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Darryl Member

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Posted: Wed Aug 13th, 2008 06:23 pm |
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Hi all,
I would have posted this under the 'Mary and the Saints' category but it is giving me an error message. I have a short question today.
It seems that the Cathecism is Christ centered, and the mass is Christ centered, but it seems that Catholics are sometimes Mary centered.
What exactly makes veneration different from worship? I know we can pray to the saints to ask them to pray for us, but what about when people say things like this to Mary, "Mary I give you my life, my all, etc." I've seen it on EWTN. This sounds like worship. I still believe the doctrines about Mary, but I am having trouble with the place she is given. Are we taking away from Christ?
I read an artice yesteday by former nun Mary-Ann Collins. You can read in by following this link:
http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/False%20Religions/Roman%20Catholicism/mary_worship_a_study.htm
Why didn't the pope cry out to Jesus? I respect JPII and his teachings, I am just wondering.
God Bless,
Darryl.
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mrsbmoo Member

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Posted: Wed Aug 13th, 2008 11:10 pm |
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I think veneration is more like you would feel like about a hero or mentor. You think they are so much smarter, cooler and more successful than you. You wish you could be more like them. I wish I had Mary's trust in God and inner peace. I talk to her about the trials of parenting and being a woman. I think some of the devotion you are describing is meant to be saying, Mary, you are so much more holy than me, please lead me to Jesus. I agree it doesn't always sound that way but if they are putting Mary before Jesus, they are not supported by the church. People often fall short of the goal.
I have heard of the former nun before, she has a real grudge against the Catholic church and takes everything the church does in a negatvie way. Take her opinions in that light.
____________________ Becky
Wife of Michael(called Moo) and stay at home mom to 5 daughters between 13 months and 17
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kersca Member
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| First Name: | Adam | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Lutheran-Catholic |
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Posted: Thu Aug 14th, 2008 01:21 am |
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Darryl,
You mention the MaryAnn Collins link and I gave it a read. I am familiar with her sight and have even had friendly dialogues with her viua e-mail. That being said... I am going to lay some criticism here about the afforementioned article:
She says the last person executed in the Spanish Inquisition received his punishment for substituting "praise be to God" for "Ave Maria". In truth, Cayetano Ripoli was indeed a schoolteacher who renounced Catholicism for deism and was hanged. As far as her assertions, they may be true but his heresy was unrelated. Of course, I am not justifying the killing of heretics.
She mentions the alleged apparitions in lipa. She says all the people who investigated the apparitions were forced to sign a verdict and that they later confessed this on their deathbeds. Read her citation, she confesses that her citation " fails to mention the forceful Church politics involved". Where does she get this information? It may be true, but if it is we cannot deduce this from her citatation.
MaryAnn makes some reasonable arguements afterward. As a matter of fact, I had heard every one of them as a Lutheran growing up. They made sense and I believed them. I have read volumes on the subject of Mary. I have read many critiques of Catholic Marian doctrines. To tell the truth, Mary was one of my biggest hurdles when entering the Church. So what has changed? At some point all of the other pieces fell into place. I became convinced that the Catholic Church was Christ's creation, not man's. So, I prayed on the "Mary stuff". Now, Mary comes easy to me. I even pray the rosary. I have become closer to Christ through praying the rosary and meditating on the mysteres than ever before.
So, as far as MaryAnn, if you read her do so cautiously. She has a bias and her interpretation of things is seen through that bias. She has probably heard most of the apologetics from both sides and goes her way while we go ours. I guess the key is to evaluate all of these things with an open heart and mind. Pray about it. Read things to find information not to use it as a proof to confirm your beliefs. Read from both sources.
God Bless,
Adam
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Pani Rose Member
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Posted: Thu Aug 14th, 2008 01:35 am |
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Some people have a really hard time cutting the aprons strings. Kind of like being a 'mommas boy', or a married couple when a mother-in-law is allowed to rule over the young couple.
That is not at all what the Most Holy Theotokos asks of us. Our Lady calls us to stand along side her, not hide behind her, sometimes people never get to that point. Sometimes they are stuck and never cut that apron string.
For some reason, it seems to me, that a lot of people are 'afraid' to approach Jesus. It doesn't make a bit of sence to me, but it happens. She and the Holy Spirit gave life to Christ - to me, it seems they would be drawn more to the Holy Spirit, there again there seems to be timidity. I guess they think it is easier to talk to Momma.
There is only one intercessor between God and man - that is Jesus Chrsit! So like the prayer below, which is one of the Angelic Salutations of the Eastern Church, put things in right perspective...
O glorious and Ever-Virgin Mary, Mother of Christ our God, receive our prayers and carry them to your Son and our God, that He, because of your intercession many enlighten and save our souls.
The Byzantine form of the Hail Mary is...
Hail, Mother of God, Virgin Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with you. Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb; for you gave birth go Christ, the Savior and Redeemer of our souls.
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setapart Member

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Posted: Thu Aug 14th, 2008 03:19 am |
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Daryl,
Thank you for the respectful way that you asked your questions in light of the concerns that you have concerning Marian devotion.
