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Lyell
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| Joined: | Wed Mar 21st, 2007 |
| Location: | Livermore, California USA |
| Posts: | 25 |
| First Name: | Dave | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Independant Charismatic, Generic Baptist, Roman Catholic |
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Posted: Fri Aug 22nd, 2008 05:55 am |
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I was talking to a friend that was at church on Fri. celebrating the assumption of Mary and the Priest stated that if you don’t believe in the Assumption of Mary that you are in danger of being excommunicated. I was wondering were he got this. Is it doctrine or what? Lyell's wife.
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Ignorance of the Scriptures is ignorance of Christ - St Jerome
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David W. Emery
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| Joined: | Fri Sep 29th, 2006 |
| Location: | Brownsville, Texas USA |
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| First Name: | David | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Catholic |
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Posted: Fri Aug 22nd, 2008 06:54 am |
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Well, Lyell’s wife, while disbelieving in the Assumption of Mary is against Catholic doctrine, I would hesitate to refer to it as a heresy unless the person got publicly obnoxious about it. I have known Catholics who didn’t believe in the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist, or who did believe that Jesus didn’t know he was the Messiah, or that contraception was morally acceptable, or any of a wide range of other doctrinal aberrations. Not one of them was ever excommunicated.
Excommunication for heresy, while canonically possible, is extremely rare. Usually a heretic simply states what he doesn’t believe and walks off to another religion or into the cesspool of secularity. He is condemned by his sins, no excommunication needed. Only in the case of a dissident luring away thousands of the faithful do the Church authorities act with a public censure such as excommunication, to alert the faithful of the danger of following this person’s doctrine or way. Much more common is a latae sententiae (“automatic”) incurrence of excommunication, where no specific act of the hierarchy is required. The person, by sinning gravely in one of several defined ways, does it to himself.
David
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PraRFLEsEkHm
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| Joined: | Tue Sep 23rd, 2008 |
| Location: | Just West Of Titletown, Frozen Tundra, Wisconsin USA |
| Posts: | 13 |
| First Name: | John | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Lutheran, Baptist, Pentecostal, First Bible Baptist, Non Denominational, Now Catholic ... |
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Posted: Tue Sep 23rd, 2008 08:19 am |
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Hi
First let me say,there are two teachings of the Church, one is Doctrine, the other is Dogma. Doctrine you are free to accept or reject as you wish. To put it simply - all Dogma is doctrine - or Church teaching...but not all docrine, or Church teaching is Dogma. Dogma is that teaching of the Church which you HAVE to believe in order to be Catholic.
Such as The Real Presence in the Eucharist, and the Assumption of Mary, among others. Here is a list:
http://www.theworkofgod.org/dogmas.htm
A Priest is not at fault for denying someone the Eucharist if he does not know they are in contradiction of the Church. Excommunication basically means you are no longer eligable to receive the Sacraments: The Eucharist, Confession, Holy Orders, Marriage, Last Rites, and baptism. Although you can go to Mass, though most don't if they don't believe in what the Church teaches anyway.
However, the Priest cannot excommunicate someone - all the authority he has is to deny the Eucharist. Someone who stubbornly refuses to change their views on dogma gets reported to the Bishop and up the line from there. This rarely happens except when the individual is trying to drive others away from the official Church Dogma.
Last edited on Tue Sep 23rd, 2008 08:21 am by PraRFLEsEkHm
____________________
For many people, you are the only True Scripture they will ever read. So pick up your cross and Live His Word, Pray for those whom you meet, and Stand Firm in the Truth you have received. Above all, Stand. (Ephesians 6)
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BodRod
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| Joined: | Mon Oct 2nd, 2006 |
| Location: | Apple Valley, California USA |
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| First Name: | Cliff | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Raised an SDA, then Generic Christian, finally at home with ... |
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Posted: Tue Sep 23rd, 2008 02:25 pm |
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Let me share my approach to this situation. When I started RCIA (after 4.5 years of personal study) I had a mountain of questions. I had been lied to in my former religion (SDA) and I was not about to let that happen again. My grilling of the RCIA leader was so much and so intense that it became a bit of a joke at RCIA. Every RCIA started with me saying, "I have a question....." and ended with the same statement. Eventually I developed a system of thinking that I had two piles of concepts in my head. One pile was what I believed. The other pile was what I accepted as the teachings of the Church. As I continued to study, listen to Father's homilies, watch EWTN, learn more, etc., my belief pile got higher and my accepted pile got smaller. My current position is that my belief pile is very high and my accepted pile has only one or two concepts left AND I feel that those items will eventually be worked out.
BTW, my personal opinion is that a person can NOT learn 2000 years of history (Church, world and US), Church development, etc. in 9 months of RCIA. To grow in the faith, our study needs to continue for life.
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Gratias agamus Domino Deo nostro.
