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brian
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Posted: Tue Jun 5th, 2007 04:35 pm |
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Forgive me if I have asked this before, but I am still a little confused. Is the Eucharist we partake of Christ's glorified body and yet still the sacrifice of calvary made present? Because I know from other discussions the Eucharist is Christ's glorified body, but from other discussions I know that the mass is making Calvary present (though in an unbloody manner). But if we are mystically making Calvary present, and Calvary is the death of the Lord and the sacrificve of the cross, then why is it we are also eating his risen glorified Body since that is not what body he had at Calvary? Or was it? But I was in line for communion staring at a crucifix thinkning that somehow this is what I was partaking of, but then I was confused because it is his glorified and not crucified body I am partaking of. But if the mass makes Calvary present how is it the risen body that appears from the mass and not the crucified body? is it both? We eat the flesh of the true passover lamb that was slain, but in what state do we eat Him, the sacrificed dead flesh, or the living resurrected flesh. I think it is the latter, but that somehow because he was slain and we make that present but He is now alive that it is both somehow? I don't know...
Brian
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Ali
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Posted: Tue Jun 5th, 2007 04:50 pm |
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OMGoodness, Brian! You have such deep questions, and are obvioiusly a thinker. I, on the other hand am not, and usually get lost in your posts  Thankfully, for you, you are not asking me 
Ali
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David W. Emery
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Posted: Tue Jun 5th, 2007 05:19 pm |
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Yes, we have discussed this before. No matter. It can get confusing when we look at these bits and pieces in isolation.
First, the Eucharist is the risen, glorified and living body and blood of our Lord. Second, the Mass is a re-presentation of our Lord’s one sacrifice on our behalf, which historically was made at Calvary, but now is made from eternity in a sacramental manner.
How do we reconcile these statements? Jesus Christ is God incarnate. As the second Person of the blessed Trinity, he is eternal. Therefore time and temporal events are not relevant to his sacrifice. The sacrifice of Calvary took place historically, but it is renewed sacramentally in our presence in an unbloody manner. Christ’s body and blood are glorified because this is how he presents himself in the sacrament; it is only the historical event at Calvary that required suffering and death.
So it is the same sacrifice, but it is offered continually from eternity, not merely in a historical context. The body that died on the cross is the same body that is now glorified. He died, and behold, he lives (cf. Revelation 1:18).
David
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Darlene
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Posted: Thu Jun 7th, 2007 03:45 pm |
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David W. Emery wrote:
The body that died on the cross is the same body that is now glorified. He died, and behold, he lives (cf. Revelation 1:18).
David
David, Could you please explain this further? I don't see how Christ's body on the cross can be the same glorified body of Christ. For one thing, Christ's body on the cross had not yet conquered death. Christ still needed to descend into the depths of the earth. He still needed to be raised by God from the dead. Help me out here. Thanks.
Darlene
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The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all. II Corinthians 13:14
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japhy
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Posted: Thu Jun 7th, 2007 04:14 pm |
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Darlene wrote: David W. Emery wrote: The body that died on the cross is the same body that is now glorified. He died, and behold, he lives (cf. Revelation 1:18).
I don't see how Christ's body on the cross can be the same glorified body of Christ. For one thing, Christ's body on the cross had not yet conquered death. Christ still needed to descend into the depths of the earth. He still needed to be raised by God from the dead.
He said "the body that died on the cross is the same body that is now glorified". What this means is that Jesus's glorified body is not a different body, but the same flesh. Our resurrection bodies, believe it or not, are our very bodies, glorified. They aren't "new" bodies, but they're not "old" either. They're just "ours".
Another way to look at it is this: when Christ presented himself to the Apostles after his resurrection, he showed them the nail-prints and spear wound. That's because the body he had was the same as the body which suffered and died. It wasn't a "new" body with the characteristics of the old one "transferred" or "copied" to it, it was the self-same body. The reason this is harder for us to understand is that our bodies will have decayed by the time they are glorified and raised to immortality. However, it is this very flesh which shall see God; I do not doubt God can reconstitute this very same body from its parts long after it has ceased to be a whole.
Tertullian put it very well in his work De resurrectione carnis: "For the very same body which fell in death, and which lay in the sepulchre, did also rise again; (and it was) not so much Christ in the flesh, as the flesh in Christ."Last edited on Thu Jun 7th, 2007 04:18 pm by japhy
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Tina in Ashburn
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Posted: Thu Jun 7th, 2007 04:45 pm |
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David, can I add to the confusion by mentioning that time is a dimension that doesn't exist in Heaven? Can you help me verbalize this?