I, too, have questioned and struggled with this element of Catholic devotional life. Then I studied the lives of those who were strong Catholics and who include Marian devotions in their prayer and devotional life. One of these is St. Eliabeth Ann Seton who was a convert to the CC from the Episcopal Church. She endured the death of her Father, then husband and was left to raising 5 children on her own. Upon her conversion to the CC she was disowned by her in-laws (except one). After she arrived at Emmitsburg, MD where she devoted her life to teaching and helping the poor, all the while raisng her children. She then endured the death of two of her daughters and her beloved sister-in-law. In her heartache and pain she committed ALL to God. I have read some of her writings from her journals. There is no doubt that her commitment to Jesus was with ALL of her mind, soul, heart, and strength. Including devotion to the Blessed Virgin Mary did not dimish her love for God.
It is the same for many others. They did not just write theological works concering love for God, they expressed it in their lives as St. Paul describes in his letter to the Philippians. I found this amazing.
When I do read criticisms concerning Marian devotions from non or ex-Catholics I find myself questioning certain of the practices.
When I read that Marian devotions is goddess worship and there are comparisons to cultic worship that include goddess worship I can also point to many of the Christian traditions that are celebrated by most all Christians such as Christmas and Easter. You will find that these celebrations were pagan in their origin. What has happened is that they were redeemed and "Christianized" as representing Christian events.
There are also many false expressions of Jesus today but does that make the true Jesus a cultic figure?
God established a Kingdom. We as Americans are not very good at looking at government as other than a democracy.
If we as Christians here on earth are:
raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,
(Eph 2:6)
What makes it so hard to believe that once we are glorified - Romans 8:30 - we suddenly lose our place in heaven, this is especailly so when the inheritance is fully accomplished without the clay vessels that we all are while on this earth.
Jesus also said that the Father appoints those who will sit on His right hand and left -
He said to them, "You will drink my cup, but to sit at my right hand and at my left is not mine to grant, but it is for those for whom it has been prepared by my Father."
(Mat 20:23)
Many Christians are convinced that their idea of heaven as it exists right now is full of "dead saints" who are irrelevant to us now. There is no such thing as power or authority being available to the heavenly saints, but there are mega-churches who proclaim that we posses this power ourselves now in this life.
What the Catholic Church teaches is that the Kingdom of God consists of those called to be saints here on earth and those who have recieved their inheritance in heaven and are victorious.
Jesus over and over in the letters to the churches in Revelation would grant power, authority and new names for those who have overcome. The CC beleives that they are granted these crowns in this present age after all Jesus established His Kingdom while He walked this earth. We are not waiting for a 1000 year millenium kingdom we are in that Kingdom right now.
Aside from the theological discussion, I am convinced from the "real life" fruit of the Holy Spirit in the lives of devout Catholics that I can only dream of ever emulating. Many of these have testified that Mary did not take away their love for Jesus. So the big question to ask is - how in the world can these people live such holy lives completely devoted to Lord Jesus Christ be "idol worshippers"?
____________________ But for you who fear my name, the Sun of Righteousness will rise with healing in his wings. And you will go free, leaping with joy like calves let out to pasture. Mal 4:2
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Darryl Member

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Posted: Thu Aug 14th, 2008 06:48 am |
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Hi all,
Thank you for your replies. It seems that some protestants who leave the Catholic church with full knowledge of the church they are leaving, can approach their apologetics with a real 'chip on their shoulder'. I think that came through with Mary Ann Collins. I think one can present apologetics in 2 ways in love, or in a type of spite. I will need to remember to approach my protestant brothers and sisters in truth and love.
Becky,
I hear your view on veneration. I like it. Currently I have asked the saints to help me in areas that I think they had(have?) experience in. I need to learn this art which is sometimes tricky. I find myself talking to them then I throw in some praise(Like "I praise you) then I remember that I am talking to a saint so I say, "I mean I praise you God." I have spent my whole Christian life praying to Christ, I will have to learn this not only as a doctrine, but also as a habit.
Adam,
I am with you on Mary being a hurdle. I do not have a problem with the Rosary, as long as Christ is the main meditation. If Mary is prayed to in the rosary it is almost always in view of the sword that will pierce her own heart. The Catholic church has the authority. (I am listening to the Scott Hahn CD's on Sola Scriptura right now, so I am not only believe the authority of the church, it is beginning to become part of my core.)
Rose,
Thanks for introducing me to the forms of the Hail Mary. Perhaps I will try to say the rosary with this in mind. I am wondering if the pendulum effect happens in the Catholic church. Was there a time where people ignored Mary, and now the pendulum has swung the other way?
Bill,
I need to do more study of those who held strong Marian devotion - like JPII. However, if I read any more I will not get any sleep, will incur the wrath of my good wife. 
I will remember your reasoning about Christmas, Easter having pagan origins and how that applies to the Queen of Heaven argument. I wil be asked! Father Corapi also eluded to her majesty, and the fact that she has a cresent under her feet in Revelation 12. (Sounds like a Queen to me.)
Could you restate what you are saying on Romans 8:30? I think is got lost in translation from you to me.
God bless you all again,
Something humourous for you:
We went to mass today in the cities main Bascilica. It was about 3/4 full. It was my turn to take out the kids if they fussed. We were the only family there, where are all the fruitful Catholics? Anyways, my kids were good as gold until the priest was praying for the elements to be changed. Then my four year old blew a gasket(bad temper) because her sister colored on her sheet. No one said anything though. They knew we were trying hard to keep the kids quiet. A man gave my wife a few 'Infant Jesus' tract devotionals after mass. I am going to teach my kids to be quiet, but Jesus also wants them in church. There is nothing as humbling as a small child - "Your Child" having a temper in the worst possible place. ha ha.
Darryl.
