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left coast mystic
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| Location: | La Honda, California USA |
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| First Name: | Marcee | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | nondenominational charismatic, Presbyterian, long-time lover of the RCC |
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Posted: Sun Aug 17th, 2008 01:02 am |
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I just bought the Dictionary of Early Christian Beliefs (writings of the church fathers BY TOPIC - very useful). I turned to the section on prayer and found the following entries:
"We speak of Paradise, the place of divine bliss appointed to receive the spirits of the saints. There, the saints are cut off from the knowledge of this world by that fiery zone, as by a sort of enclosure". Tertullian
"It is clear that those who make prayers to the dead...do not act as becomes men. They will suffer punishment for their impiety and guilt. Rebelling against God, the Father of the human race, they have undertaken unforgivable rites. They have violated every sacred law. Lactantius
I'm pretty sure that the two quotes are actually speaking to completely different issues, with the one from Lactantius apparently addressing an aspect of pagan worship, perhaps. But how are we to interpret the quote from Tertullian?
marcee
____________________
Godliness with contentment is great gain. (1 Tim. 6:6)
In returning and rest you shall be saved; in quietness and trust shall be your strength. (Isa. 30:15)
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David W. Emery
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| First Name: | David | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Catholic |
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Posted: Sun Aug 17th, 2008 03:27 am |
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Tertullian and Lactantius, along with Origen, were north Africans of the third century. I am aware that Tertullian and Origen believed in a Millennium and other doctrines which were eventually expunged from the Christian religion that may have some connection with indigenous beliefs. Tertullian’s extreme moral rigor — also known to be common in northern Africa during this time and later solidifying into the Donatist schism and heresy — may have been the deciding factor for his move from Christianity to the heresy of Montanism.
My assumption, then, is that the references you have found are to what we might call the “errata” of antiquity, where Christian authors are demonstrating beliefs that they have retained from the surrounding culture rather than those later defined as authentically Christian.
David
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tedjenczewski
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| First Name: | Ted | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Catholic, Presbyterian, revert Catholic |
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Posted: Sun Aug 17th, 2008 04:50 am |
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| Dave Armstrong's book "The Church Fathers Were Catholic" has a good chapter on the communion of saints. It appears Origin was the first to fully express that the church in heaven prayed for the church on earth. This is supported in Revelation where the souls of the martyrs under the heavenly alter request (i.e. beseech) God to intercede on earth to avenge their deaths. And Hebrews 12,1 cites the great cloud of witnesses from the old covenant that surround us who are spectating as we run the race with perseverence. Last edited on Sun Aug 17th, 2008 05:05 am by tedjenczewski
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"...the church of the living God, the pillar and bulwark of the truth." 1Tim 3, 15
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Free
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| First Name: | Jane | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Presbyterian, Gnostic, non-denominational, Catholic |
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Posted: Sun Aug 17th, 2008 11:37 am |
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I'm not familiar with the dictionary you bought, Marcee. I am familiar with a wonderful set of paperback books on the Church Fathers that also can be used to look things up by topic. The main arrangement is chronological, but the several different indices allow one to look up the writings by doctrine, by scripture reference, and also in a general index. The set of books is called The Faith of the Early Fathers and is compiled by William A. Jurgens.
Jurgens is careful to clearly denote when Tertullian and Origen and some others slip out of orthodox Christian belief and into various heresies. Jurgens also includes some Gnostic writings and other writings that drift into philosophies current at each author's time of writing, and, again, Jurgens is careful to alert the reader as to the Church's assessment of the writings both then and now.
The set of three books is a helpful addition to the libraries of each of us who are coming out of various heresies (including what Hillaire Belloc called the "protestant heresy") and into the orthodox beliefs of Mother Church.
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NorthStar
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| First Name: | Chuck | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Roman Catholic, Evangelical, Orthodox |
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Posted: Sun Aug 17th, 2008 05:51 pm |
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left coast mystic wrote: I just bought the Dictionary of Early Christian Beliefs (writings of the church fathers BY TOPIC - very useful). I turned to the section on prayer and found the following entries:
"We speak of Paradise, the place of divine bliss appointed to receive the spirits of the saints. There, the saints are cut off from the knowledge of this world by that fiery zone, as by a sort of enclosure". Tertullian
"It is clear that those who make prayers to the dead...do not act as becomes men. They will suffer punishment for their impiety and guilt. Rebelling against God, the Father of the human race, they have undertaken unforgivable rites. They have violated every sacred law. Lactantius
I'm pretty sure that the two quotes are actually speaking to completely different issues, with the one from Lactantius apparently addressing an aspect of pagan worship, perhaps. But how are we to interpret the quote from Tertullian?