This is how Christ can be sacrificed and risen at the same time.
Getting past the concept of time is a tough one, since our understanding of time is all we know.
One example is the Octave of a Feast. We have Christmas Day and then there is the week of the Octave of Christmas. For the entire Octave, it is still Christmas Day. Time doesn't exist in Heaven so Christmas just IS at that point. When Father explained this to our theology class, he said that even this example was hard to explain, because us humans have to use time elements to describe it!
I may be going too far by introducing this concept because it is difficult to explain. However it helps to understand that events are concurrent in Heaven, past, present and future. This concept helped me to understand how I could assist in general salvation by consoling Jesus in His Agony. In my human understanding, the Agony is a past event, but in the mind of God, this event still exists and we can contribute by participating in the agony of Jesus, as if we were standing there with Mary.
Einstein, from a purely scientific process, grasped the concept that Time could be overcome somehow.
I joke with my friends that practicing Catholics look younger than everybody else because we are Time Travelers.  When we participate at Mass, the door of Heaven opens and we step outside of Time. I just made this up...I haven't seen this written anywhere yet!!
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Tina
Arlington Diocese
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David W. Emery
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Posted: Thu Jun 7th, 2007 09:46 pm |
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Japhy, Tina: The two of you have done so well in explaining what I meant that it would be superfluous to add to it.
And Tina, you don’t need any help in verbalization. I’ve been something of a wordsmith most of my life, but over the past several months I have encountered difficulties that leave me often unable to say anything intelligible.
David
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Darlene
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Posted: Sat Jun 9th, 2007 03:29 pm |
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japhy wrote: Darlene wrote: David W. Emery wrote: The body that died on the cross is the same body that is now glorified. He died, and behold, he lives (cf. Revelation 1:18).
I don't see how Christ's body on the cross can be the same glorified body of Christ. For one thing, Christ's body on the cross had not yet conquered death. Christ still needed to descend into the depths of the earth. He still needed to be raised by God from the dead.
He said "the body that died on the cross is the same body that is now glorified". What this means is that Jesus's glorified body is not a different body, but the same flesh. So are you saying that the same flesh Christ had while here on earth is exactly the same as it is in Heaven? He layed aside the glory He had with the Father to live in a fleshly body,which was subject to pain and had to eat to live, etc. Please explain what you mean by this. Our resurrection bodies, believe it or not, are our very bodies, glorified. They aren't "new" bodies, but they're not "old" either. They're just "ours". But our new bodies will most definitely be different from these bodies we have now which are subject to decay. In our new bodies, we will be able to defy the laws of nature, such as walking through walls as Christ demonstrated when he appeared to the disciples after His resurrection.
Another way to look at it is this: when Christ presented himself to the Apostles after his resurrection, he showed them the nail-prints and spear wound. That's because the body he had was the same as the body which suffered and died. It wasn't a "new" body with the characteristics of the old one "transferred" or "copied" to it, it was the self-same body. And yet somehow, wasn't it different because He had risen. Otherwise, why at one point did Christ caution Mary not to touch Him because He had not risen? The reason this is harder for us to understand is that our bodies will have decayed by the time they are glorified and raised to immortality. However, it is this very flesh (I cannot agree, because "flesh and blood cannot enter the kingdom of God - our flesh must be changed. I Cor. 15) Also, Paul says that "just as we have borne the image of the man of dust, so shal we bear the image of the man of heaven. The man of dust will be changed into the man of heaven, the latter being different than the former.which shall see God; I do not doubt God can reconstitute this very same body from its parts long after it has ceased to be a whole.Neither do I, but the way I understand from scripture is that God will take all the atoms that made us who we were but then transform our bodies to be glorified bodies, much different than the bodies we have now, since "flesh and blood cannot enter the kingdom of God. (I Cor. 15:50)
Tertullian put it very well in his work De resurrectione carnis: "For the very same body which fell in death, and which lay in the sepulchre, did also rise again; (and it was) not so much Christ in the flesh, as the flesh in Christ."
Japhy, is not the manner in which our bodies will be resurrected after the same manner of Christ's resurrection? I quote from I. Cor. 15:51-53:"Lo! I tell you a mystery, we shall not all sleep but we shall be changed , in a moment, in a twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet shall sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed. For this perishable nature must put on the imperishable, and this mortal nature must put on immortality."