Adam,
I am with you on the authority issue. The authority issue is settled for me, so there is no turning back unless God makes it abudantly clear to me that I am in error, but as of yet that has not happened, but much the opposite.
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Pani Rose Member
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Posted: Thu Aug 14th, 2008 08:29 am |
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I always loved this...
"The Book [the Protoevangelium] of James [records] that the brethren of Jesus were sons of Joseph by a former wife, whom he married before Mary. Now those who say so wish to preserve the honor of Mary in virginity to the end, so that body of hers which was appointed to minister to the Word . . . might not know intercourse with a man after the Holy Spirit came into her and the power from on high overshadowed her. And I think it in harmony with reason that Jesus was the firstfruit among men of the purity which consists in [perpetual] chastity, and Mary was among women. For it were not pious to ascribe to any other than to her the firstfruit of virginity" (Commentary on Matthew 2:17 [A.D. 248]). Origen
'so that body of hers which was appointed to minister to the Word'
Basically that was her job in life - life is triumphant and militant - she left the militant life - falling asleep, assumed into heaven by her Son.
This week we have the Epitaphial Service and Divine Liturgy for the Dormition of the Most Holy Theotokos - it is a wonderful thing.

an Icon of the Dormition of the Most Holy Theotokos
(Mother of God)
The feast is known under many names. In the Orthodox Church, it is called the Dormition, the "sleeping" or "falling asleep," of the Great Theotokos - "Mother of God." In the Roman Catholic church, the feast is known under the name of the Assumption of the Blessed Virgin. Other names were once current, such as: Transitus - the Passing, Deposition - the Placing in the Graves, Pausatio - Resting, Nativity (in heaven), and several others. Under whatever title it may have been known, the Dormition is the most ancient and most solemn feast of the Theotokos. It actually commemorates two events:
- the happy death of the Mother of God and
- the assumption of her body into heaven.
This double aspect is evident in the Divine Liturgy, which commemorates both "the glorious asleep of the Mother of Life" and "her noble assumption." One of the Troparia of Vespers states: "O marvelous wonder! The fount of life has been laid in the grave, and the tomb has become a ladder leading to heaven." Another hymn declares: "How strange are your mysteries, O undefiled Virgin, for you did appear as a throne for the highest and today are translated from earth to heaven."
The entire Divine Liturgy in poetic from describes this double aspect, but the assumption theme itself strikes the stronger note: "Today heaven opens its bosom to receive her who gave birth to Him Whom the universe cannot contain" (Stichera for Litija). The first Kathisma of matins asks: "Tell forth, O David, what is this present feast? He said: verily, she whom I praised in the Psalms as daughter, Mother of God as Virgin, has been taken by Christ ... to the distant mansions." Saint John Damascene writes in his Canon: "... Christ has taken her to the most worthy and divine abode ..."
The Dormition of the Most Holy Theotokos is often compared to the Nativity, since Mary through her death was born in heaven. "As for you birth-giving, it was death without corruption" (third Kathisma of Matins). Cosmos the Anchorite, in the ninth ode of Matins, repeats the same idea: "In you, O spotless Virgin, the laws of nature were suspended; for your virginity was preserved in your childbearing, and life is joined with your death. You, O Mother of God remain a Virgin after childbirth and after death are still alive." Similarly in the antiphons of the Holy and Divine Liturgy the mystic birth of Mary is mentioned.
The Dormition in all probability is the earliest of the Marian feasts. It probably originated in the pilgrimages to the place honoured as her tomb. The Monks of Palestine are considered the first to celebrate this feast. In Ephesus, it had been kept as early as the first century. Pope Gelasius I (496 A. D.) mentioned it as being "very old" in one of his letters. The feast is also mentioned in the sermons of Saint Andrew of Crete, Saint John of Damascus (Damascene), Saint Modestus of Jerusalem, and others. It can be safely said that in the sixth century the feast had spread to the entire church.
Both in Palestine and at Rome, August 15 was kept as the day of Mary's death. In Egypt and Arabia, however, it was celebrated in January. In the Greek Church, some kept this feast in January in agreement with the monks of Egypt; others kept it in August after the custom of Palestine. In the sixth century, the Emperor Maurice established the date throughout the Byzantine Empire on August 15.
Sacred Scripture gives no account of the death of the Mother of God. As to the day, the year, and the manner of her death, nothing certain is known. Only centuries later do we find statements placing its date anywhere between three and fifteen years after Christ's ascension. As for the place, two cities claim the site: Jerusalem and Ephesus. Common consent has always favoured Jerusalem, as it does now. The Ephesus tradition is based on a sermon of Saint Cyril of Alexandria, who, at the time of the Council of Ephesus, (431 A. D.) spoke in the local church which was dedicated to the Mother of God. Since the churches of antiquity ware almost invariably erected over the tomb of some saint or martyr, it can be argued that many believed that Mary had been buried in that place.
The Jerusalem tradition, on the other hand, is founded largely on the apocryphal writings. Saint John of Damascus, sometimes known as the Doctor of Assumption, relates, although with hesitation and reserve, an interesting narrative told by an otherwise unknown Euthymius. According to this informant, Pulcheria, wife of the Emperor Marcian (450-457 A. D.), had erected a church in honour of the Mother of God in the suburb of Constantinople called Blachernae, to which she wished to transfer Mary's earthly remains. With this in view, she turned to Bishop Juvenal of Jerusalem, but he informed her that the body of the Mother of God was not found in Jerusalem. She (the Theotokos) had been buried in the Garden of Gethsemane in the presence of the Apostles, except Thomas, who was late for the burial. In order that he too might venerate to body of the Mother of God, the tomb was opened; but nothing was found except the linen winding clothes which gave forth a fragrant perfume. Whereupon the Apostles concluded that our Lord had taken up into heaven the body which had bore Him.