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Dave Armstrong
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| Joined: | Fri Nov 2nd, 2007 |
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Posted: Tue Sep 23rd, 2008 04:08 pm |
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BTW, my personal opinion is that a person can NOT learn 2000 years of history (Church, world and US), Church development, etc. in 9 months of RCIA.
They're lucky to learn anything at all, since so many of these classes are, sadly, so atrocious!
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I'm happy to offer whatever theological & personal assistance I can. My blog, Biblical Evidence for Catholicism, contains 2100+ papers & web pages (free) & 17 apologetic books (4 sale: 15 E-Books: $25)
http://www.biblicalcatholic.com/
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PraRFLEsEkHm
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| Joined: | Tue Sep 23rd, 2008 |
| Location: | Just West Of Titletown, Frozen Tundra, Wisconsin USA |
| Posts: | 13 |
| First Name: | John | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Lutheran, Baptist, Pentecostal, First Bible Baptist, Non Denominational, Now Catholic ... |
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Posted: Tue Sep 23rd, 2008 08:55 pm |
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Dave Armstrong wrote: BTW, my personal opinion is that a person can NOT learn 2000 years of history (Church, world and US), Church development, etc. in 9 months of RCIA.
They're lucky to learn anything at all, since so many of these classes are, sadly, so atrocious!
I can agree with that. I've spoken with people whose RCIA experience was sitting down and listening to someone read from the Catechism. Not a bad approach, actually - except any questions not covered in class were not answered (and I suspect there were many..since the CCC wasn't prepared to be read like a novel), and in class discussion wasn't encouraged.
I can also agree that 9 months of Rcia (sometimes less) won't get you very far...however, coming to forums like this one, especially where there are Apologists, Priests, Nuns, and Deacons - along with the occasional Brother, can lead you to many answers, as well as more questions. Especially when you use the above mentioned CCC, and double - check answers against that, and the code of Canon Law. As well as reading through Papal Documents like Providentissimus Deus, Spiritus Paraclitus, Divino Afflante Spiritu, as well as books such as 'Rise let us be on our way' from Our beloved John Paul II.
By the time your 9 months are up - you should at least have the bare-bones understanding of what is Dogma, and what is Doctrine...otherwise you don't really know what it is you are agreeing to.
After that - more personal growth and understanding, coupled with helping others to understand what it is they are studying which forces you to learn more yourself for answers not yet clear - and reading the answers posted by those who know more than you do, can really get you a long way.
But the greatest gift of all - comes from God, who Loves us..the encouragement to not just know, but to Live the Gospel. Understanding what Jesus meant when He Said "I desire Mercy, not Sacrifice'. There really is no better way to instruct and help others, than to encourage them to Love as Jesus did. Seeking out the Truths of the Church does lead the way, in a sense - for Trust as well as guidance. But the real prize is learning to Love as Jesus did - and that can only come from following Him, and Living the Gospel.
Peace
John
____________________
For many people, you are the only True Scripture they will ever read. So pick up your cross and Live His Word, Pray for those whom you meet, and Stand Firm in the Truth you have received. Above all, Stand. (Ephesians 6)
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Dave Armstrong
Network Apologist
| Joined: | Fri Nov 2nd, 2007 |
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Posted: Sun Sep 28th, 2008 01:21 am |
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First let me say,there are two teachings of the Church, one is Doctrine, the other is Dogma. Doctrine you are free to accept or reject as you wish. To put it simply - all Dogma is doctrine - or Church teaching...but not all docrine, or Church teaching is Dogma. Dogma is that teaching of the Church which you HAVE to believe in order to be Catholic.
This is not a helpful distinction (dogma vs. doctrine). Where have you drawn it from? Catholics are bound to accept all that the Church teaches. Whatever is in the Catechism, for example, Catholics are obliged to accept. There are fine-tuned distinctions of authority: ex cathedra, infallible (many types of that, even), but there are not "Catholic doctrines" that we are at liberty to reject (which is what is called "cafeteria Catholicism": pick and choose).
What are the "doctrines" you believe are of this nature? I think that will help to clarify the point: to see more specifics.
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I'm happy to offer whatever theological & personal assistance I can. My blog, Biblical Evidence for Catholicism, contains 2100+ papers & web pages (free) & 17 apologetic books (4 sale: 15 E-Books: $25)
http://www.biblicalcatholic.com/
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PraRFLEsEkHm
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| Joined: | Tue Sep 23rd, 2008 |
| Location: | Just West Of Titletown, Frozen Tundra, Wisconsin USA |
| Posts: | 13 |
| First Name: | John | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Lutheran, Baptist, Pentecostal, First Bible Baptist, Non Denominational, Now Catholic ... |
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Posted: Sun Sep 28th, 2008 09:07 am |
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Dave Armstrong wrote: First let me say,there are two teachings of the Church, one is Doctrine, the other is Dogma. Doctrine you are free to accept or reject as you wish. To put it simply - all Dogma is doctrine - or Church teaching...but not all docrine, or Church teaching is Dogma. Dogma is that teaching of the Church which you HAVE to believe in order to be Catholic.
