In your struggle against sin you have not yet resisted to the point of shedding your blood.  And have you forgotten the exhortation which addresses you as sons? – ‘My son, do not regard lightly the discipline of the Lord, nor lose courage when you are punished by him.  For the Lord disciplines him whom he loves, and chastises every son whom he received.  

“For the moment all discipline seems painful rather than pleasant; later it yields the peaceful fruit of righteousness to those who have been trained by it.”


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rbo4u2
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 Posted: Wed Mar 12th, 2008 02:58 am

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Didi wrote:
Just remember that the Love of God will never take you where the Grace of God will not sustain you!  We entrust the past to God's Mercy, the present to God's Love and the future to God's Providence!

Heb. 12:1-6, 11

“Therefore, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us also lay aside every weight, and sin which clings so closely, and let us run with perseverance the race that is set before us, looking to Jesus the pioneer and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is seated at the right hand of the throne of God.  Consider him who endured from sinners such hostility against himself, so that you may not grow weary or fainthearted.  In your struggle against sin you have not yet resisted to the point of shedding your blood.  And have you forgotten the exhortation which addresses you as sons? – ‘My son, do not regard lightly the discipline of the Lord, nor lose courage when you are punished by him.  For the Lord disciplines him whom he loves, and chastises every son whom he received.  

“For the moment all discipline seems painful rather than pleasant; later it yields the peaceful fruit of righteousness to those who have been trained by it.”



Thank Didi. That's one of my favorite verses.

Rich:hi:


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Kim M.
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 Posted: Wed Mar 12th, 2008 04:15 am

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