So I still understand that Christ's body in heaven to be far more glorious than the one which he had here on earth, which he laid aside His glory in heaven to wear for just a little while.
Darlene
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The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all. II Corinthians 13:14
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Darlene
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Posted: Sat Jun 9th, 2007 03:44 pm |
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Tina in Ashburn wrote: David, can I add to the confusion by mentioning that time is a dimension that doesn't exist in Heaven? Can you help me verbalize this?
This is how Christ can be sacrificed and risen at the same time.
If this is the case, then everything is happening all at once all the time. God is still creating the universe, Moses is still leading his people across the Red Sea, Joseph is still in Egypt providing food for the famine, the Apostles are preaching the gospel to the first church and yet they are in Heaven as well. This sounds like chaos to me. God expects us to understand things within the constaints of time else He would not have created time.
Getting past the concept of time is a tough one, since our understanding of time is all we know.
One example is the Octave of a Feast. We have Christmas Day and then there is the week of the Octave of Christmas. For the entire Octave, it is still Christmas Day. Time doesn't exist in Heaven so Christmas just IS at that point. Again, I don't think that Christ is a babe in Bethlehem any longer. He is the crucified and risen Lord. When Father explained this to our theology class, he said that even this example was hard to explain, because us humans have to use time elements to describe it!Yet God created us to communicate through these very senses. "Does not He who created the ear hear, and He who created the eye see?" And God created time, so that we could understand certain realities within time. Otherwise, if there is no time, then I'm already in Heaven and need not be concerned about living out a faithful Christian life now. We live within the constraints of time, this is how God created things to be for us.
I may be going too far by introducing this concept because it is difficult to explain. However it helps to understand that events are concurrent in Heaven, past, present and future. I don't think we can understand timelessness in Heaven with our finite minds. I don't think God even created us to have the capability to do this. In fact, one of the reasons I look forward to Heaven is because time will no longer exist. I cannot fully comprehend this now because so much of my life is governed by time. This concept helped me to understand how I could assist in general salvation by consoling Jesus in His Agony. What exactly do you mean by this? Where are we instructed to console Jesus in His agony? In my human understanding, the Agony is a past event, but in the mind of God, this event still exists and we can contribute by participating in the agony of Jesus, as if we were standing there with Mary.Again, I must disagree. Christ has already accomplished the beautiful work of His passion and is NOW seated at the right hand of God. When I pray to Christ my Lord, I am praying to a RISEN Lord, the Lamb of God who has now ascended into the Heavens and is seated at the right hand of God. He is not on the cross any longer.
Einstein, from a purely scientific process, grasped the concept that Time could be overcome somehow.
I joke with my friends that practicing Catholics look younger than everybody else because we are Time Travelers. When we participate at Mass, the door of Heaven opens and we step outside of Time. I just made this up...I haven't seen this written anywhere yet!!
Please be patient with me, but I cannot agree with you when scripture shows me differently.
Darlene
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The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all. II Corinthians 13:14
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Darlene
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Posted: Sat Jun 9th, 2007 03:50 pm |
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Bt the way Tina, when I said I don't think it is possible for us to console Jesus in His Agony, I don't mean that we cannot meditate on what Christ did for us in His passion. I think that is the whole point of the sorrowful mysteries, esp. the 5th Sorrowful Mystery. I contemplate on what the beautiful, sacrificial love in His Passion and show my love and gratitude to Him for reaching down to me, a sinner. But I cannot console Christ in His Passion or His Agony in the garden. This as far as I am concerned, has already happened and I am to respond to these events that have already taken place with living a godly life acceptable to Him.
Darlene
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The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all. II Corinthians 13:14
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japhy
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Posted: Sat Jun 9th, 2007 10:51 pm |
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Darlene wrote: japhy wrote: He said "the body that died on the cross is the same body that is now glorified". What this means is that Jesus's glorified body is not a different body, but the same flesh. So are you saying that the same flesh Christ had while here on earth is exactly the same as it is in Heaven? He layed aside the glory He had with the Father to live in a fleshly body,which was subject to pain and had to eat to live, etc. Please explain what you mean by this.
The Resurrected flesh of Jesus was the same flesh which was crucified, except now it is glorified. It is a "spiritual" body, not meaning it's not a physical body, but that it's no longer a "natural" body. His flesh is no longer subject to the laws of nature, but to the laws of the spirit. The glorified body is not subject to hunger or fatigue or aging, because it is instead directed entirely to the will of the spirit.
