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brian
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| Location: | Chicago South Burbs, Illinois USA |
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| First Name: | brian | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | methodist, evangelical, anglican, catholic |
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Posted: Tue Aug 21st, 2007 03:50 pm |
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| How old does a child need to be before it is their own decision to get baptized if their parents decided not to baptize the child? At what point is it not ok to have them baptized on the faith ofd the parent and make it a personal decision. I know somebody who is considering having a child baptized, but she is only starting to consider coming back into the faith. So the idea of committing to raising the child in the Catholic church is not a commitment she wantsa to make before making sure she is sure she is going to stay there. The child is about 8 or so and actually wants to be baptized. Is there a point where the child is seen as old enough to personally committing to live a CAtholic life at baptism, or would they be too young for that since they can not possibly know the differences between religious beliefs and where there life will take them?
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Racaela Fultz
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Posted: Tue Aug 21st, 2007 05:48 pm |
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Being raised protestant, I was baptized at age 8, after making a profession of faith and expressing a desire to be baptized. I knew what I was doing, too.
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"To be deep in history is to cease to be protestant" - Cardinal Newman
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BodRod
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Posted: Tue Aug 21st, 2007 10:03 pm |
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| It seems to me that if the parents are in agreement to baptize the child, the age question would be up to the priest. If parents are not in agreement, then the age would be 18 years old.
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Gratias agamus Domino Deo nostro.
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David W. Emery
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Posted: Tue Aug 21st, 2007 10:54 pm |
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BodRod wrote:
It seems to me that if the parents are in agreement to baptize the child, the age question would be up to the priest. If parents are not in agreement, then the age would be 18 years old.
Eighteen corresponds with the age of majority as listed in canon law (canon 97). It is also the age below which I myself would not have been allowed to be baptized, although this took place under the previous canon law, in effect before 1983.
Assuming parental consent, the priest’s judgment would enter the picture only if he perceived the person to be baptized, being still dependent on others for his upbringing, would probably not receive proper nurturing in the faith. In this case, he should refuse baptism until such assurance could be established.
David
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DrSharkey
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Posted: Sat Aug 25th, 2007 03:19 am |
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David W. Emery wrote: It is also the age below which I myself would not have been allowed to be baptized, although this took place under the previous canon law, in effect before 1983.
Assuming parental consent, the priest’s judgment would enter the picture only if he perceived the person to be baptized, being still dependent on others for his upbringing, would probably not receive proper nurturing in the faith. In this case, he should refuse baptism until such assurance could be established.
David
David,
This may be the wrong place to ask this, but you said above that you would not have been allowed to be baptized at that age. This maybe too philosophical, but what is the Church's teaching on said person's eternal soul if they, say, were killed by a drunk driver before receiving the sacrament of Baptism? In my current denomination( church of Christ), we place HEAVY emphasis on baptism, and people are always pseudo-joking about the "guy who has a heart attack & dies right before he gets dunked..." Every minister I've ever heard talk about this always ends up saying "We don't know God's plans...". But does the Catholic Church have any definite teachings on this subject?
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BettyBoopToo
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Posted: Sat Aug 25th, 2007 03:30 am |
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DrSharkey wrote: David,
This may be the wrong place to ask this, but you said above that you would not have been allowed to be baptized at that age. This maybe too philosophical, but what is the Church's teaching on said person's eternal soul if they, say, were killed by a drunk driver before receiving the sacrament of Baptism? In my current denomination( church of Christ), we place HEAVY emphasis on baptism, and people are always pseudo-joking about the "guy who has a heart attack & dies right before he gets dunked..." Every minister I've ever heard talk about this always ends up saying "We don't know God's plans...". But does the Catholic Church have any definite teachings on this subject?
Dr. Sharkey
It was my understanding that before I had officially been baptized, but had began catechism classes with the sisters and then finally moved on into RCIA, that during that time I was basically in a state that if I were to tragically die before my actual babtism that it would fall under what the church calls a baptism of Desire. As I had already showed the desire to walk toward the church and it was just a matter of instruction before I was offically a Catholic. God is not held bound by these actions and he can read and see the desire of our hearts.