The feast of the Dormition has a pre-festive period of one day, and post-festive of eight days. The Holy Church prepares Herself with two-week period of fasting for the worthy observance of the feast. This was already mentioned in the ninth century by Pope Nicholas in a letter to the Bulgarians.
taken from the archives of Saint Barbara Church
From the Tradition of the Church By Fr. Thomas Hopko Following the day of Pentecost, the Theotokos remained in the city of Jerusalem, comforting the infant Christian community. She was living in the house of the beloved Apostle John, later the Evangelist. At the time of her death (tradition states she was in her early fifties) many of the Apostles were scattered throughout the world preaching the Gospel. All but Thomas were miraculously brought to the Virgin aloft on clouds.
As they stood around her bedside, she commended her spirit to the Lord and Jesus descended from Heaven, taking up her soul in His arms. The Apostles sang the funeral hymns in her honor and carried her body to a tomb in Cedron near Gethsemane. When a Jewish man tried to interrupt their solemn procession, an angel of the Lord came and punished him by cutting off his hands, which were later healed.
The Apostle Thomas arrived on the third day and wished to see the Virgin for the last time. They discovered an empty tomb. Church tradition relates that the Theotokos was resurrected bodily and taken to heaven, the same reward that awaits all the righteous on the Last Day.
Of her Nativity - which in many ways are considered the same - go figure 
http://www.melkite.org/Mediation4.html
http://www.byzantines.net/SaintAthanasius/tract58.htm
This paragraph is refering to the Theotokos as “Platytera” (She who is more spacious than the heavens).
The entire Divine Liturgy in poetic from describes this double aspect, but the assumption theme itself strikes the stronger note: "Today heaven opens its bosom to receive her who gave birth to Him Whom the universe cannot contain" (Stichera for Litija). The first Kathisma of matins asks: "Tell forth, O David, what is this present feast? He said: verily, she whom I praised in the Psalms as daughter, Mother of God as Virgin, has been taken by Christ ... to the distant mansions." Saint John Damascene writes in his Canon: "... Christ has taken her to the most worthy and divine abode ..."
 She has her hands outstretched to us, asking us to let Christ be as fullly formed in us as He is in her. See his face - it is not that of a baby, but an adult, because he was born with the wisdom of the ages.
Love is Born Today by Deacon Keith Fornier
http://www.catholic.org/international/international_story.php?id=26265
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David W. Emery Network Helper
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Posted: Thu Aug 14th, 2008 12:54 pm |
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I wanted to make special note of the following:
From Pani Rose’s citation of the Tradition of the Church by Fr. Thomas Hopko:
Church tradition relates that the Theotokos was resurrected bodily and taken to heaven, the same reward that awaits all the righteous on the Last Day.
In other words, nothing happened to the Blessed Virgin Mary that is not biblically prescribed for all those saved in the Lord. As the Catechism of the Catholic Church tells us concerning Christ’s resurrection: “658 Christ, ‘the first-born from the dead’ (Col 1:18), is the principle of our own resurrection, even now by the justification of our souls (cf. Rom 6:4), and one day by the new life he will impart to our bodies (cf. Rom 8:11).”
The great feast we celebrate tomorrow in the Catholic Church is in honor of the common Christian doctrine of the resurrection of the dead as applied specifically to Mary, the mother of Jesus Christ.
David
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Pani Rose Member
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Posted: Thu Aug 14th, 2008 03:25 pm |
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Yes, it was - as is for us - a falling asleep.
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NorthStar Member
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Posted: Thu Aug 14th, 2008 06:04 pm |
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Hi Darryl,
I'm not an apologist, but let me tell my experience with the Theotokos and how she has affected me. When I was converting from Evangelical to Orthodox, I accepted all the official doctrines of the Virgin Mary, but didn't really "live them" if that makes any sense. It took me quite a few years to ask her in my private prayers to pray for me. But as time went by and I was more fully integrated into the life of the Church, I slowly began to change. In Orthodoxy we have a prayer, "Most Holy Theotokos save us." Now due to protestant sensitivities some Church's deliberately mistranslate it as "Interceed for us", but the Greek is quite specific, I peragia Theotoke soson imas", SAVE US. Now I knew the theology that she's not "saving us" in the same way that Jesus saves us by His life, death and Resurrection. But I didn't quite "get" it, in my heart until this past year. (I've been Orthodox for 5 years now)....her intercessions are different than all the other saints because she is the mother of Jesus. She has an absolutely special relationship to Jesus, that no other saint can ever have. He is her Savior, but she is His mother. Just think about that for a minute? How special a relationship a mother/child relationship is. Now imagine a mother, giving birth to God incarnate? I mean, the bond is so unique and so unbreakable, that.....it really wants to make me cry almost.
I'm reading "The World's First Love" by Archbishop fulton Sheen right now, I highly recommend it. It might help you to understand a little better, as he is very clear and lucid in his writing. (much more than I can be) But we CAN trust in her, because she is not just the Mother of Jesus, but our mother...not in a physical way, but she is our spiritual mother. Believe it or not, Jesus was a real human, and did learn stuff from his mother. If she can teach Jesus, she certainly can teach us.
