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brian
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| Joined: | Fri Sep 29th, 2006 |
| Location: | Chicago South Burbs, Illinois USA |
| Posts: | 803 |
| First Name: | brian | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | methodist, evangelical, anglican, catholic |
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Posted: Sat Dec 15th, 2007 07:10 pm |
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Someone who joined the church with me asked me a tough question that I did not want to be responsible for if I answered incorrectly, but I tried my best.
They had missed the last two masses and the holy day of obligation. All circumstances were unique so I originally did not try to judge but recommended going to confession before next receiving communion to be on the safe side.
Well, today the weather was really bad so he could not get out. But he asked if he should receive when he goes tomorrow. So, I tried to ask questions about why he missed the 3 obligatory masses. I did not give a yes or no answer, but I implied it would be ok to receive. I did this based on whether he missed any masses in a state of willful discobedience with full knowledge, or if it was just weaknesses and some bad deciions that kept him away. Seemed to me like he never was rebelling against God or saying, 'I know that I need to get to mass but I do not care I want to avoid going'
Therfore, I do not think it was mortal sin, but lesser sin or just weakness.
There were a few times where he was traveling and or the weather got really bad so he stayed out late waiting for it to be safer to drive. He also is on some medication and is a bit older and a new Catholic not fully aware of the Catholic mindset.
There was one opportunity where he was on a cruise ship and they did offer mass on the ship and he found out about it and he did not go, but it seems that when he realized it it simply did not click that it was an obligation. He was still used to thinking as a protestant. He never said, I know I am supposed to go but I do not want to. It was more like a simple reflex based on not completely realizing the gravity of the situation.
I told him to still go to confession soon and discuss this all, and the reasons why it kept happening, and the decisions that were leading to this happening, and I left the decision to him as to whether to receive tomorrow, but I am of the mind that it would be ok because it does not seem the conditions for mortal sin applied.
Now I know that it is not the job of this board to dicuss what mortal sin is or isn't in a personal instance, but I wonder if it seems like I did the right thing. And I wonder if there is anything I am not aware of regarding when people miss mass and when it needs to be confessed or when it is seen as venial.
So, I am not asking to judge the person, so much as asking that if a person misses mass a few times in a row, but it did not fit the reqirements or what a mortal sin is, I am assuming that they are still in the state of grace.
But the reason I seemed to imply it was ok to receive was because I told him the decision was based on whether his missing was in willful disobedience understanding the gravity of the situation, and he seemed to think it was not. Does that seem like the right approach? I just worry that if he was not completely honest or I missed something I will be guilty of causing sin against the blessed sacrament. I tried to say only a priest can say for sure, but I thought my advice was solid and it was asked of me.Last edited on Sat Dec 15th, 2007 07:11 pm by brian
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brian
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| Joined: | Fri Sep 29th, 2006 |
| Location: | Chicago South Burbs, Illinois USA |
| Posts: | 803 |
| First Name: | brian | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | methodist, evangelical, anglican, catholic |
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Posted: Sat Dec 15th, 2007 08:14 pm |
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I sent this new answer as an e-mail. Does it seem better? I did already give the impression that his reasons were not deliberate consent or full knowledge. Though at least one day the reason was he stayed up all night playing cards, but he did not see that coming ahead of time and was staying out to avoid driving home in poor weather. Meaning, it just sort of happened but was not necessarily his intention, and maybe had some merit, even though I told him he should try to avoid getting in that sort of situation if he can. plus he really does not have the same full knowledge of these things as a practiced Catholic. Anyway, here is my answer.
So, to sum it up, whether or not to receive communion, I neither told you yes or no but wanted to give you the guidelines for which you can make your decsion. I am asking some people if I gave you the right info. So the decision is yours becasue if there is anything you were overlooking I would not want to be responsible. I told you how it sounded to me, but it is up to you.
So to recap, there are main 3 questions when determining if a sin should keep you from receiving. 1. Was it grave matter? In this case, yes it was.
2. Did I have full knowledge of the sinfullness of my decision while making it? I can not completely answer this for you, other than my impression.
3. Did I deliberately consent to it? Again, I can tell you my impression, but I can not answer definitively. You have to decipher what you can.
