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broken_nails
Member
| Joined: | Mon Aug 13th, 2007 |
| Location: | Texas USA |
| Posts: | 12 |
| First Name: | Barbara | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | non-religious childhood, atheist young adult, agnostic for first 2 kids, ... |
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Posted: Mon Dec 3rd, 2007 12:50 am |
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About a year ago, our bishop sent each parish in the diocese a powerpoint slideshow to be viewed during Mass to promote "Capital Campaign". The screen was placed on the altar for viewing by the congregation during the homily (then removed).
Now, our director of religious education, has started holding high school youth meetings in the Church. We have run out of room in the education center, but the parish center is still available until they begin renovations a few months from now. These are lively meetings. They definitely pray and learn more about God, but teens will be teens, and they do lots of fun and silly things. They also frequently use a screen on the altar to view slideshows or movies. It looks like a Protestant church in there!
I'm not against raising money for the Church or teens drawing closer to Christ through fun and using modern technology. My objection is using our Church as a multi-purpose room. And I am offended that our altar can be used to show movies and slideshows.
I went to Confession and told Father my objections, and that my sin was that I was harboring resentment towards those who were doing this. He said that this was all part of progress. In just the same way that we have guitars at some Masses, this is no different. He said even the Pope uses this technology on his altar. Basically, he said I should lighten up. When confessing my other sins, he said the same thing he always does, "Don't worry - this is human nature. It's natural." (I know that's a different subject, but it gives you the context of where he's coming from).
Am I off my rocker? Is our area unique or is this the way of the American Church - and does the Pope really approve of this "progress"? As a convert, I see the altar as the Holy of Holies visible.
Finally, are my concerns damaging to the Church - I mean, am I hurting the Church by not wanting to go along with this progress - yet not knowing what else to do? Sometimes I just want to leave this parish and join another one that is very traditional - but then our family would be leaving our parish family. But what's more important - being part of a parish family or worshipping in reverence and awe with others who feel the same way?
God Bless,
Barbara
____________________
"We are an Easter people and Alleluia is our song!" St. Augustine
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Br_Carlo
Member
| Joined: | Mon Oct 9th, 2006 |
| Location: | Tyler, Texas USA |
| Posts: | 150 |
| First Name: | Br_Carlo (Vince Brach) | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Presbyterian, Episcopalian, CATHOLIC |
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Posted: Mon Dec 3rd, 2007 08:30 am |
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| God's peace. If you see the altar being used as a platform for anything secular and not directly involved in the Mass, and your priest blows this off as a light matter, it's time to seek an appointment with the bishop. Christ's Body and Blood lie there, sacrificed for us. To profane the altar (literally, to use this holy place for common things) is sacrilege. Blessings, ~Br_Carlo~ Last edited on Mon Dec 3rd, 2007 08:32 am by Br_Carlo
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BodRod
Member
| Joined: | Mon Oct 2nd, 2006 |
| Location: | Apple Valley, California USA |
| Posts: | 824 |
| First Name: | Cliff | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Raised an SDA, then Generic Christian, finally at home with ... |
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Posted: Mon Dec 3rd, 2007 10:42 am |
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| I'm confused! In my church, the congregation is on one level, the servers stand on a higher level to receive and the priest works one more level up on which there is a large table. I thought the altar was the large table on the highest platform. Is that not true? Does the term altar include the entire area up front and not just the large table?
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Gratias agamus Domino Deo nostro.
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Annie
Banned
| Joined: | Wed Feb 14th, 2007 |
| Location: | Columbus, Ohio USA |
| Posts: | 731 |
| First Name: | Annie | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | nothing, Quaker, Mennonite, Presbyterian, Methodist, Anglican, Catholic |
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Posted: Mon Dec 3rd, 2007 11:43 am |
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The altar is the thing that looks like an altar, the raised platform on which it stands is the sanctuary.
I know of one parish here where the priest puts the transmitter for his microphone on the altar. this is seen as improper too. and no, you are not off your rocker. Nothing belongs on the altar besides the altar linens, chalices, ciboria, the Sacramentary and the Book of Gospels. Defintely not multimedia devices.
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Annie
Ora et labora
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Annie
Banned
| Joined: | Wed Feb 14th, 2007 |
| Location: | Columbus, Ohio USA |
| Posts: | 731 |
| First Name: | Annie | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | nothing, Quaker, Mennonite, Presbyterian, Methodist, Anglican, Catholic |
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Posted: Mon Dec 3rd, 2007 11:52 am |
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broken_nails wrote: But what's more important - being part of a parish family or worshipping in reverence and awe with others who feel the same way?