For me personally all I can say is, this past year I've grown closer to Mary....I now LOVE her because she gives me an example, and because I know she cares, because if she didn't, she could have said no at the Annunciation. Is she a god? no, of course not. Can she save us by her own power? No of course not. But we can trust in her to interceed for us, and her intercessions are somehow different than all the other saints...remember Jesus didn't want to turn the water into wine, but He listened to His mother, like a good son. Again her relationship with Jesus shows me a lot about myself. And in fact, I never see her as apart from Jesus. In fact, in Orthodoxy, it is forbidden to portray Mary in an icon without Jesus present in some form. (usually as an infant but not always) So there is no delusion that she does it alone, but it's just somehow different.
Darryl wrote:
I hear your view on veneration. I like it. Currently I have asked the saints to help me in areas that I think they had(have?) experience in. I need to learn this art which is sometimes tricky. I find myself talking to them then I throw in some praise(Like "I praise you) then I remember that I am talking to a saint so I say, "I mean I praise you God." I have spent my whole Christian life praying to Christ, I will have to learn this not only as a doctrine, but also as a habit.
I don't think there is anything wrong with "praising" the saints, or Mary. Praise is different than worship. At least the Eastern Churches seperate the 2 things. We have hymns that begin, "we praise you virgin theotokos", so the East distinguishes between praise and worship. I'm sure Rome does as well. Worship is something due to God alone as you know, but praise is, well, praise. I've received praise from people in my life, though I'm not sure why....but I certainly dont think they are worshipping me. (God I hope not...LOL!) I know in the Protestant world "praise and worship" are sort of like one thing, but not in the RCC or Orthodoxy.
I am with you on Mary being a hurdle. I do not have a problem with the Rosary, as long as Christ is the main meditation.
Remember, I don't know of any Orthodox, or Catholic who looks at Mary "alone"...they always see her in the light of Christ. As Fulton Sheen writes in the book I mentioned, she is the moon, which reflects the light of the sun. (Christ) No one in the historical Churches views Mary without the light of Christ. So it's impossible to pray the Rosary and NOT think of Christ.
Thanks for introducing me to the forms of the Hail Mary. Perhaps I will try to say the rosary with this in mind. I am wondering if the pendulum effect happens in the Catholic church. Was there a time where people ignored Mary, and now the pendulum has swung the other way?
No, there never was a time when Mary wasn't venerated. The oldest Christian feast other than Pascha is the Dormition (Assumption) of the Theotokos. I've heard many historians say that, and I'm sure it can be found in the Church fathers. (though I've never personally done so) The only time Mary was downplayed in the Church was really AFTER Martin Luther (who accepted all the historic Marian doctrines)
Now have there been times in Church history that people may have been over zealous in regards to Mary? As an arm chair historian, I'd say YES, but this was always in opposition to either the official teaching of the Church, or the Apostolic witness. (one example I mean would be the Byzantines claiming Mary fought with a sword in a battle to protect Constantinople...lol!) But that was never a teaching of the Church in any way.
We went to mass today in the cities main Bascilica. It was about 3/4 full. It was my turn to take out the kids if they fussed. We were the only family there, where are all the fruitful Catholics? Anyways, my kids were good as gold until the priest was praying for the elements to be changed. Then my four year old blew a gasket(bad temper) because her sister colored on her sheet. No one said anything though. They knew we were trying hard to keep the kids quiet. A man gave my wife a few 'Infant Jesus' tract devotionals after mass. I am going to teach my kids to be quiet, but Jesus also wants them in church. There is nothing as humbling as a small child - "Your Child" having a temper in the worst possible place. ha ha.
You could always come and visit an Orthodox Church, and your's won't be the only screaming kids, you'll fit right in...LOL!
Last edited on Thu Aug 14th, 2008 06:06 pm by NorthStar
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tedjenczewski Member
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| First Name: | Ted | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Catholic, Presbyterian, revert Catholic |
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Posted: Thu Aug 14th, 2008 06:40 pm |
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| I often think, particularly when observing Marian devotions in 2nd and 3rd world countries, that much of what goes on is "folk piety" that is not actually in conformity with the teaching of the Church. That is: many of the faithful are VERY POORLY catechised ,and when not properly shepherded they easily slip into error in both belief and practice. This kind of Marian devotion is indirectly promoted by some of the Marian prayers authorized by the church, which when read with out a discerning concience, can easily be mis-understood as placing Mary on the level of Jesus, that is: she is God.
____________________ "...the church of the living God, the pillar and bulwark of the truth." 1Tim 3, 15
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brian Member
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| First Name: | brian | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | methodist, evangelical, anglican, catholic |
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Posted: Thu Aug 14th, 2008 07:53 pm |
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I have also, Darryl, made similar observations along the way. For me, it was a matrer more of understanding context and language. Some words that helped were, latria, dulia, and hyperdulia. Latria is the worship due to God alone. dulia is more veneration or honor that we give to saints or other people or things (cross, icons etc) we admire that are Holy. Betwen the two is hyperdulia (I think these are Greek terms) which is sort of a less than worship but higher than normal human adoration that we can give to Mary for her unique role in our salvation and great intimacy with the Holy Spirit and relationship to our Savior.
