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kololam77
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| Joined: | Tue Aug 14th, 2007 |
| Location: | Berlin, Germany |
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| First Name: | Matthew | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | catholic, nothing, charismatic evangelical, conservative lutheran, conservative evangelical - moving ... |
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Posted: Thu Aug 16th, 2007 08:42 am |
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I know a person who refuses to believe and submit to the teaching of the Catholic Church re: eucharistic communion being only for Catholics in good spiritual standing. This person purposely attends Catholic services, examines himself during the service, and then proceeds to the front of the church to receive the body and blood of Jesus Christ. He is thrilled after he does this and in his mind and heart this is a form of his own personal Protestant reformation.
What do you all think?
Last edited on Thu Aug 16th, 2007 08:42 am by kololam77
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There is no other name under heaven by which men can be saved other than the name of Jesus Christ.
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CajunRick
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| Joined: | Fri Sep 29th, 2006 |
| Location: | Houma, Louisiana USA |
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| First Name: | Rick (& Kermie) | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Lifetime Catholic, Latin Rite |
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Posted: Thu Aug 16th, 2007 08:50 am |
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kololam77 wrote: I know a person who refuses to believe and submit to the teaching of the Catholic Church re: eucharistic communion being only for Catholics in good spiritual standing. This person purposely attends Catholic services, examines himself during the service, and then proceeds to the front of the church to receive the body and blood of Jesus Christ. He is thrilled after he does this and in his mind and heart this is a form of his own personal Protestant reformation.
What do you all think?
I think he is endangering his immortal soul by failing to properly discern the Body and Blood of Christ. Pray for him!
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Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
Luquette Lane
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David W. Emery
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| Location: | Brownsville, Texas USA |
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| First Name: | David | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Catholic |
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Posted: Thu Aug 16th, 2007 10:21 am |
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I don’t know what is in this person’s heart, Matthew, so I will speak more generally of my experience of this behavior among anti-Catholics.
From the anti-Catholic viewpoint, receiving Catholic communion is simply an act of defiance. The person is doing it to proclaim to the Catholic Church and to the world at large (as if anyone were actually watching) that he, as a non-Catholic, is every bit as good a Christian as the Catholics. The Catholic Church can’t tell him what to do! How dare they deny him communion!
There is abundant evidence of self-importance as well as a loathing of the very communion he receives — a commodity, if you will, rather than a blessing. “Stealing” communion in this fashion is a kind of spiritual rape, a power grab. Eventually he will reap what he has sowed.
David
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kololam77
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| Joined: | Tue Aug 14th, 2007 |
| Location: | Berlin, Germany |
| Posts: | 67 |
| First Name: | Matthew | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | catholic, nothing, charismatic evangelical, conservative lutheran, conservative evangelical - moving ... |
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Posted: Thu Aug 16th, 2007 10:55 am |
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David W. Emery wrote: I don’t know what is in this person’s heart, Matthew, so I will speak more generally of my experience of this behavior among anti-Catholics.
From the anti-Catholic viewpoint, receiving Catholic communion is simply an act of defiance. The person is doing it to proclaim to the Catholic Church and to the world at large (as if anyone were actually watching) that he, as a non-Catholic, is every bit as good a Christian as the Catholics. The Catholic Church can’t tell him what to do! How dare they deny him communion!
There is abundant evidence of self-importance as well as a loathing of the very communion he receives — a commodity, if you will, rather than a blessing. “Stealing” communion in this fashion is a kind of spiritual rape, a power grab. Eventually he will reap what he has sowed.
David Thanks David. I think this is one of the major differences between the Protestant and Catholic understanding of the Lord´s Supper as illustrated in the New Testament. Protestants believe that communion is for all believers in Jesus Christ who have examined their hearts and conscience and have asked forgiveness for their sins. This is what Paul teaches in Corinthians. Protestants do no believe that only Roman Catholics can receive communion that is offered in the Roman Catholic Church - since Protestants see the RCC as yet another visible local church within the realm of God´s even greater invisible church. Once again - it is a matter of ecclesiatical understanding and the basis of this understanding - Protestants use the Bible alone and Catholics use the three legged stool - Bible, Tradition, and the Teaching Mag. I appreciate your response very much.
