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baptist
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| First Name: | John | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | RCC to Baptist |
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Posted: Sun Oct 14th, 2007 12:27 am |
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The Bible teaches us that to baptize a person, it must be immersion. Why many groups are not using this method?
Is it possible to translate this phrase, "John the Baptist" to "John the Immerser" to avoid confusion of which method of baptism should be used?
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David W. Emery
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Posted: Sun Oct 14th, 2007 01:48 am |
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According to the Greek scholars I have consulted on this question (I do not myself know Greek), in Classical Greek (that spoken by Homer and other Greeks of the pre-Christian period) the word did indeed mean “immersion.” However, in the Koine Greek spoken in the time of Christ and the beginnings of Christianity, the word had a wider meaning. Thus, in Mark 7:3–4 (if memory serves; it’s been a while since I looked this up) we encounter the word used in the “washing” of hands, cups, pots and bronze vessels, and here it is clearly not a matter of “immersion” but of cleansing.
1 Peter 3:21 carries this same idea forward by specifying that baptism represents not a physical cleansing but a spiritual one. Acts 22:16, 1 Corinthians 6:11 and Hebrews 10:22 concur, showing that baptism “washes away our sins.” This is why Paul also asks, “Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death?” (Romans 6:3) and explains our incorporation into Christ in Galatians 3:26–27: “In Christ Jesus you are all sons of God, through faith. For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ.”
David
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BodRod
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| First Name: | Cliff | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Raised an SDA, then Generic Christian, finally at home with ... |
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Posted: Sun Oct 14th, 2007 06:16 am |
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| In my RCIA, we were taught that the water was the important element of the experience. Water had been used for cleansing and healing clear back into Old Testament days.
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Gratias agamus Domino Deo nostro.
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Br_Carlo
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Posted: Sun Oct 14th, 2007 09:05 am |
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God's peace. Baptist posted: "The Bible teaches us that to baptize a person, it must be immersion. Why many groups are not using this method?"
Actually, the Bible doesn't "teach" immersion--the Church (and some other Christian eccelesial bodies, such as the Baptists) does. However, the Church has never taught that immersion is the only valid form of baptism, although many Protestant sects do. Specifically, what the Catholic Church teaches is that proper baptism is accomplished by immersing the person in the water or by pouring the water on the person (accompanied, of course, by the proper intent on the part of the baptiser and the proper Trinitarian formula). Baptism by sprinkling, or aspersion, is accepted as valid baptism when persons from other Christian bodies come into full communion with the Catholic Church, but today Catholics do not practice it.
CCC 1239: "The essential rite of the sacrament follows: Baptism properly speaking. It signifies and actually brings about death to sin and entry into the life of the Most Holy Trinity through configuration to the Paschal mystery of Christ. Baptism is performed in the most expressive way by triple immersion in the baptismal water. However, from ancient times it has also been able to be conferred by pouring the water three times over the candidate's head."
Baptist, I would suggest that a more important area for you to explore is what baptism actually does. It is far more than a symbol. This is where the Christian is "born again," and this is where our sins--original and actual--are washed away. This teaching is taken straight from the Bible and is faithfully taught by the Catholic Church. Blessings, ~Br_Carlo~
Last edited on Sun Oct 14th, 2007 12:43 pm by Br_Carlo
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CajunRick
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Posted: Sun Oct 14th, 2007 12:02 pm |
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baptist wrote: The Bible teaches us that to baptize a person, it must be immersion. Why many groups are not using this method?
Where does the Bible teach us that baptism must be by immersion only? Obviously this teaching has been missed by two thousand years of Christians.
Catholic Answers publishes a tract called Baptism: Immersion Only? which challenges the belief that the Bible teaches Baptism by immersion only.
It simply isn't true, and has never been Christian practice. How could Jesus ocmmand the baptism of all nations if immersion is a practical impossibility in desert climates? Were the secret baptisms in Nazi prison camps, or in Muslim countries where it is illegal to become Christian, invalid because immersion wasn't possible?
Changing the name of John the Baptist to "John the Immerser" (even though we have no record of John baptizing by immersion) would clarify those claims that the Baptist church was founded by John the Baptist. That would be a good thing, since John died before Jesus and therefore any church founded by him could not be based on the redemptive act of Jesus. John knew this, too, which is why he sent his disciples to Jesus.
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Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
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DrDave
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| First Name: | Dave | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Cradle - Lapsed - Renewed Catholic |
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Posted: Mon Oct 15th, 2007 06:15 am |
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I too am not a Greek scholar, merely repeating what I heard on a recent Journey Home episode (I think it was the Evangelical Roundtable) where one of the guests quoted Heb 9:10 "And divers washings, and justices of the flesh laid on them until the time of correction" DRV, and pointed out that the Greek Bapsimoi which is translated in this verse as washings was a plural form of the word for Baptism. His reasoning was that if the word for baptism could be validly rendered immersion then likewise Baptimoi above should be rendered immersions.
Upon looking into it further, he was unable to resolve this verse with the ceremonial laws found in the OT, i.e. he could find "washings" but not "immersions". His conclusion was that if immersions was a wrong translation for baptismoi then an insistence on a translation of immersion for baptism could not be supported. (Then he became Catholic  )
Regards Dave
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EMarshallBuckles
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Posted: Wed Dec 12th, 2007 12:46 am |
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| As usual, in reading these threads, I am "a day late and a dollar short", ha ha, however, in our local newspaper, a retired Baptist Minister wrote in, when a debate about Baptism had started. He said that his understanding of the Scriptures, despite what Baptists teach, was that either the Baptist form of "dunking them" or the practice of the Roman Catholic Church and other churches was also acceptable. I seem to recall that he seemed to feel that unless the Jordan River was in flood stage, it might be kind of hard to immerse someone. I have come to the conclusion that if Jesus had wanted to specify one form or another, He likely would have done so. Mind you, I don't read Greek so I haven't gotten into the analysis of the passages regarding Baptism, however, I have to suspect that the Lord wanted salvation to be extremely simple for us and, likewise, the sacraments (or ordinances as Baptists refer to them) fairly easy for people to accomplish.
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Br_Carlo
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| Location: | Tyler, Texas USA |
| Posts: | 150 |
| First Name: | Br_Carlo (Vince Brach) | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Presbyterian, Episcopalian, CATHOLIC |
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Posted: Wed Dec 12th, 2007 06:47 am |
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| God's peace. There's nothing like the truth, is there? A good friend of mine here in Tyler is a Southern Baptist pastor. His church used to be called "Sylvania Baptist Church." After many discussions with him about baptism (and other things), among which the issues on this thread were aired, he has changed its name--and its sign out front--to "Sylvania Church." (Note: they also have kneelers in their new sanctuary!) Blessings, ~Br_Carlo~
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Ali
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| First Name: | Ali | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | JW, finally fully Catholic |
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Posted: Wed Dec 12th, 2007 08:36 am |
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CajunRick wrote: John died before Jesus and therefore any church founded by him could not be based on the redemptive act of Jesus. John knew this, too, which is why he sent his disciples to Jesus.
Ohh, I like how you said this. My neighbor, who is a baptist, told me that her religion was older than the Catholic religion. I need to remember how you said this for future discussions.
Ali
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