Now what troubles you is more the language things are used in. I still have trouble with some of these prayers and simply say them, or make it clear in my heart how I mean them. Sometimes I still equate prause with worship as well. But people need to remember how passionately we admire one another or spouses or family or celebrities or heroes. This is not idolatry (though I suppose it could get tot hat point if out of balance) but rather God given affection and love to bind us together. I realized that people who object to praising the Virgin Mary often would say remarkable things about other religious speakers or people. We are allowed to love Mary as our very own Mother. What a privilege. And what good son (in the ideal mother son relationship, I know not all human relationships are perfect) would only passively or disinterestedly love his mother? No. We love outr mothers with great sincerity and admiration (again assuming they were good mothers which I am lucky to have).
So, when you read phrases in prayers that eem a bit much to you, either simply you are not comfortable yet with this kind of poetic language or honor of a creature that is not God. Or you need to interpret it with the mind of the church. Just as if you lent me 10,000 dollars so I would not get kicked out of my home, I would say, you really saved me. etc. We say to Mary, save us, help us. We offer ourselves to your protection. We realize that it is through her prayers and the graces given to her by God, but he same way when you give me the 10,000 dollars I thank you (though your generosity is also made possible by grace) when Mary gains favors for us, we thank her and ask her for these favors thoguh we know they stem from God. Still in a unique way she is a source from which they flow just as you were with the 10,000 dollars.
Also, honoring Mary is also acknowledging God for God created Mary and has blessed her with many amazing gifts and responsibilities. She has also cooperated, but ultimately we honor God for the beauty and goodness found in her come from His grace and holiness.
I was troubled as ell by things like consecration of one's self to Mary, or being her slave etc.. But it helped so much (and I could add a link if it helps) to read some of the explanations of what this means. That consecration to Mary is a short way of saying consecration to Jesus through Mary. That we consecrate something or a care to God, through Mary, knowing that she more perfctly understands how to pray for us or the situation and adds her charity and virtuewhich is pleasing to God. That God is honored to hear the prayers of his mother and that she loves to come to our aid. We do not offer anything tp Mary for the purpose of it ending there. We offer to her that she will interceed for us. Devotion to Mary is not an end, but a means to an end. All that is offered to her, is a way of asking her to polish it up and more perfectly offer it to Jesus than what we are capable of. This does not mean that we have to pray in this fashion or offer anything to Mary. But it is an extra help available help to us.
I used to think as an evangelical that this was poor thinking and simply a unnecessary link that the cross made obsolete. That we now have direct access to God and this would be a step backward. Now I realize that I can still ask God directly for things, or approach Jesus in intimate ways. But now I can do both. And sometimes it is preferrable to ask Jesus' Mother to be a part of the process and to contribute her wisdom and add her graces to my petitions. So, it is not a matter of needing to do it this way, so much as having an extra source and bond of love. To bind the family together more. That to love Mary more is pleasing to God as it pleases God when the family loves one another. That this devotion to Mary more completes our faith life.
Also, I just let go of some concerns as I grew to se whays that this access to Mary really helped me and favors that seemed to have come from it.
The key for me, was realizing that Mary does not want worship. This would displease her as a humble soul. She longs to bring us closer to Jesus. This is her main goal and the purpose of her earthly life as well. To help us find Jesus. And in a way, to help Jesus find us (hope I am not saying too much there, as it was God's plan and power and but her all important fiat). No other human person who was not also divine did more than her to bring us salvation. For this we are eternally grateful, just as if you were the person that first preached the gospel to me and I had previously been bound to sin I would be so thankful to you and in a sense you would have saved me (in the sense that you brought me the salvation that comes uniquely through Christ). And I think you will l see the apostle Paul use similar language about saving some. Catholciism recognized that salvation flows from the life of Jesus, but the way this salvation is shared and made known is quite a family affair.
If I said anything wrong I hope it will be brought to light, but I hope this helps you. In time and with God's help I think things will make more sense. There are certain dogma that Catholics are asked to accept about her, but each only has to go as far as they are willing in their personal devotion to her and accept handful of instances when the Church liturgically calls on her intercesssion.
Brian
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Darryl Member

| Joined: | Sat Jul 26th, 2008 |
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| First Name: | Darryl | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | United Church of Canada, Alliance, Independant Charismatic, Pentecostal |
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Posted: Thu Aug 14th, 2008 10:02 pm |
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Hello all,
Thank you for your in depth responses. I guess with most of you being converts you have all been in my current place - that you need to know what you know for sure before a life change is made.
I am reading a book by Frank Sheed on the advice of a convert/pastor friend. Sheed encourages us to ascertain our truth on God and other church doctrine on the basis on intellecutualism and not imagination. It is harder work to study, than just to gulp down what others believe as truth. However, if we really believe it intellectually we will not abandon it when the trials of life or challenges to our faith come.
Rose
I have read some apocryphal sources regarding Mary. What does the church teach in regards to these writings. I know that councils were developed to determine which 27 books were going to be in the New Testament, but what authority is given to these 'other' sources. What does the church teach on this?
I definitely need to find a sponsor. There is so much to learn.
(I am going to try copying a pasting so I can bring clarity to what I am talking about.)
From the Tradition of the Church By Fr. Thomas Hopko Following the day of Pentecost, the Theotokos remained in the city of Jerusalem, comforting the infant Christian community. She was living in the house of the beloved Apostle John, later the Evangelist. At the time of her death (tradition states she was in her early fifties) many of the Apostles were scattered throughout the world preaching the Gospel. All but Thomas were miraculously brought to the Virgin aloft on clouds.