So make your decision based on asking youself and answering the last two points. And then go to confesion when next avaialble. If you are sure that you can answer either one of those questions with a solid 'no,' than I would go ahead and receive. If you are somewhat unsure and you think the answer could possibly be 'yes' to both questions then I would not receive just to be on the safe side.
It is possible that if you got to church a little early you could look for a priest and ask if he has a moment to hear your confession. They are required to do so if you ask at a reasonable time, so it would depend on if they were preparing for something at the moment.
Here is another reflection from a website... "In order for a sin to be mortal, it must meet three conditions:
Mortal sin is a sin of grave matter
Mortal sin is committed with full knowledge of the sinner
Mortal sin is committed with deliberate consent of the sinner
This means that mortal sins cannot be done "accidentally." A person who commits a mortal sin is one who knows that their sin is wrong, but still deliberately commits the sin anyway. This means that mortal sins are... truly a rejection of God’s law and love."
What makes a sin mortal is the decision to reject or intentionally rebel against God. So the real question is, 'was I intentionally rebelling against God or was it a matter of outside influences and situations and weaknesses getting the best of me?
Then if you find it was more circumstances, the only other thing to keep in mind is, 'Did I intentionally choose to put myself in those situations with full knowledge of the seriousness of the sin it could lead to?
So, rather than answer for you, I suggest you ponder on those few questions, maybe pray about it for a bit and then do what seems right to you.
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CajunRick
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| Joined: | Fri Sep 29th, 2006 |
| Location: | Houma, Louisiana USA |
| Posts: | 5348 |
| First Name: | Rick (& Kermie) | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Lifetime Catholic, Latin Rite |
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Posted: Sat Dec 15th, 2007 08:49 pm |
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Brian, knowingly and willfully missing mass for any reason is a mortal sin, and one should not receive communion until one can confess and be absolved.
Why?
It is a disobedience to the laws of the Church. A person doesn't have to intend to dishonor God. The Church tells us we must attend mass unless we are prevented from doing so.
Now for a new convert, there are factors that might reduce culpability. He may be aware of his obligation to attend mass on Sundays, but not realize that mass attendance is also required on a Holy Day of Obligation. He may not be sure of the dates of the Holydays. He might have to work or otherwise be unable to attend without serious inconvenience. Those in areas with churches that are far apart might find the drive prohibitively expensive due to the price of gas, or impractical from a time standpoint. For the Immaculate Conception, I had plans on Saturday morning and my parish did not schedule a vigil mass. I called at least a dozen parishes before I found one I could attend, but I have the luxury of having that many parishes nearby.
It also sounds like illness, weather, etc., may have been a problem. A person should not take his life in his hands and endanger others by going to mass with a contagious illness, or if medication causes impaired driving. My mother-in-law has difficulty driving at night, so the only way she can attend mass after dark is if I drive her, which I often do.
The real sin is when we say we have something more important to do, or the Church doesn't have the authority to compel attendance, or we are careless in meeting our obligation. But it is blasphemy to receive Eucharist if one is not in a state of grace, so without fully knowing the circumstances (which actually makes this advice invalid from the start), I would recommend that your friend skip communion until he can be absolved. If there is any doubt regarding the Eucharist, I believe it is better to abstain than to risk committing blasphemy.
Last edited on Sat Dec 15th, 2007 08:52 pm by CajunRick
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Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
Luquette Lane
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brian
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| Joined: | Fri Sep 29th, 2006 |
| Location: | Chicago South Burbs, Illinois USA |
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| First Name: | brian | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | methodist, evangelical, anglican, catholic |
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Posted: Sat Dec 15th, 2007 09:39 pm |
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Thanks Rick,
Where I am unsure, is that for it to be mortal sin the person has to fully understand that their action is sinful while they are committing them. This person is not the most well informed person. Therfore, while not attending mass may or may not have been a grave sin depending on what the circumstances were, I doubt that they fully understood the obligation to attend or were denying what should have been a conviction to plan ahead to go.
While the same rules apply for all, if someone lacks understanding I do not think they are fully culpable. I doubt it is a mortal sin for someone who is mentally ill for instance to miss mass, because they are incapable of fully understanding the implications.