Moreover, Jesus is in the flesh in Heaven. The Word, when he became Incarnate through Mary, took on human nature in its totality (except for sin), including the flesh and its necessities. That he was killed in the flesh and raised in the flesh and ascended to Heaven in the flesh is a hope for us that the sufferings we endure in our bodies will be repaid by glorification, not just in our souls, but in our very bodies!
Our resurrection bodies, believe it or not, are our very bodies, glorified. They aren't "new" bodies, but they're not "old" either. They're just "ours". But our new bodies will most definitely be different from these bodies we have now which are subject to decay. In our new bodies, we will be able to defy the laws of nature, such as walking through walls as Christ demonstrated when he appeared to the disciples after His resurrection.
The "difference" as I explained above is that our bodies (meaning our flesh) will no longer be subject to nature, but to the spirit (as you seem to have indicated). What has not changed is the flesh, what has changed is its "master", so to speak. This displays the glory of God all the more, that while our flesh is weak in this life, it is glorified in the next life, where it can fulfill the purpose for which it was made.
Another way to look at it is this: when Christ presented himself to the Apostles after his resurrection, he showed them the nail-prints and spear wound. That's because the body he had was the same as the body which suffered and died. It wasn't a "new" body with the characteristics of the old one "transferred" or "copied" to it, it was the self-same body. And yet somehow, wasn't it different because He had risen. Otherwise, why at one point did Christ caution Mary not to touch Him because He had not risen?
Again, the "difference" is not in the flesh itself. It's a difference in the "law" to which the flesh is a subject: now we are "natural", then we will be "spiritual". Christ said to Mary not to cling to him because he had not yet ascended to the Father; this can be understood at least two ways: 1) she was not in "danger" of losing him all of the sudden, and 2) he had a mission for her to fulfill (cf. John 20:17). Remember that Jesus did not prevent people from touching him (cf. Matt 28:9, John 20:27), but he was telling Mary Magdalene not to cling to him then.
The reason this is harder for us to understand is that our bodies will have decayed by the time they are glorified and raised to immortality. However, it is this very flesh (I cannot agree, because "flesh and blood cannot enter the kingdom of God - our flesh must be changed. I Cor. 15) Also, Paul says that "just as we have borne the image of the man of dust, so shal we bear the image of the man of heaven. The man of dust will be changed into the man of heaven, the latter being different than the former.
By "flesh and blood", Paul is referring to the corruption of our present natures. Flesh and blood alone cannot enter Heaven; they must be changed by the spirit to enter it. But they aren't changed into something that's not flesh and blood, but rather they are subjected fully to the will of the spirit.
That Jesus has true flesh he clearly showed to the Apostles (cf. Luke 24:39-40); he even ate food in front of them (cf. Luke 24:42-43)! Not to mention the Body and Blood of Christ that we consume in the Eucharist is truly Jesus's. The image of the man of dust is a corruptible image -- even Jesus bore this during his days on earth: Jesus bled and aged and required nourishment. The image of the man of heaven is an incorruptible one, but it is still flesh and blood!
which shall see God; I do not doubt God can reconstitute this very same body from its parts long after it has ceased to be a whole.Neither do I, but the way I understand from scripture is that God will take all the atoms that made us who we were but then transform our bodies to be glorified bodies, much different than the bodies we have now, since "flesh and blood cannot enter the kingdom of God. (I Cor. 15:50)
I was quoting Job 19:25-26, by the way: "For I know that my Redeemer lives, and at last he will stand upon the earth; and after my skin has been thus destroyed, then from my flesh I shall see God."
How, would you say, are our bodies different? Did Jesus not have arms, hands, fingers, legs, feet, toes, hips, torso, neck, head, hair, eyes, teeth, nose, mouth? He had skin and bones! The bodies God has given us, He has given us for His glory and for their glorification.
Our glorified bodies are human bodies, but there will be no "waste" with them. We won't shed dead skin cells (there's no death), we won't defecate or urinate (we won't need to sustain our bodies, and there's no waste anyway), and we won't exhaust ourselves.
Tertullian put it very well in his work De resurrectione carnis: "For the very same body which fell in death, and which lay in the sepulchre, did also rise again; (and it was) not so much Christ in the flesh, as the flesh in Christ."
Japhy, is not the manner in which our bodies will be resurrected after the same manner of Christ's resurrection? I quote from I. Cor. 15:51-53:"Lo! I tell you a mystery, we shall not all sleep but we shall be changed , in a moment, in a twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet shall sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed. For this perishable nature must put on the imperishable, and this mortal nature must put on immortality."