Betty
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St. John of the Cross
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DrSharkey
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Posted: Sat Aug 25th, 2007 03:40 am |
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David W. Emery wrote: Assuming parental consent, the priest’s judgment would enter the picture only if he perceived the person to be baptized, being still dependent on others for his upbringing, would probably not receive proper nurturing in the faith. In this case, he should refuse baptism until such assurance could be established.
David
Does this mean that, if & when I "Come Home", the priest would/could then baptize my 8 year old?
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BettyBoopToo
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Posted: Sat Aug 25th, 2007 04:20 am |
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DrSharkey wrote: David W. Emery wrote: Assuming parental consent, the priest’s judgment would enter the picture only if he perceived the person to be baptized, being still dependent on others for his upbringing, would probably not receive proper nurturing in the faith. In this case, he should refuse baptism until such assurance could be established.
David
Does this mean that, if & when I "Come Home", the priest would/could then baptize my 8 year old?
John
you probably would have to speak to the priest at your intended parish. but I do know at our parish there are classes of preparation for older children of converts or catholics that have for one reason or another not had their babies baptized, that would be the childrens version of RCIA but they are called RCIC. They are not as long as the adult version, but they do teach them some basics of the faith. At our Easter Vigil mass there were some older children that were baptized with us also and some of their situations were similar as your interested in.
Betty
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Patience
"Whenever anything disagreeable or displeasing happens to you, remember Christ crucified and be silent."
St. John of the Cross
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David W. Emery
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Posted: Sat Aug 25th, 2007 09:54 am |
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DrSharkey wrote:What is the Church's teaching on said person's eternal soul if they, say, were killed by a drunk driver before receiving the sacrament of Baptism?
Betty has given you a succinct answer. From ancient times, the Church has recognized both the Baptism of Desire and the Baptism of Blood. The latter has to do with those people who, upon professing that the witness of Christians around them has brought them to faith in Jesus Christ, have been summarily executed by the civil authorities without an opportunity to be formally baptized. They are recognized by the Church as martyrs. So whether by desire or by blood, Catholic belief is that God is merciful and kind as well as reasonable.
Does this mean that, if & when I "Come Home", the priest would/could then baptize my 8 year old?
Most probably, yes. As stated above, the only question would be whether there was a reasonable assurance that the child would be catechized and raised henceforth as a Catholic, because he is still a minor.
A person can be baptized at any age. I was baptized at 19. The delay in my case was due to my parents’ opposition to my becoming Catholic.
David
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BettyBoopToo
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Posted: Sun Aug 26th, 2007 04:06 am |
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John
I was just wanting to add one little response to your question here;
what is the Church's teaching on said person's eternal soul if they, say, were killed by a drunk driver before receiving the sacrament of Baptism? In my current denomination( church of Christ), we place HEAVY emphasis on baptism, and people are always pseudo-joking about the "guy who has a heart attack & dies right before he gets dunked..." Every minister I've ever heard talk about this always ends up saying "We don't know God's plans.
When I was first learning (still learning) about the catholic church and all her teachings. One thing that I learned very quickly that I found a great comfort in and also had envisioned in my mind was that since the catholic church is the church christ founded here on earth and he has sent the holy spirit to watch over it taking care to always teach the fullness of truth. You will find that every single question that a person can come up with has an answer some where in church teaching. This is a tremendous comfort and I appreciate it so much after being out in the world and in complete confusion. I could never even find a half dozen people in my protestant world that ageed on any verse in scripture.
I had always imagined in my life that the church christ founded and divinely inspired & protected by the holy spirit from error would have a harmony of teaching blending of scripture, tradition and church magisterium. What I found at the RCC is this perfect harmony. The church has this harmony due to the inspiration of Christ as it's head and is not becuase of any of us humans. if it were left to us humans, we would have ruined it 1,700 yrs ago. The magesterium, pastors and bishops can sometimes disappoint and other times rattle ones faith, but it is because of the almighty power of God that keeps us together through the ages.
I cannot express the peace it brings to be under the teaching of the church. Every question has been answered and can be found already in church teaching somewhere. Even if we have to go and look it up.