marcee
Well, from an Orthodox perspective it's important to remember the Church fathers DID make mistakes. St. John Chrysostom believed the Theotokos did commit at least one personal sin, maybe even more. (a quote Orthodox love to use to "disprove" the IC) Remember, Tertullian spent several years outside the mainstream of orthodoxy. I hesitate to use the term schism because I'm not sure what the Catholic view on him is, but he kind of went off the wall towards the end of his life, but I believe at his death was completely orthodox.(small o)
Specifically about that quote, it really contradicts the book of Revelation, which shows the saints know EXACTLY what is going on here on earth, as well as many other Church fathers writings saying they know what is going on. I'm not sure what Tertullian's opinion about the book of Revelation was (did he accept it or not?) but if he didn't accept it as canonical, which many early fathers did not, his opinion might make sense.
Also there might be a specific historical circumstance surrounding this quote that I'm not aware of. You'd need a Church historian, sholar or archeologist to answer that. (or someone who's an expert on Tertullian) But alot of these protestant-esque quotes of Tertullian I believe were from his schismatic days.
I have that book you speak of.And you're right it is a good book. However when I was a protestant studying Orthodoxy, I used it and especially Tertullian to "disprove" alot of Orthodox doctrines....the problem is he is only one Church father who may simply have not know what he was talking about. Justin Martyr believed in the 1000 yr reign of Christ, and so I used that to prove my protestant zionist theology.....for awhile . . . . it wasn't until later that I discovered he was not a 2nd century Christian Zionist, did not believe in a protestant rapture, or being "left behind" or that Judaism was going to rule the world for 1000 yrs, or anything else the more radical Protestants believe. He even admitted many other christians did not hold his view. So while that book is a REALLY good reference, keep in mind that's all it is meant to be. (the intro even says that) It's a dictionary and is not meant to replace studying or reading the writings of the Church fathers in context. It's great for trying to find where a doctrine can be found in their writings, that way you don't have to comb through 200 pages of Origen to find something he wrote about the Holy Spirit, but you do have to read the section he wrote about the Holy Spirit, or whatever else.
Basically what I'm saying is appearances can be deceiving in the Church fathers. And they weren't infallible and some of them DID get it wrong sometimes. But as far as giving you a specific answer, I certainly can't answer.....but maybe someone else here can.
But yes, I know and have that book, and it is good...just remember to resist "proof texting" the fathers, and it's an awesome resource.
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left coast mystic
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| Joined: | Sat May 10th, 2008 |
| Location: | La Honda, California USA |
| Posts: | 167 |
| First Name: | Marcee | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | nondenominational charismatic, Presbyterian, long-time lover of the RCC |
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Posted: Sun Aug 17th, 2008 05:54 pm |
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Thanks all -
I knew it didn't square with scripture, but couldn't figure out why a church father would have said it. I'm hoping that the book I got, edited by David Bercot and recommended by somebody in a post in this forum, doesn't have too many "zingers" in it like that one. It is actually a summary or index of a multi-volume set called The Ante-Nicene Fathers, so presumably the full set would clarify things.
Marcee
____________________
Godliness with contentment is great gain. (1 Tim. 6:6)
In returning and rest you shall be saved; in quietness and trust shall be your strength. (Isa. 30:15)
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CajunRick
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Posted: Tue Aug 19th, 2008 01:09 pm |
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left coast mystic wrote: "We speak of Paradise, the place of divine bliss appointed to receive the spirits of the saints. There, the saints are cut off from the knowledge of this world by that fiery zone, as by a sort of enclosure". Tertullian
Regarding this particular quote, it is my understanding that we do indeed believe that the saints are cut off from anything but the Beatific Vision. After all, if you could literally see God, would you turn your eyes away?
However, by God's choice and grace, God reveals to the saints that which God wishes to reveal. So the Church Triumphant is made aware of the trials of the Church Militant and the needs of the Church Suffering so that their prayers may be efficaciously applied where needed.
So the quote from Tertullian is technically correct, but leaves out the importance of Divine Revelation in the activities of the saints.
Also, when we study the Fathers, we have to remember that they are not infallible. It is not the teaching of a single Father that verifies doctrine, but the unanimous or near unanimous beliefs of all of the Fathers. Where one deviates significantly from the others, his teaching is simply discounted. This is consistent with our recent discussion on papal infallibility. Infallible statements by the pope stand on the entire history of the Church. If pope should ever claim infallibility for something that deviates from the prior teaching of the Church, the charism of infallibility would not apply. That's why papal statements (and conciliar writings, for that matter) are always so heavily footnoted. That's also why the Holy Spirit has never allowed such a statement to be made under a claim of infallibility.
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