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Dave Armstrong Network Apologist

| Joined: | Fri Nov 2nd, 2007 |
| Location: | Melvindale, Michigan USA |
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| First Name: | Dave | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Evangelical (1977): Diverse Protestant Influences / Catholic in 1990 |
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Posted: Mon Apr 14th, 2008 07:28 pm |
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Wittenberg in 1536
Excerpt from my book, Martin Luther: Catholic Critical Analysis and Praise, Chapter Eight:
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Luther rejected confirmation as a sacrament. That much is clear. But he didn’t reject it altogether, as a useful (though not required) rite. Lutherans have differed on the question through the centuries, with some observing it and others not doing so. We again find Luther, characteristically, refusing to disallow it, and he preached on at least one occasion that he would not find fault:
. . . if every pastor examines the faith of the children . . . lays hands on them, and confirms them
(in James F. White, Protestant Worship: Traditions in Transition, Louisville: Westminster John Knox Press, 1989, 45; sermon of 15 March 1523 [WA, Vol. XI, 66] )
Some have maintained that Luther’s Small Catechism, written for children, was, in effect, a means for parents to prepare their children for confirmation, so that later a pastor could examine and confirm them.
Luther approved of, for example, the Brandenburg Church Order of 1540, written by Johannes Bugenhagen, that included confirmation and even episcopal church government. He also supported the Wittenberg Church Order, composed by Melanchthon in 1545. This included a confirmation rite as well.
Luther was fairly clear in his treatment of the topic in his 1520 treatise, The Babylonian Captivity of the Church:
I wonder what could have possessed them to make a sacrament of confirmation out of the laying on of hands, (Mark 16:18; Acts 6:6, Acts 8:17, Acts 19:6) which Christ employed when He blessed young children, (Mark 10:16) and the apostles when they imparted the Holy Spirit, ordained elders and cured the sick, as the Apostle writes to Timothy, “Lay hands suddenly on no man.” (1 Timothy 5:22) Why have they not also turned the sacrament of the bread into confirmation? For it is written in Acts 9:19, “And when he had taken meat he was strengthened,” and in Psalm 104:15, “And that bread may cheer man’s heart. “Confirmation would thus include three sacraments — the bread, ordination, and confirmation itself. But if everything the apostles did is a sacrament, why have they not rather made preaching a sacrament?
I do not say this because I condemn the seven sacraments, but because I deny that they can be proved from the Scriptures. Would to God we had in the Church such a laying on of hands as there was in apostolic times, whether we called it confirmation or healing! But there is nothing left of it now but what we ourselves have invented to adorn the office of the bishops, that they may have at least something to do in the Church. For after they relinquished to their inferiors those arduous sacraments together with the Word, as being too common for themselves, — since, forsooth, whatever the divine Majesty has instituted has to be despised of men — it was no more than right that we should discover something easy and not too burdensome for such delicate and great heroes to do, and should by no means entrust it to the lower clergy as something common — for whatever human wisdom has decreed has to be held in honor among men! Therefore, as are the priests, so let their ministry and duty be. For a bishop who does not preach the Gospel or care for souls, what is he but an idol in the world, having but the name and appearance of a bishop? (1 Corinthians 8:4) But we seek, instead of this, sacraments that have been divinely instituted, among which we see no reason for numbering confirmation. For, in order that there be a sacrament, there is required above all things a word of divine promise, whereby faith, may be trained. But we read nowhere that Christ ever gave a promise concerning confirmation, although He laid hands on many and included the laying on of hands among the signs in Mark 16:18 “They shall lay their hands on the sick, and they shall recover.” Yet no one referred this to a sacrament, nor can this be done.
Hence it is sufficient to regard confirmation as a certain churchly rite or sacramental ceremony, similar to other ceremonies, such as the blessing of holy water and the like. For if every other creature is sanctified by the word and by prayer, (1 Timothy 4:4 f.) why should not much rather man be sanctified by the same means? Still, these things cannot be called sacraments of faith, because there is no divine promise connected with them, neither do they save; but sacraments do save those who believe the divine promise.
(Albert T. W. Steinhaeuser / Robert E. Smith version; cf. Three Treatises section: pp. 218-219)
Philip Melanchthon’s Apology for the Augsburg Confession (1530) states:
6] Confirmation and Extreme Unction are rites received from the Fathers which not even the Church requires as necessary to salvation, because they do not have God's command. Therefore it is not useless to distinguish these rites from the former, which have God's express command and a clear promise of grace.
(Article XIII [VII]: Of the Number and Use of the Sacraments; from Triglot Concordia)
Bibliography of Sources
The Babylonian Captivity of the Church, translated by Albert T. W. Steinhaeuser; English text edited and modernized by Robert E. Smith [2002]. Originally published in Works of Martin Luther with Introductions and Notes, Philadelphia: A. J. Holman Company, 1915, 167-293. Available online.
Triglot Concordia: The Symbolical Books of the Evangelical Lutheran Church: German-Latin-English, translated by F. Bente and W.H.T. Dau, St. Louis: Concordia Publishing House, 1921. The entire Book of Concord (including the Apology for the Augsburg Confession) is available online. Last edited on Mon Apr 14th, 2008 07:31 pm by Dave Armstrong
____________________ I'm happy to offer whatever theological & personal assistance I can. My blog, Biblical Evidence for Catholicism, contains 2000+ papers & web pages (absolutely free) & 16 apologetic books (for sale):
http://www.biblicalcatholic.com/
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Free Member
| Joined: | Wed Nov 28th, 2007 |
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| First Name: | Jane | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Presbyterian, Gnostic, non-denominational, Catholic |
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Posted: Mon Apr 14th, 2008 08:07 pm |
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I was "confirmed" as a Presbyterian child (about 12-years-old), but confirmation was not considered to be a sacrament, and I don't remember anyone laying hands on me.
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Dave Armstrong Network Apologist