This is not a helpful distinction (dogma vs. doctrine). Where have you drawn it from? Catholics are bound to accept all that the Church teaches. Whatever is in the Catechism, for example, Catholics are obliged to accept. There are fine-tuned distinctions of authority: ex cathedra, infallible (many types of that, even), but there are not "Catholic doctrines" that we are at liberty to reject (which is what is called "cafeteria Catholicism": pick and choose).
What are the "doctrines" you believe are of this nature? I think that will help to clarify the point: to see more specifics.
What I was getting at is that there are certain things the Church teaches which you MUST accept, The Divinity/Humanity of Christ, The Assumption of Mary, The Sacraments, Divinity of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit as ONE God, Etc. If you do not accept these as truth - you cannot be admitted into the Faith, and if you raise a fuss about it you could be excommunicated - otherwise, the Priest - if He knows the Situation - will refuse you the Sacraments of Eucharist, andconfession if you don't confess those faults.
But there are certain Doctrines of the Church Like Capital Punishment for example - the Chuch does have a stance on (Against), but you are free to have your own ideas about that without fear of losing the Sacraments - which was the OP's question I think.
Yes, ALL Church Teaching is Truth, and should be accepted as such...But some things we can disagree on and NOT be cast out or excommunicated for. Although some things which are also Doctrine, like Abortion and Contraceptives equal Mortal Sins if you commit them, and need to be confessed.
Yes, I do agree that picking and choosing what to believe and not to believe is "Catateria Catholicism" and should be avoided altogether. But it should also be made clear to people, I believe, personally - that some things - if they are having a hard time grasping or agreeing with - but DO accept what is Church Dogma, that these people can be allowed into the Church. With the understanding that they will need to come to terms with this should the decision come up in their lives...and not to promote it in other people lives.
That's all I was getting at. because some people do have a hard time "getting it all together" in RCIA, so long as they can accept that these are Church teachings, and what there relavence is, I see no problem with explaining that these things can wait - if they want to be initiated, so long as they understand what the situation is. At least that is how it worked in my Parish for RCIA - many of those things never came up - I had to bring them up myself.
If I shouldn't be doing this, please tell me and I will stop.
Peace
John
____________________
For many people, you are the only True Scripture they will ever read. So pick up your cross and Live His Word, Pray for those whom you meet, and Stand Firm in the Truth you have received. Above all, Stand. (Ephesians 6)
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Dave Armstrong
Network Apologist
| Joined: | Fri Nov 2nd, 2007 |
| Location: | Melvindale, Michigan USA |
| Posts: | 2445 |
| First Name: | Dave | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Evangelical (1977): Diverse Protestant Influences / Catholic in 1990 |
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Posted: Mon Sep 29th, 2008 09:36 pm |
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Okay. I agree with you that capital punishment is one of those. The Church has not declared absolutely that states do not have a right to ever punish criminals with death (or to not go to war or have police). For example, I agree with the recent papal statements about capital punishment, but I favor it in extreme cases (terrorists, mass murderers, serial killers, extremely heinous murders). I also favor the war in Iraq. Popes have come out against that, but the argument is that states still have jurisdiction over such matters, and are given that by God Himself (in Romans 13).
I have no problem with this sort of distinction. The number of these areas where we are allowed to disagree are relatively small. The problem comes when folks want to make the "net" larger and include more and more doctrines under the "optional" classification. Then we get into the liberal mentality that has wreaked havoc in our Church. I was trying to guard against that (even any impression of same), for the sake of our members.
But you don't hold that view, as seen in your clarification, so there is no problem here. Thanks for the specific example. Sorry for sort of giving you a "hard time" (nothing personal!) but I'm just trying to be "vigilant" as a moderator.
____________________
I'm happy to offer whatever theological & personal assistance I can. My blog, Biblical Evidence for Catholicism, contains 2100+ papers & web pages (free) & 17 apologetic books (4 sale: 15 E-Books: $25)
http://www.biblicalcatholic.com/
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PraRFLEsEkHm
Member
| Joined: | Tue Sep 23rd, 2008 |
| Location: | Just West Of Titletown, Frozen Tundra, Wisconsin USA |
| Posts: | 13 |
| First Name: | John | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Lutheran, Baptist, Pentecostal, First Bible Baptist, Non Denominational, Now Catholic ... |
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Posted: Tue Sep 30th, 2008 05:12 pm |
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Hi Dave
yes, I get it - no problem   . Better vigilant than not. I should have clarified myself further in my statement.
____________________
For many people, you are the only True Scripture they will ever read. So pick up your cross and Live His Word, Pray for those whom you meet, and Stand Firm in the Truth you have received. Above all, Stand. (Ephesians 6)
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