David and Rose
How did the virgin die if she was not guilty of original sin? She would not be subject to death? She also does not need atonement because she has no sin to be atoned for.
What is the purpose of icons? I understand they are more than just pictures, but that they are prayers - each stroke.
David I have a suggestion for the forum. Maybe there could be a 'pinned' topic indicating the top 50 books for those looking at converting or newly converted to the Catholic church.
Chuck
I will hopefully get a chance to read, "The Worlds First Love". I am coming closer to Mary which is neat because I am getting closer to Jesus in a mysterious way. My wife and I just watched a cartoon on Fatima. She is struggling a bit. She may join the forum later. Mary does command devotion to Jesus during this apparation.
Ted
I think that God is not please with the worship of statues in other countries like the Phillipines. This is my opinion. If anything moves into the realm of center stage before the Lord God, then one has moved into the area of idolatry. The rosary is Christ centered so there is no worry there.
Brian
The three terms of veneration/worship are helpful. I think I have a handle on this. The veneration due the saints is not demanded by them, but is a our reflection on the honour God has given them. This is why we don't venerate someone if the church has not formally made them a saint? Am I right?
To all
Something is happening in my spirit today. Maybe the spirit knows when the important feast in the church are. I feel closer to Mary. I now have a spiritual mother. Working in the addiction field I have seen lots of men not only with father wounds, but with mother wounds. Mary is the antidote to the mother wound. Hail Mary full of grace.
I feel however that my next stage on my journey to becoming closer to Mary (and Jesus of course) is to go to confession. If I need to do confession since I first got baptized at 13(although I may have to go back further because they believed it was symbollic even though it was in a liturgical church) I will be taking up much of the priests time. I'm wondering if I should go to my local priest or to another one? I have done some horrible stuff. I want to go to confession though as I feel like a great healing will come. It's kind of like doing a step 5 but in the 'right' context.
God Bless you all. Thanks for your indepth answers. I will have to go over them a couple more times. Tell me if you get a chance in how you feast goes tommorow. What you did and how God speaks to you.
God I pray that these children of yours are entirely blessed tommorow at this Marian feast. I ask you to impart wisdom and peace to them, in Jesus name, amen.
Darryl.
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Pani Rose Member
| Joined: | Fri Oct 5th, 2007 |
| Location: | Irondale, Alabama USA |
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| First Name: | Rose | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Ruthenian Byzantine in a Melkite Greek Catholic Parish, raised ... |
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Posted: Thu Aug 14th, 2008 10:33 pm |
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tedjenczewski wrote: I often think, particularly when observing Marian devotions in 2nd and 3rd world countries, that much of what goes on is "folk piety" that is not actually in conformity with the teaching of the Church. That is: many of the faithful are VERY POORLY catechised ,and when not properly shepherded they easily slip into error in both belief and practice. This kind of Marian devotion is indirectly promoted by some of the Marian prayers authorized by the church, which when read with out a discerning concience, can easily be mis-understood as placing Mary on the level of Jesus, that is: she is God. This does happen and it is truly a sad thing, because it is the last thing that our Lady would ever want.
I know too, for myself, it was a hard thing. The Lord brought us into the Church so fast, I just had to say Jesus I trust you, show me in your word, and he did. It was truly amazing. I can say even 28 years later, I am still cautious - becuase I have seen so many who I feel are in an extreme, but I think that their heart is right before God. Like you say it is just being catchcized.
Here too, the Church was very persecuted. It was very dangerous to let anyone know that you were a Catholic - after all it is the Bible Belt - sometimes that could well be taking your life into your own hands to say anything at all of your Catholic faith. With that situation in hand, I think the people drew closer to Blessed Mother for safety and protection.
I can remember the Lord having us speak of the Holy Spirit and some - especially women - thought that was terrible. We had many hard years of battling at prayer meeting. Instead of entering into praise and worship - they would want to pray the rosary. There is nothing wrong with that, but it was not the time and place. Now these same people, some 22 years later, will walk up and say do you remember when you said...? They remember, for the most part I have no idea what the Holy Spirit was saying to them through me at that time.
So I think that is part of our Protestant brothers and sisters coming into the Church. I can remember when people first calling us missionaries - I thought what! - we're not in a foreign land. But, guess what, we were. Now we see the fruits of those 22 years.
I remember Fr. Scanlan - University of Steubenville - when he was arrested for protesting at the abortion clinics in Pittsburgh, saying something like, "well we were all there, Protestant and Catholics alike. Arrested, placed in a big gym, we worked out the schedule for exercise, bathrooms, prayer and teaching. My professors taught classes on Papal Authority and Mary. The Protestant pastors taught classes on the Bible. All the people learned something, and you know what? When we did our daily exercising together, walking around the gym, everyone Catholic and Protestant - prayed the rosary." God sure has a sence of humor doesn't he.
Down here, we have some HUGE paintings of Our Lady of Guadlupe, they take them to the abortion clinics. The Protestants use to go crazy. There was one lady in particular, one that kind of gave us trouble - sold out spirit filled totally devoted to Blessed Mother, always pointing the way to Jesus - she opened the door with the Protestants here. She was/is fearless - the Protestants began to notice they had a lot more trouble at the clinics of she was not there. She is BOLD - not afraid of walking up and saying 'do you know you are going to kill your baby' - point blank. THey see, so many have turned and walked away because she was there. You know what - she brings the Holy Spirit and Blessed Mother with her everytime. Just can't beat that combination. Now two former Episcopal priests are in the Church - their journey began with her. One of them is Jim Pinto with Priests for Life http://www.priestsforlife.org/staff/pinto.htm
I have grown tremendously in love and understanding of Mary's role in Salvation History as they have grown in love and understanging of the actions of the Holy Spirit to bring about Salvation History, partially because of all the struggles I went through to try to understand and the people I had to confront on the way, like the one mentioned above. Too, I think in the East, the perspective is a bit different, which made it easier.