Worshipping in reverence is the most important thing. Going to church to socialize, to be "part of a parish family" is the Protestant way. If you worship in reverence with others of like mind there is your parish family. You can't serve two things at once.
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Annie
Ora et labora
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BodRod
Member
| Joined: | Mon Oct 2nd, 2006 |
| Location: | Apple Valley, California USA |
| Posts: | 824 |
| First Name: | Cliff | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Raised an SDA, then Generic Christian, finally at home with ... |
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Posted: Mon Dec 3rd, 2007 12:08 pm |
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Annie,
We have a high tech sound system. The "rock and rollers" from youth mass insisted on it! The priests (and deacon when we have one visiting) wear a device, which is held over the ear with the sound receiver on a stiff tube that goes out in front of the mouth. That makes it hands free and wireless.
Our altar includes a special crucifix on it that is required to be on the altar whenever any member of the order, to which our priests belong, is celebrating Mass.
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Gratias agamus Domino Deo nostro.
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sewnsew
Member
| Joined: | Mon Oct 9th, 2006 |
| Location: | Arizona USA |
| Posts: | 885 |
| First Name: | Kim | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | cradle Anglican, Episcopal /Catholic-04/07/07 |
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Posted: Mon Dec 3rd, 2007 12:12 pm |
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| I know that when the School has an open house we meet in the Chapel. They are very careful to mention that the Blessed Sacrement of Jesus has been removed
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broken_nails
Member
| Joined: | Mon Aug 13th, 2007 |
| Location: | Texas USA |
| Posts: | 12 |
| First Name: | Barbara | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | non-religious childhood, atheist young adult, agnostic for first 2 kids, ... |
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Posted: Mon Dec 3rd, 2007 01:46 pm |
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Dear Brother Carlo,
Perhaps the projector screen was directly in front of the altar, but blocking the view of the altar and tabernacle, I'm not really sure, but will check it out next time. Would that change things? Because the bishop definitely ok'd the slideshow to be presented during Mass - it was part of the homily to promote the capital campaign. I don't have a problem with promoting the campaign during the homily, because they worked it into stewardship - its the multi-media presentation that seems un-holy.
I hesitate contacting this bishop, because he has totally blown me (and others) off when I wrote to him several times about our Catholic school (Harry Potter and books on wizardry, occult, etc. are being sold through Scholastic bookfairs and are in the library, and other similar concerns I had. Also, the priest in charge of the school knowingly gave Communion to non-Catholics, and allowed a non-married couple to be extroidenary Eucharistic ministers - silence from this bishop, who happens to be quite prominent in the College of Bishops. Very Sad!) Also I wrote to him because a local o.b. was thrown out (drummed up charges) of our Catholic hospital after he complained the staff was sending patients to the local abortion mill, performing surgical permanent birth control and covering up botched abortions (when patients were rushed to ER from the abortion clinic). Lawsuits later, the doctor is back on staff. But the bishop supported the hospital. He never answers my letters or e-mails.
Any advice you can give me would be appreciated, because just writing the above is so disturbing. It is a scandal - and this doesn't help the situation with my non-practicing Catholic husband. He sees this stuff, and is convinced the Church is a scam - although he believes my spiritual journey is genuine, but that my faith is misplaced. Yet another topic - sorry!
In Christ, through Mary-
Barbara
____________________
"We are an Easter people and Alleluia is our song!" St. Augustine
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Annie
Banned
| Joined: | Wed Feb 14th, 2007 |
| Location: | Columbus, Ohio USA |
| Posts: | 731 |
| First Name: | Annie | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | nothing, Quaker, Mennonite, Presbyterian, Methodist, Anglican, Catholic |
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Posted: Mon Dec 3rd, 2007 01:51 pm |
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broken_nails wrote: Because the bishop definitely ok'd the slideshow to be presented during Mass - it was part of the homily to promote the capital campaign. I don't have a problem with promoting the campaign during the homily, because they worked it into stewardship - its the multi-media presentation that seems un-holy.
I read somewhere that taped presentations on stewardship are NOT okay during Mass, especially in place of the homily, which must be on the Gospel lesson or other Mass reading. I can't find the reference though. We had a similar situation in this diocese.