Looking forward to your journey
Betty
____________________
Patience
"Whenever anything disagreeable or displeasing happens to you, remember Christ crucified and be silent."
St. John of the Cross
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brian
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Posted: Wed Aug 29th, 2007 02:38 pm |
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David W. Emery wrote: Does this mean that, if & when I "Come Home", the priest would/could then baptize my 8 year old?
Most probably, yes. As stated above, the only question would be whether there was a reasonable assurance that the child would be catechized and raised henceforth as a Catholic, because he is still a minor.
A person can be baptized at any age. I was baptized at 19. The delay in my case was due to my parents’ opposition to my becoming Catholic.
David
But my question is at what age can a person no longer be baptized on their parents faith and have to demonstrate personal understanding, belief in, and commitmement to the faith? I think it is around the time between 8 and 10, but I could be wrong.
Also, I know a diferent mother who does not believe the Catholic faith or have much commitment to practice it or raise her children in it, yet because of other resons is going to have her child baptized. Though I hope the priest at least sk her tough questions and maybe even refuse if they discern her intent. But when I learn this, should I try to discourage her from having them baptized? Part of me thinks I should discourage it as a friend that she listens to (even if she will not agree) based on your answer to my original question where the mother at least partially intended to raise the children Catholic and definitely Christian and the child already believes. Yet, it is so hard for me to discourage anyone from having someone baptized for any reason since I believe it truly makes the person a member of God's church and forgives sins and makes a deposit of the Holy Spirit. Why would anyone not want this even if they never heard another tyhing about the faith, since in some way the Baptism may lead them back to the faith later.
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David W. Emery
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Posted: Wed Aug 29th, 2007 03:45 pm |
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brian wrote:But my question is at what age can a person no longer be baptized on their parents faith and have to demonstrate personal understanding, belief in, and commitmement to the faith?
I know of no specific legislation on this point beyond what is already mentioned. It would appear, then, that with parental permission and assurance of appropriate faith nurturing, a child who wants to be baptized can be baptized at any age. But without parental permission, he would have to wait until age 18. Whether a 13-year-old child (for example) would have a right to refuse baptism does not seem to be covered.
David
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CajunRick
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Posted: Wed Aug 29th, 2007 09:06 pm |
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David W. Emery wrote: Whether a 13-year-old child (for example) would have a right to refuse baptism does not seem to be covered.
It actually is by virtue of the fact that any child beyond the age of reason is to speak for himself answering the questions. He must request baptism when the priest says, "What do you ask of God's Church?" and he also must respond to the baptismal promises. If he doesn't make an affirmative response, the priest is not to baptize him.
The same is true of confirmation. The candidate must respond on his own that he wishes to be confirmed. In fact, no sacrament can be administered to anyone who does not request it (parents speak for children who have not reached the age of reason, as they do in all other things). Even in the Anointing of the Sick, if the person is unable to respond, the priest is to ask friends and family if the person is Catholic and would wish to be anointed, or he will anoint conditionally.
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Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
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brian
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Posted: Thu Aug 30th, 2007 01:22 pm |
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The reason I thought this was because those children above a certain age who were not baptized as babies but wanted to get baptized had to go through RCIC so that they could make an informed decision and be baptized along with the restof the catachumanate. Maybe there parents were not fully initiated either though. I am not sure.
anyway, I was sstill wondering if someone might help me with the earlier mentioned situation.
" Also, I know a different mother who does not believe the Catholic faith or have much commitment to practice it or raise her children in it, yet because of other resons is going to have her infants baptized. Though I hope the priest at least asks her tough questions and maybe even refuse if they discern her intent, but I would imagine she will get the approval.
Should I try to discourage her from having them baptized? Part of me thinks I should discourage it as a friend that she listens to (even if she will not agree) based on your answer to my original question where the mother at least partially intended to raise the children Catholic and definitely Christian and the child already believes. Yet, it is so hard for me to discourage anyone from having someone baptized for any reason since I believe it truly makes the person a member of God's church and forgives sins and makes a deposit of the Holy Spirit. Why would anyone not want this even if they never heard another tyhing about the faith, since in some way the Baptism may lead them back to the faith later."
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