Yes, our perishable nature puts on the imperishable, and the mortal nature puts on immortality: that is the glorification. But it is a change of nature, not substance. It is flesh that is no longer corruptible or mortal. This is not because it is different flesh or new flesh, but because the change makes it a flesh of the spirit.
So I still understand that Christ's body in heaven to be far more glorious than the one which he had here on earth, which he laid aside His glory in heaven to wear for just a little while.
Yes, it's a glorious body, more holy than it was before the Resurrection; it's like the body Peter, James, and John saw on Mount Tabor at the Transfiguration. But it's still a "proper" body of flesh and bones and blood, and it's still the same body he accepted through Mary. Jesus did not have a human body until he became Incarnate, so he didn't "lay aside" a "body" to wear a human one for a while, only to give it up upon his return to the Father.
Not that I'm accusing you of heresy, but it was part of the Gnostic heresy that matter (including flesh) was intrisically evil and could not attain goodness. The orthodox stance is that God created all matter, and He saw that it was good, and our flesh, though corruptible now, will be made good again when it is glorified. My answers are above in bold blue text.
Many Church Fathers (and later authors, especially Aquinas) deal with the subject of the Resurrected Body. I've read a great deal of writings on the Resurrection (around three dozen sources), because I'm trying to write a book on the subject, so that's why I know what I know, and that's where I'm getting the information I'm explaining to you.
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[Mary said,] "Do whatever he tells you." - John 2:5
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David W. Emery
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Posted: Sat Jun 9th, 2007 11:13 pm |
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Darlene, I can see you are not happy with speaking of eternity when what you see is time and movement. You are quite right about the change of state our bodies will undergo in the resurrection. If you will recall, I mentioned this same point in another thread on the Eucharist.
However, I continued to maintain that the body of Christ that suffered and died is the same body that is present Eucharistic form on the altar, and that again it is the same body that rose from the tomb and appeared to the apostles in the upper room and in other places, and indeed the same one that ascended into heaven from the place where he blessed the disciples as his last act on earth in human form.
In other words, what we have in the risen Christ is the selfsame person in the selfsame body (which he affirmed in Luke 24:36–42 and John 20:27–29). He could be touched and embraced (Matthew 28:9; John 20:17, 27); he could walk a distance with his disciples (Luke 24:13–29, 42); he could even eat broiled fish (Luke 24:42–43); indeed, was it not the risen Christ who lit a fire and cooked breakfast for the disciples on the shore of the Sea of Galilee in John 21:9–14? Yet that body, being glorified, was changed so that he could alter his appearance (Luke 24:16), pass through locked doors (John 20:19), be instantly transported to distant places (Luke 24:31), etc. Same person, same body, but a body changed and “spiritual” (1 Corinthians 15:35–57; cf. CCC 366; 625–626; 645–646; 999; 1017; 1060).
And so it is in the Eucharist. It is Jesus himself, body and blood, soul and divinity. Only his body is changed and now takes the form of bread and wine, for we already know from the above biblical references that he can alter his appearance and appear and disappear at will.
We must not, then, impose the law of the earthly body over the resurrected body, even though it is but the same body transformed. Likewise, when we deal with time and eternity, we cannot impose the laws of the one upon the other.
The eternal Now is confusing when one tries to understand it in relation to the temporal flow of “Before” to “Now” to “After.” This is not because it is a contradiction, but because it is not time. Therefore, in eternity, there will be no confusion about events past, present and future, because it operates according to its own laws, which the citizens of that realm will find quite natural and acceptable and understandable.
David
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Darlene
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Posted: Sun Jun 10th, 2007 03:11 pm |
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Ok, here I go again. After reading your responses to me, I think I have a grasp on what you originally said David. And btw, I in no way consider matter to be of an evil nature, since it is through matter in our Incarnate Lord, that God chose to redeem us.
Now I will explain why I reacted the way I did to your comment, David. You said: "The body that died on the cross is the same body that is now glorified." I thought you were saying that there was no difference between the body of our Lord on the cross and the body of our resurrected, glorified Lord. But from all that has been said thus far, esp. by Japhy with whom you concurred, I think my original assumption of your statement was incorrect. Now what I am understanding both of you are saying is that the body Christ had here on earth is the same body that was resurrected, ascended into Heaven, is now glorified and is seated at the right hand of God. And that glorious, risen body of our Lord bears the marks of the incarnate body He had while on this earth, namely the scars in His hands and the wound in His side. However, this glorified body is no longer subject or dependent upon the laws of nature it once was while on earth. Examples of this would be: Jesus nursed from His mother, Jesus aged, He ate to survive, He bled when cut, He eliminated waste, He grew tired, etc. These examples show the glory He laid aside as the Incarnate Lord, the Son of Man. However, now in His glorified state in Heaven, He no longer is subject to these things. So while His body bears the marks of the Crucified Christ, the body which He now possesses is the glorified flesh of the Incarnate Christ.