Last edited on Thu Aug 16th, 2007 10:56 am by kololam77
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There is no other name under heaven by which men can be saved other than the name of Jesus Christ.
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brian
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| Joined: | Fri Sep 29th, 2006 |
| Location: | Chicago South Burbs, Illinois USA |
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| First Name: | brian | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | methodist, evangelical, anglican, catholic |
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Posted: Thu Aug 16th, 2007 03:40 pm |
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kololam77 wrote: Protestants believe that communion is for all believers in Jesus Christ who have examined their hearts and conscience and have asked forgiveness for their sins. This is what Paul teaches in Corinthians. Protestants do no believe that only Roman Catholics can receive communion that is offered in the Roman Catholic Church - since Protestants see the RCC as yet another visible local church within the realm of God´s even greater invisible church. Once again - it is a matter of ecclesiatical understanding and the basis of this understanding - Protestants use the Bible alone and Catholics use the three legged stool - Bible, Tradition, and the Teaching Mag. I appreciate your response very much.
Our belief is not exactly a new one though. We have always exclusively believed this privilege was only to be shared by those in union with us and who believe what we believe. These beliefs we think of course come from the Lord and the apostle's themselves, from the last supper narratives, John chapter 6 and 1 Corinthians 10 and 11. It can not both be the Lord's body and not the Lord's body. Somebody is practicing it correctly and somebody is not..unless nobody is. The fact is that we have practiced it the same way throughout history whereas every other denomination sort of has invented there ideas about communion separate from Christian tradition. These quotes, while not being the Bible itself, certainly show the mind of the early church regarding this topic, and the requirements of who could celebrate the Lord's supper. Keep in mind this was written a generation or two within the apostles dying, so if they are wrong, that is how quickly truth was lost, which I find difficult to believe that he very people who spread the faith who were living so close to the times of the apostles could have simply made up their own teachings.
"You must all follow the bishop as Jesus Christ follows the Father, and the presbytery as you would the Apostles. Reverence the deacons as you would the command of God. Let no one do anything of concern to the Church without the bishop. Let that be considered a valid Eucharist which is celebrated by the bishop, or by one whom he appoints. Wherever the bishop appears, let the people be there; just as wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church. Nor is it permitted without the bishop either to baptize or to celebrate the agape." (St. Ignatius' letter to the Smyrnaeans 8,1 ~ 110 AD)
"We call this food Eucharist; and no one else is permitted to partake of it, except one who believes our teaching to be true and who has beenwashed in the washing which is for the remission of sins and for regeneration [Baptism], and is thereby living as Christ has enjoined. For not as common bread nor common drink do we receive these; but since Jesus Christ our Savior was made incarnate by the word of God and had both flesh and blood for our salvation, so too, as we have been taught, the food which has been made into the Eucharist by the Eucharistic prayer set down by Him, and by the change of which our blood and flesh is nourished, is both the flesh and the blood of that incarnated Jesus."
(St. Justin's first apology 1 66 ~151 AD)
Last edited on Thu Aug 16th, 2007 03:43 pm by brian
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David W. Emery
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Posted: Fri Aug 17th, 2007 01:51 am |
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kololam77 wrote:Thanks David.
And thank you, Matthew. What you say about sincere Protestants and where they are “coming from” regarding Eucharistic theology and ecclesiology is accurately expressed. I was speaking of the anti-Catholic extremist, of course, and this does not represent all Protestants. Therefore I was reluctant to lump your acquaintance in with what I was describing. (It is well for you to know that I wasn’t always Catholic, either. I was raised Methodist. So I do understand these things.)
Just a word on the following: “Protestants believe that communion is for all believers in Jesus Christ who have examined their hearts and conscience and have asked forgiveness for their sins. This is what Paul teaches in Corinthians.”
Granted. However, this assumes that “all believers” are members of the one Church (as he understood it and as existed in his day), and that condition does not obtain in today’s world. The Catholic conclusion, therefore, is that Protestants are being anachronistic in their interpretation. Even in ancient times, heretics were not allowed to participate in the Divine Mysteries nor receive communion alongside the faithful. The passages of the Fathers of the Church cited by Brian in this thread lend their support to this.
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