God bless you all!
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Pani Rose Member
| Joined: | Fri Oct 5th, 2007 |
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Posted: Thu Aug 14th, 2008 10:54 pm |
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The word "Dormition" is a Latin word meaning "Falling asleep".
- "And many of those who
sleep in the dust of the ground will awake, these to everlasting life, but the others to disgrace and everlasting contempt. Dan 12:2 - "Our friend Lazarus has fallen
asleep; but I go, that I may awaken him out of sleep." The disciples therefore said to Him, "Lord, if he has fallen asleep, he will recover." Now Jesus had spoken of his death, but they thought that He was speaking of literal sleep. Then Jesus therefore said to them plainly, "Lazarus is dead". Jn 11:11-14 - Ps 90:5 Thou hast swept them away like a flood, they fall
asleep - Mt 9:24 He began to say, "the girl has not died, but is
asleep." And they began laughing at Him. - Mt 27:52 tombs were opened; and many bodies of the saints who had fallen
asleep were raised; - Mk 5:39; Lk 8:52 The child has not died, but is
asleep - Ac 7:60 "Lord, do not hold this sin against them!" And having said this, Stephen fell
asleep. - Ac 13:36 "For David ... fell
asleep, and was laid among his fathers, and underwent decay - 1 Co 15:6,18,20,51 some have fallen
asleep ... those who are asleep, we shall not all sleep, - 1 Th 4:13-15 those who are
asleep ... have fallen asleep in Jesus - 2 Pe 3:4 ever since the fathers fell
asleep
I have got to get off to Church, the Council of Ephasis in 431 defined Mary as Theotokos Mary is Theotokos because her son Jesus is one person who is both God and man, divine and human. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theotokos
Homilies on the Dormition/Assumption
http://www.balamand.edu.lb/theology/Jodorm.htm
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David W. Emery Network Helper
| Joined: | Fri Sep 29th, 2006 |
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Posted: Fri Aug 15th, 2008 04:03 am |
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Hi Darryl. Frank Sheed is good reading.
I have read some apocryphal sources regarding Mary. What does the church teach in regards to these writings.
They are considered to be on the same level as other human sources. Some of them are edifying, many contain historical information, etc. The difference between these and inspired scripture is precisely that: the bible is inspired by the Holy Spirit.
How did the virgin die if she was not guilty of original sin? She would not be subject to death? She also does not need atonement because she has no sin to be atoned for.
There are actually two different traditions concerning the final days on earth of our Lady.
One, the more commonly accepted, has her in Jerusalem and dying a natural death. Some say she would have been about fifty years old, others say sixty, depending on how other known historical events are dated and correlated. The earlier date would correspond better to the attached legend that the apostles, minus Thomas, were assembled around her when she died; they buried her in a tomb at the base of the Mount of Olives. Thomas (you will recall that he was absent also on the day of Jesus’ resurrection) came along three days later, and they showed him the tomb, opening it so he could pay his respects. But they found the tomb much as the women in the gospel story found Jesus’ tomb: the burial wrappings lying there but empty.
The other has her in Ephesus with the Apostle John. Supposedly she was taken up to heaven without dying in somewhat the same manner as Elijah in 2 Kings 2. I have recently stated in another thread why I do not favor the Ephesus tradition.
If Mary did not die, it would be because she was like Eve in the Garden at her conception and remained sinless to the end of her earthly life. However, even then, because she was born of ordinary human parents, it was only because of a special privilege of being redeemed (saved) from the moment of conception rather than later in life. In other words, she did need a savior just as does the rest of humanity (see Luke 1:47).
That this savior was her Son is the reason for her special privilege, for like the Ark of the Covenant, she bore the earthly presence of God in her physical body as well as in her soul (which, as she says in Luke 1:46, “magnifies the Lord”). Therefore, it is fitting that “henceforth all generations will call me blessed” (Luke 1:48).
However, if Mary experienced death, it was not because of personal sin. How do we know? Jesus, God incarnate and therefore sinless, died before her. Mary, of all the human race, was the most completely configured to her Son in all things, so it would be fitting for her to die in imitation of his own sinless death — and be resurrected as well. As I mentioned above, the resurrection of the dead is what all Christians expect, so to see Mary given this privilege a little sooner should be no problem.
David I have a suggestion for the forum. Maybe there could be a 'pinned' topic indicating the top 50 books for those looking at converting or newly converted to the Catholic church.
This is the purpose of the Recommended Resources area. One of our members has a long-running thread there listing the resources that most influenced people in their journey of faith. It contains a wide variety of ideas, inspirations, helpful books, videos, etc.
I feel however that my next stage on my journey to becoming closer to Mary (and Jesus of course) is to go to confession. If I need to do confession since I first got baptized at 13 (although I may have to go back further because they believed it was symbollic even though it was in a liturgical church) I will be taking up much of the priests time. I'm wondering if I should go to my local priest or to another one? I have done some horrible stuff. I want | | |