Would both both of you, Japhy and David, agree with what I said in bold? This is what I perceive you were trying to explain to me. But in order to be reassured that we are on the same page here, and that I understand clearly what you mean to say about Christ in the Eucharist, please let me know if I am correct in my explanation.
Darlene
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The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all. II Corinthians 13:14
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Jackie
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| Joined: | Sat May 12th, 2007 |
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Posted: Sun Jun 10th, 2007 03:35 pm |
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| WOW.........WOW........WOW........YOU GUYS ARE DEEP.............BUT I'M LEARNING.................WOW..................j
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David W. Emery
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Posted: Sun Jun 10th, 2007 04:12 pm |
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Yes, Darlene, I think we are on the same page now. I tend to be very economical with words, and sometimes it is easy for people of another tradition to be pulled off track by a minor point of grammar.
David
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Darlene
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Posted: Sun Jun 10th, 2007 04:15 pm |
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David W. Emery wrote: Darlene, I can see you are not happy with speaking of eternity when what you see is time and movement. David, I do not have a problem with the concept of eternity, that is, that such a concept exists. On the other hand, I do not think that we as finite beings can even begin to comprehend the mystery of this subject. Yes, Christ spoke of giving eternal life to all those who would hear His word and believe Him. (John 5:24) So the fact that Jesus spoke to us about eternity shows that He put a longing to live for eternity into the heart of mankind. Thus, He appeals to our desire to live infinitely, since Adam and Eve ruined this opportunity through their sin, thereby bringing physical death to all who would follow after them. However, I do not think that God created us to be capable of understanding the complexity of eternity. And therefore, I think that it is very easy to incorporate and apply human understanding to a subject that is in many ways, ungraspable. That is why I disagreed with Tina. I do not think that we should somehow surmise that outside of our limited time Christ is still a babe, and Christ is still in agony, and Christ is still on the cross, etc And then from that understanding, surmise that we can console Christ in His Agony and Crucifixiion. If one carries this thinking out, then that must mean we can somehow join with Mary in nursing Him, and we can somehow join with Mary in rocking Him to sleep. If there is no time, and we can somehow project ourselves into eternity now, then the possibilities are endless. Why we can walk with Moses across the Red Sea. We can celebrate the entrance into Jerusalmen with David. We can even be with the Triune God in the beginning of creation, creating with Them. Now do I mean to say that we cannot commemorate these things which have happened in our glorious Judeo Christian tradition? Of course not. The Jews remembered what God had done for them on Passover and recounted all the ways in which God had delivered them, meditating on His miraculous acts. So to meditate/ponder on and be thankful for what God has done for us is only right. But to somehow then make the leap and say that we should "console Jesus" is just a bit too exptreme. And where is there even an implication of doing so in scripture? How does one put such an act into practice? Why do I need to console Jesus who has now conquered death and lives to ever make intercession for me. My Lord does not need my consolation. What He wants is my love, my devotion, my prayers, my life. To console means to have compassion or pity on, to encourage to relieve, to soothe, to sympathize with. Jesus Christ, the victorious Lord, Savior and King, needs none of these things from me. I, as a sinner and dependent upon Him, need these things from Him. In other words, what we have in the risen Christ is the selfsame person in the selfsame body (which he affirmed in Luke 24:36–42 and John 20:27–29). He could be touched and embraced (Matthew 28:9; John 20:17, 27); he could walk a distance with his disciples (Luke 24:13–29, 42); he could even eat broiled fish (Luke 24:42–43); indeed, was it not the risen Christ who lit a fire and cooked breakfast for the disciples on the shore of the Sea of Galilee in John 21:9–14? Yet that body, being glorified, was changed so that he could alter his appearance (Luke 24:16), pass through locked doors (John 20:19), be instantly transported to distant places (Luke 24:31), etc. Same person, same body, but a body changed and “spiritual” (1 Corinthians 15:35–57; cf. CCC 366; 625–626; 645–646; 999; 1017; 1060). I agree.