This person is not mentally ill, but it is taking him longer than some to fully appreciate the concept and has certain weaknesses. Say a person simply forgets to set their alarm but did not mean to forget, and they then miss mass. This would not be a mortal sin. Therfore, depending on the person's awareness and weaknesses and abilities to act responsibly consistently, I could see missing mass to not be a mortal sin even if they were capable of going but just did not make the effort to figure it out, or were not fully functioning or aware of the need to do so.
In this case, I can not judge, but I think the person was not fully aware, nor completely consenting to a decision to rebel against God, therfore, I do not see it a problem if they do receive communion, though only God knows.
I am not sure I see the distinction with what you are saying here.
"It is a disobedience to the laws of the Church. A person doesn't have to intend to dishonor God. The Church tells us we must attend mass unless we are prevented from doing so."
To me, a person does have to intentionally dishonor God for sin to be mortal, because the laws of the church are in place for us under God's approval and authority. Therfore, to willlingly disobey the church is intending to dishonor God because it should be clear that when we rebel against what the church asks of us we are rebelling as if against God himself.
BrianLast edited on Sat Dec 15th, 2007 09:47 pm by brian
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CajunRick
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Posted: Sat Dec 15th, 2007 09:56 pm |
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Brian, I think the question here is not whether or not he sinned by missing mass, it is whether you should advise him to receive communion. By telling him it's OK, you're teaching him that it's OK to miss mass. By telling him not to receive, you are instructing him on the importance of attending mass (which, as you say, he may not fully understand), and turning him over to a priest who is much better trained than you or I at giving this type of advice.
It is my belief that when it comes to the Eucharist, when in doubt, don't. That's what I would recommend to your friend. Keep in mind that I am giving third-hand advice on a situation of which I have no knowledge other than what you say, so again I prefer to err on the side of caution. When in doubt, don't.
____________________
Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
Luquette Lane
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brian
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| Joined: | Fri Sep 29th, 2006 |
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| First Name: | brian | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | methodist, evangelical, anglican, catholic |
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Posted: Sat Dec 15th, 2007 10:28 pm |
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I agree with you, and I did send this advice with my approval, and said it may teach him to respect the sacrament more and shows intent to be faithful.
However, I am not sure it was bad advice to explain to him what makes a sin mortal and then tell him to make up his own mind about what he should do. I guess I think that some people just do not fully comprehend things or forget things they should know. I really think that the obstacles or details that presented themself to him were significant enough that they made his decision not to attend more of either a right decision or a decision that was in ignorance or less clear. I think for missing mass to be mortal, you need to be choosing not to go when you are in a situation where it should be of regular ease for you to go, or difficult within reason. This will differ from person to person, and this person is a bit odd, therefore, I think his logic sometimes makes sense to him, even if it would be gravely wrong for me.
Anyway, I did explain that he needs to learn to get more into a Catholic mindset and I did tell him that the offense was grave. I did tell him that there is an obligation to go when able to do so. I am telling hm to go to confession and deal with the problems that cause this nd to seek to be better prepared in the future. So I do not think I gave him the impression that it is ok to miss mass. The very fact that such a discussion is taking place seems to reiterate the fact that if you go to mass lke you should then there is no need for a discussion like this.
I agree with you about the doubt thing, except maybe in cases where people doubt scrupulously over things that are not gravely sinful. I think some people may doubt and should receive if their doubt is asign of being unhealthy.
Anyway, I am glad you gave me the advice you did. I still think that it will be no sin if he does receive, but because I can not be sure, I have modified my stance and advised that he abstain. I only hope now that if he does not listen, that I do not need to worry that I failed in any way.
The only reasons I do not like this advice, is that I think it benefits the church when as many people as possible partake each wek. I think it strengthens it. Therfroe, I wonder if it is potentially harmful to tell somene to abstain when they can receive. But like you, I think the greater danger is in being wrong and receiving anyway, and I agree that it will set a good example. But I still do not think that I was telling him it is ok to miss mass necessarily. I was trying to get him to think about it as seriously as possible and deal with the problem.
Brian
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