The other concerns that you have I believe are serious enough to cause you to change parishes if possible. It sounds like bedlam and nobody taking responsibility.:X
Don't bother with the Bishop about this, find another parish if possible. If it isn't possible, pester the Bishop.
____________________
Annie
Ora et labora
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Dave Armstrong
Network Apologist
| Joined: | Fri Nov 2nd, 2007 |
| Location: | Melvindale, Michigan USA |
| Posts: | 1845 |
| First Name: | Dave | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Evangelical (1977): Diverse Protestant Influences / Catholic in 1990 |
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Posted: Mon Dec 3rd, 2007 05:19 pm |
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Sounds like a clear abuse to me. But I couldn't give you, offhand, some canon law that would "officially" speak to it. Moderators Rick or David probably would know something along those lines.
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I'm happy to offer whatever theological & personal assistance I can. My blog, Biblical Evidence for Catholicism, contains 2000+ papers & web pages (absolutely free) & 16 apologetic books (for sale):
http://www.biblicalcatholic.com/
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CajunRick
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| Joined: | Fri Sep 29th, 2006 |
| Location: | Houma, Louisiana USA |
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Posted: Mon Dec 3rd, 2007 09:18 pm |
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The only restriction I can find regarding the use of an altar outside of the liturgical celebration is this one from the Code of Canon Law:
Can. 1239 §1. An altar, whether fixed or movable, must be reserved for divine worship alone, to the absolute exclusion of any profane use.
I could not find an official definition of the term "profane use".
I am not a canon lawyer and my interpretation of this passage is by no means definitive. Under the law, it seems to me that the altar is reserved for "worship". What is "worship"? Is the religious education program part of "worship"? Is a discussion of stewardship part of "worship"? How about a youth retreat? A parish mission?
It is up to the bishop to decide, under guidelines (if any) issued by the national conference of bishops. If the bishop has not provided guidance, then it is left to the pastor. The judicial vicar of the diocese is the official canon lawyer and advises the bishop on matters involving Canon Law, with the Canon Law Society of America available as a reference.
The rules used to be much more restrictive. When a church contained only a main altar which housed the Tabernacle containing the Blessed Sacrament, it could not be used for any other purpose, but the reason was the presence of the Eucharist, not the altar itself. If a church is used for any purpose other than worship, all due respect should be given to the Blessed Sacrament or it should be removed and the sanctuary candle extinguished.
I think (my opinion) any judgment should be based on whether other facilities are available. A stewardship program is definitely an acceptable topic for a homily even if it is a multimedia presentation. (My bishop usually uses audio only when he addresses the parishes.) Is there another effective way to present it to the entire congregation? In my parish we have set up a projection TV directly in front of the altar (although we did it after mass) for a mission presentation. Because of the design of the church, the altar is the only location that everyone can see. We have also had presentations in our parish hall, and had six people show up. We have held meetings in our church, such as a parents' meeting while their kids were at Religious Ed classes, but again, we have never used the altar. In our parish, the Tabernacle sits in a main altar directly behind the altar of sacrifice, so it's a different situation than in a more modern church with a single altar and a Tabernacle set apart in an adoration chapel.
Sometimes compromises have to be made based on the facilities available (especially in poorer parishes), and if that means using the church as a meeting hall when the only other choice is not to hold any functions other than mass, and if the bishop and pastor approve, then I personally have no problem with it. However, the altar should absolutely be reserved only for those implements necessary during the Liturgy of the Eucharist, and (my opinion again) use of the altar should be avoided whenever possible otherwise. Decorations, such as flowers, should never be placed on the altar during mass.
We can't always have the ideal, even though we strive for it. In inner-city parishes, land costs are prohibitively expensive, and the economic situation of the neighborhood is often greatly reduced from what it was fifty years ago. Newer suburban parishes often have a large debt, and can't afford to build additional facilities until their debt is paid down. Rural parishes often have a large percentage of older, retired parishioners on fixed incomes, sometimes with extra facilities they can't really use, often in disrepair. One of the pastor's primary responsibilities is to manage the financial resources of the parish as best he can. It is often a difficult, thankless task, and it is definitely not the reason he went to the seminary in the first place. Most pastors hate the fiscal responsibilities and dread the annual audit they must endure. It strikes terror in their hearts almost as much as they fear being charged with abuse for giving a kid a hug.
But if you believe the altar is being used for frivolous purposes ("profane uses") you should definitely take your concerns to the pastor, and higher if necessary.
