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DrSharkey
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| Joined: | Wed Aug 22nd, 2007 |
| Location: | Jackson, Tennessee USA |
| Posts: | 38 |
| First Name: | John | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Agnostic, Southern Baptist (sorta), church of Christ, looking Romeward |
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Posted: Thu Aug 14th, 2008 04:13 am |
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| I am finding that I have more appreciation for the Communion of Saints and don't have any personal problems believing this. However, are there any scriptural references to this idea,also any references in particular to the praying to saints.
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http://sharkeysworld.blogspot.com/
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DrSharkey
Member
| Joined: | Wed Aug 22nd, 2007 |
| Location: | Jackson, Tennessee USA |
| Posts: | 38 |
| First Name: | John | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Agnostic, Southern Baptist (sorta), church of Christ, looking Romeward |
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Posted: Thu Aug 14th, 2008 04:15 am |
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| Maybe this should be put under the "mary and the saints" catagory. I looked, and promise I didn't see that topic until I had finalized my post!
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http://sharkeysworld.blogspot.com/
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setapart
Member
| Joined: | Sat Jan 13th, 2007 |
| Location: | Austin, Texas USA |
| Posts: | 269 |
| First Name: | Bill | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Born Catholic, Non-Denominational Charismatic, Catholic |
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Posted: Thu Aug 14th, 2008 05:27 am |
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Here are a few Scripture verses that I find helpful to me:
And after six days Jesus took with him Peter and James, and John his brother, and led them up a high mountain by themselves. And he was transfigured before them, and his face shone like the sun, and his clothes became white as light. And behold, there appeared to them Moses and Elijah, talking with him.
(Mat 17:1-3)
And as for the dead being raised, have you not read in the book of Moses, in the passage about the bush, how God spoke to him, saying, 'I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob'? He is not God of the dead, but of the living. You are quite wrong."
(Mar 12:26-27)
And he said to her, "What do you want?" She said to him, "Say that these two sons of mine are to sit, one at your right hand and one at your left, in your kingdom." Jesus answered, "You do not know what you are asking. Are you able to drink the cup that I am to drink?" They said to him, "We are able." He said to them, "You will drink my cup, but to sit at my right hand and at my left is not mine to grant, but it is for those for whom it has been prepared by my Father."
(Mat 20:21-23)
For you have not come to what may be touched, a blazing fire and darkness and gloom and a tempest and the sound of a trumpet and a voice whose words made the hearers beg that no further messages be spoken to them. For they could not endure the order that was given, "If even a beast touches the mountain, it shall be stoned." Indeed, so terrifying was the sight that Moses said, "I tremble with fear." But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to innumerable angels in festal gathering, and to the assembly of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect,
(Heb 12:18-23)
But to the rest of you in Thyatira, who do not hold this teaching, who have not learned what some call the deep things of Satan, to you I say, I do not lay on you any other burden. Only hold fast what you have until I come. The one who conquers and who keeps my works until the end, to him I will give authority over the nations, and he will rule them with a rod of iron, as when earthen pots are broken in pieces, even as I myself have received authority from my Father. And I will give him the morning star.
(Rev 2:24-28)
I am coming soon. Hold fast what you have, so that no one may seize your crown. The one who conquers, I will make him a pillar in the temple of my God. Never shall he go out of it, and I will write on him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem, which comes down from my God out of heaven, and my own new name.
(Rev 3:11-12)
Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and eat with him, and he with me. The one who conquers, I will grant him to sit with me on my throne, as I also conquered and sat down with my Father on his throne.
(Rev 3:20-21)
Then God's temple in heaven was opened, and the ark of his covenant was seen within his temple. There were flashes of lightning, rumblings, peals of thunder, an earthquake, and heavy hail. And a great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars. She was pregnant and was crying out in birth pains and the agony of giving birth. And another sign appeared in heaven: behold, a great red dragon, with seven heads and ten horns, and on his heads seven diadems. His tail swept down a third of the stars of heaven and cast them to the earth. And the dragon stood before the woman who was about to give birth, so that when she bore her child he might devour it. She gave birth to a male child, one who is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron, but her child was caught up to God and to his throne,
(Rev 11:19 - 12:1-5)
The above are verses that demonstrate the concept of ruling and reigning in heaven. The main point of contention between Protestants and Catholics is the timing of the kingdom rule in heaven and weather or not those in heaven know or even are concerned about what goes on here on earth. Are they essentially cut off from us or are they conerned about what goes on here.
If they care are they capable of hearing us and interceding for us on on our behalf?
And all these, though commended through their faith, did not receive what was promised, since God had provided something better for us, that apart from us they should not be made perfect.
(Heb 11:39-40)
Therefore, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us also lay aside every weight, and sin which clings so closely, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us,
(Heb 12:1)
Just so, I tell you, there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who need no repentance.
(Luk 15:7)
The above are scripture references that depending upon one's theological viewpoint will either be explained away or used to support the doctrine of the Communion of Saints.
Protestants accept only the Bible (supposedly as I will explain below) while Catholics accept the Bible and Tradition.
As I tried in the past to defend sola scriptura, I in all honesty could not defend it in light of the Creeds and confessionals of various denominations as exampled below:
Try being a Lutheran pastor while denying the Book of Concord; try being an Assembly of God pastor while denying the pre-millenial rapture or being previously married; try being a Southern Baptist pastor that speaks in tongues and prophecies in church assemblies; try telling a pentacostal that you are saved even though you don't speak in tongues while upholding the doctrine of trinity. Try being a Church of Christ worship leader while you sing your hymns playing an electric guitar in church. Try leading a congregation of a seeker friendly church while wearing priestly vestments.
So the way I look at it Tradition is a reality especially in Protestant and non-denominational churches.
Much of the Evangelical version of Catholic church history is received as "Bible Truth". While the lack of a well balanced Protestant church history that tells the "whole story" is simply ignored.
Catholics are accused of being ignorant while many Protestants are ignorant of anything outside "pure Bible" historical events.
Many non-denominational "new testament" churches claim to be formed after the "pure Bible model" of the 1st century church while giving no relevance to how the church formed and grown as the Apostles handed down the teachings of the Church. This is because the "Bible Alone" is the only reference that they have. (By the way I have seen many through personal experience of these types of home churches fall apart within just a couple of years existance.
I know that I went far beyond the original question concerning the Communion of Saints but it cannot be fully explained without an understanding of what the CC teaches and how many of us former lapsed Catholics/ Protestant Christians came to accept the CC positions on these teachings.
May God bless you in your pilgrimage.
Bill
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But for you who fear my name, the Sun of Righteousness will rise with healing in his wings. And you will go free, leaping with joy like calves let out to pasture. Mal 4:2
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