| Joined: | Fri Nov 2nd, 2007 |
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Posted: Mon Apr 14th, 2008 08:24 pm |
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| I think Lutherans who accept confirmation would probably believe that something tangible takes place at confirmation: more so than (far as I know) Presbyterians would believe, because Lutherans have a far more "Catholic" sacramental undertanding (i.e., broadly speaking: in terms of matter conveying grace or blessings).
____________________ I'm happy to offer whatever theological & personal assistance I can. My blog, Biblical Evidence for Catholicism, contains 2000+ papers & web pages (absolutely free) & 16 apologetic books (for sale):
http://www.biblicalcatholic.com/
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Christine Ann Member

| Joined: | Mon Oct 9th, 2006 |
| Location: | An Hours' Drive From Cincinnati, Ohio USA |
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| First Name: | Christine Ann | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | former Lutheran, Baptist, now Catholic. |
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Posted: Mon Apr 14th, 2008 11:12 pm |
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Dave,
I was confirmed at age 13 as a Lutheran. This came after 2 years of study and memorization of the Small Cathechism with the Pastor. It was very important to me...I was confirming my faith in God as presented to me and I took it very seriously. It was a "right of passage" of sorts and I could then take communion with the adults.
I've been told by an RCIA person that my confirmation as a Lutheran is meaningless when becoming Catholic. Yesterday I spoke with our priest who thought that my Lutheran confirmation would suffice, but he "will check it out". I'm formally coming into the Church on April 20th, and now I'm wondering if I'm confirmed already, or not.
Can someone clear this up for me?
In His Love,
Christine Ann
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Dave Armstrong Network Apologist

| Joined: | Fri Nov 2nd, 2007 |
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Posted: Tue Apr 15th, 2008 05:50 pm |
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Hi Christine Ann,
Thanks for that background. The Catholic Church would accept Lutheran confirmation (and Eucharist for that matter) as good and pious acts of devotion to God, but we cannot accept their validity as sacraments because of the defect in apostolic succession. We believe that priests and bishops are ordained in continuity with a line of history stretching back all the way to the apostles. This was broken in the 16th century by the various Protestant groups. Only a validly ordained priest or bishop can preside over these sacraments.
Catholic confirmation is either done by a bishop or someone delegated by him. That would disqualify a Lutheran confirmation, in terms of counting as "Catholic."
All trinitarian baptism, however, is happily acknowledged as valid, and possesing the same spiritual power and blessings as specifically Catholic baptism.
____________________ I'm happy to offer whatever theological & personal assistance I can. My blog, Biblical Evidence for Catholicism, contains 2000+ papers & web pages (absolutely free) & 16 apologetic books (for sale):
http://www.biblicalcatholic.com/
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Cinlite Member
| Joined: | Fri Apr 18th, 2008 |
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| First Name: | Cynthia | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Raised Lutheran, as an adult I was Evangelical , then ... |
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Posted: Sat Apr 19th, 2008 03:10 am |
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I was raised in the Missouri Synod Lutheran Church with the highest respect for communion and the confirmation process. I couldn't wait till I was of age to be confirmed in the Church and receive my first communion. Confirmation was a significant event in that branch of the Lutheran Church and it took approximately 2 years preparation time before this event could take place. I strongly believe that the Lord used this experience in my life to lead me, to embrace Catholic theology and the doctrine of the real presence of Jesus Christ in the Eucharist. I am looking forward to the day when I can be confirmed in the Catholic Church and actually partake of this awesome privilege.
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CajunRick Network Helper

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Posted: Sun Apr 20th, 2008 12:40 am |
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Cinlite wrote: I am looking forward to the day when I can be confirmed in the Catholic Church and actually partake of this awesome privilege.
Welcome to our forum, Callie. We're glad to have you here with us, and we'll be happy to welcome you to the banquet when the time is right.
____________________ Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
Luquette Lane
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Dave Armstrong Network Apologist

| Joined: | Fri Nov 2nd, 2007 |
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| First Name: | Dave | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Evangelical (1977): Diverse Protestant Influences / Catholic in 1990 |
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Posted: Mon Apr 21st, 2008 06:19 pm |
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Hi Cynthia,
Delighted to meet you, and welcome. There are several present or former Lutherans active on the board. I have great respect for Lutheranism, and know many wonderful friends from that tradition. Much of what you were taught there is not repudiated in the Catholic Church. We can all rejoice in the common ground that all Christians share, to various degrees.
____________________ I'm happy to offer whatever theological & personal assistance I can. My blog, Biblical Evidence for Catholicism, contains 2000+ papers & web pages (absolutely free) & 16 apologetic books (for sale):
http://www.biblicalcatholic.com/
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