____________________
Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
Luquette Lane
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broken_nails
Member
| Joined: | Mon Aug 13th, 2007 |
| Location: | Texas USA |
| Posts: | 12 |
| First Name: | Barbara | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | non-religious childhood, atheist young adult, agnostic for first 2 kids, ... |
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Posted: Mon Dec 3rd, 2007 11:09 pm |
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Thanks for your reply, Rick. Our Church sounds alot like yours, architecturally speaking. Although the youth group could definitely have met in the parish hall from August till whenever renovations there begin (slated for March). I will take a peak Wednesday night to see if the Blessed Sacrament is removed and the Sanctuary light extinguished. That would certainly allay my concerns alot!
God Bless you!
Barbara
____________________
"We are an Easter people and Alleluia is our song!" St. Augustine
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Annie
Banned
| Joined: | Wed Feb 14th, 2007 |
| Location: | Columbus, Ohio USA |
| Posts: | 731 |
| First Name: | Annie | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | nothing, Quaker, Mennonite, Presbyterian, Methodist, Anglican, Catholic |
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Posted: Tue Dec 4th, 2007 10:08 am |
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| "Profane use" means anything not related to worship. And worship in our case means either celebrating Mass or Eucharistic Adoration or Benediction. Capital campaigns are profane by definition as they have to do with worldly things.
____________________
Annie
Ora et labora
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David W. Emery
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Posted: Tue Dec 4th, 2007 10:12 am |
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For what it’s worth, Annie, I think your definition is spot on.
David
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Annie
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Posted: Tue Dec 4th, 2007 10:40 am |
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| This is merely the dictionary definition of profane, anything that is not sacred is profane.
____________________
Annie
Ora et labora
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CajunRick
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Posted: Tue Dec 4th, 2007 01:11 pm |
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Annie wrote: This is merely the dictionary definition of profane, anything that is not sacred is profane.
And I agree. The use of the altar is certainly inappropriate in my opinion, but under the circumstances it may have been considered necessary. The judgment belongs to the pastor and bishop, not to us. It is their responsibility to safeguard the sanctity of holy places.
As I indicated, concerns should be brought first to the pastor and then to the bishop if necessary. It is certainly our right to be concerned.
____________________
Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
Luquette Lane
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BodRod
Member
| Joined: | Mon Oct 2nd, 2006 |
| Location: | Apple Valley, California USA |
| Posts: | 824 |
| First Name: | Cliff | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Raised an SDA, then Generic Christian, finally at home with ... |
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Posted: Tue Dec 4th, 2007 01:35 pm |
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| I have a problem with putting items on the altar or taking them off. Sometimes, our visiting priests don't take what I have in my hand from the Tabernacle or the Chalice and just nod toward the altar. I would rather they take and offer the items from the altar. However, I am there to help and not to complain but it still bugs me.
____________________
Gratias agamus Domino Deo nostro.
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Dave Armstrong
Network Apologist
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Posted: Tue Dec 4th, 2007 02:10 pm |
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And worship in our case means either celebrating Mass or Eucharistic Adoration or Benediction.
That's exactly what I was gonna say . . . so it would seem to me that a straightforward interpretation of the code of canon law would preclude activities such as that described in this thread.
____________________
I'm happy to offer whatever theological & personal assistance I can. My blog, Biblical Evidence for Catholicism, contains 2000+ papers & web pages (absolutely free) & 16 apologetic books (for sale):
http://www.biblicalcatholic.com/
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CajunRick
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Posted: Tue Dec 4th, 2007 02:30 pm |
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BodRod wrote: I have a problem with putting items on the altar or taking them off. Sometimes, our visiting priests don't take what I have in my hand from the Tabernacle or the Chalice and just nod toward the altar. I would rather they take and offer the items from the altar. However, I am there to help and not to complain but it still bugs me.
If the item is the Eucharist itself, a priest or deacon is to hand it to you. Otherwise, it is permitted for you to place items on the altar or remove them as appropriate. For example, if the priest hands you a cup containing the Precious Blood, you may take a purificator to wipe the rim, and you may place the empty cup on the altar or replace the ciborium containing the Blessed Sacrament onto the altar or into the Tabernacle after communion. However, you should never take the Eucharist yourself for your own consumption, nor the vessel containing the Eucharist for distribution. It should be handed to you by a priest or deacon.
____________________
Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
Luquette Lane
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