We must not, then, impose the law of the earthly body over the resurrected body, even though it is but the same body transformed. Likewise, when we deal with time and eternity, we cannot impose the laws of the one upon the other. I agree with this when it comes to understanding the nature of our resurrected, glorified Lord and His presence in the Eucharist. However, as I explained above, we are unable to understand eternity in its complexities. We will only understand eternity when we depart this life and enter Heaven.
The eternal Now is confusing when one tries to understand it in relation to the temporal flow of “Before” to “Now” to “After.” This is not because it is a contradiction, but because it is not time. Therefore, in eternity, there will be no confusion about events past, present and future, (that is right, but we are not in eternity yet. That is why we must work, pay bills, eat, etc. etc.) because it operates according to its own laws, (which we have no knowledge of since we are bound by time) which the citizens of that realm will find quite natural and acceptable and understandable.(And those who are now passed from this life into eternity do) But we canot understand this concept now. To somehow juxtapose now and forever and come up with concrete applications that live themselves out in "consoling Christ in His agony" result in erroneous practices. Should I somehow assume that eternity outside of my time constraints means all things that have ever happened or will happen are all occuring at the same time? And that in this timelessness, which encompasses all that has and will happen regarding salvation, and is occuring simultaneously, I can join in any one of these occurances at any time? Again, I say, this is chaos! Christ has died, Christ is risen, Christ will come again. Is this not proclaimed at the Mass? Is this not spoken of within the constaints of time. Otherwise why not say, Christ has not yet died but He has, Christ has not yet risen, but He has, Christ has not yet returned and yet He has. We speak in time constraints because this is how God created us and how He wishes for us to understand Him. God outside of eternity is a mystery which we cannot presume to understand and then apply practices from our faulty human limitations which result in questionable and pointless practices. Darlene
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The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all. II Corinthians 13:14
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David W. Emery
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Posted: Sun Jun 10th, 2007 09:17 pm |
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Darlene wrote:David, I do not have a problem with the concept of eternity, that is, that such a concept exists. On the other hand, I do not think that we as finite beings can even begin to comprehend the mystery of this subject.
My comment was not directed to either of these issues, but to the fact that you seemed to be confused as to what we actually do know about eternity. In other words, you seemed to say that because we cannot know everything about eternity, we therefore cannot know anything about it, which is a non sequitur. Maybe that, too, does not represent your thinking, but I thought at the time that it did. Regardless, I mentioned eternity in the first place because this thread is about the Mass and Christ’s eternal sacrifice for our eternal salvation.
I do not think that God created us to be capable of understanding the complexity of eternity. And therefore, I think that it is very easy to incorporate and apply human understanding to a subject that is in many ways, ungraspable. That is why I disagreed with Tina. I do not think that we should somehow surmise that outside of our limited time And then from that understanding, surmise that we can console Christ in His Agony and Crucifixion.
I’m tempted to say, “This was precisely my point. You disagreed because you misunderstood what we do know about eternity.” But in retrospect, perhaps you simply misunderstood Tina.
The idea that “Christ is still a babe, and Christ is still in agony, and Christ is still on the cross, etc.” is not what Tina was saying. He is not still in these conditions; he is, in his eternity, now in these conditions. In other words, perhaps you think that Tina is telling you that eternity is like time, with a “before,” and “during” and an “after.” But we’ve already agreed that that eternity is not like time, because it is the absence of time. And I believe Tina knows this, too, because it’s standard Catholic theology.
If one carries this thinking out, then that must mean we can somehow join with Mary in nursing Him, and we can somehow join with Mary in rocking Him to sleep. If there is no time, and we can somehow project ourselves into eternity now, then the possibilities are endless. Why we can walk with Moses across the Red Sea. We can celebrate the entrance into Jerusalem with David. We can even be with the Triune God in the beginning of creation, creating with Them.
This is possible in our imagination, but it has to do with historical events and therefore is bound up in time. But that’s not eternity. Nevertheless, the type of prayer known as discursive meditation is based on precisely this use of the imagination. We are to “be there” in the scene we are pondering. And I think this is close to what you meant in speaking of “commemorating” the past. So we are not disagreeing here.
But to somehow then make the leap and say that we should "console Jesus" is just a bit too extreme.
If you take this from your misunderstanding of Tina’s thesis, obviously it would be a “leap.” But if you understand aright, there are ways to make it perfectly reasonable.
To begin with, the basic idea of “consoling” Jesus in his agony comes from the gospel: “And there appeared to him an angel from heaven, strengthening him” (Luke 22:43). If an angel can do this, why can’t we?
One puts the concept into practice in the following ways (taken from various internet sites as listed):
• Mother Teresa’s charity was not inspired by trendy social reforms or health care schemes. In the poor, the sick and the dying, Mother Teresa [of Calcutta] saw and tried to console Christ himself.
• We also see Christ and receive him in the “least” of our brothers and sisters. We are fortunate when we can minister to the unfortunate people that cross our path. Serving others is like being present to console Christ as he suffers in agony, staying beside his cross as he dies in pain. I cannot be by Jesus’ cross on Calvary, but I can accompany someone who is dying in the hospital, someone who has nothing to eat, someone who has had everything taken from him. How fortunate to accompany Christ in these moments! It is Christ who has done so much for each of us whom we now have the privilege to care for. 1
• With each Hail Mary [of the rosary] we remind her of her divine Motherhood, we remind her that we are poor sinners in need of her prayers, and we plead with her to lend us her Immaculate Heart for just this one hour so that we may, in the most perfect way, respond to the thought that out of all the thousands of persons in this area, we few are chosen to be here, because we want to console our Savior and make reparations for our sins and those of our neighbors. 2
• It is certain that those who make reparation for the sins that are committed today… are contributing, in a mysterious way, to console Our Lord Jesus Christ in the Agony of the Garden, giving Him that suave and sweet wine to drink. 3
• [From a meditation on the Stations of the Cross] Along with the terrible spiritual desolation, Jesus suffered the most intense and agonizing physical distress. A terrible thirst was not the least of them, as we heard from the psalm, "My throat is dried up like baked clay, my tongue cleaves to my jaws." Yet we can be sure that St. John is not speaking here of physical thirst alone, but of the thirst of Jesus for souls. Perhaps He knew at that terrible moment that in spite of His supreme sacrifice, many souls would refuse the salvation gained by the shedding of His Precious Blood, and would suffer the torments of hell forever. His suffering for them would be in vain. Surely we wish to spare Him this additional suffering. Join me in this resolution: I resolve not to be one of those for whom the Son of God suffered in vain! I will repent of my sins! I will console Him in His agony! I will return love for love! 4
The idea of consoling Christ in his agony is a matter of traditional spirituality in the Catholic Church, so Tina is not just making it up. You see that by repenting and renouncing sin, by making personal reparation for sin, even including putting into practice the works of mercy, we please the Father and his Son eternally. This means that we also console the Son; we unite our own suffering and obedience with his and in our own bodies we “complete what is lacking in Christ’s afflictions for the sake of his body, that is, the church” (Colossians 1:24).
This does not deny Jesus’ intercession for us; it complements it. As a human being, our Lord does indeed need consolation and happiness. As human beings, we ourselves have a need to console those who suffer; otherwise we are cold and merciless, and there will be no place for us in heaven. And again, we have a need to be quit of our sins, and if we desire this, we help and strengthen Jesus in his agony, for he has that much less to suffer.
You have said more in defense of your thesis, and I acknowledge this. But I believe that what I have written above will cover it. If it does not, then we can discuss the additional points you make separately.
David
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japhy
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| Joined: | Thu Apr 26th, 2007 |
| Location: | Princeton, New Jersey USA |
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Posted: Sun Jun 10th, 2007 11:46 pm |
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Darlene wrote: Now I will explain why I reacted the way I did to your comment, David. You said: "The body that died on the cross is the same body that is now glorified." I thought you were saying that there was no difference between the body of our Lord on the cross and the body of our resurrected, glorified Lord. But from all that has been said thus far, esp. by Japhy with whom you concurred, I think my original assumption of your statement was incorrect.
Right: the body that died on the cross is now glorified. That is the change, the glorification. That glorification entails, among other things, the total submission of the flesh to the spirit. But it's still the same flesh.
Now what I am understanding both of you are saying is that the body Christ had here on earth is the same body that was resurrected, ascended into Heaven, is now glorified and is seated at the right hand of God. And that glorious, risen body of our Lord bears the marks of the incarnate body He had while on this earth, namely the scars in His hands and the wound in His side. However, this glorified body is no longer subject or dependent upon the laws of nature it once was while on earth. Examples of this would be: Jesus nursed from His mother, Jesus aged, He ate to survive, He bled when cut, He eliminated waste, He grew tired, etc. These examples show the glory He laid aside as | | |
