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brian
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Posted: Sun Jul 20th, 2008 05:14 am |
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I was reading somewhere that some believe because he was actually taken bodily into heaven and that all people must die, that some believe that he is going to return to usher Jesus' second coming and die a martyrs death. How universal is this belief? I always figued Jesus pointing to John the Baptist as the return of Elijah was all that there was to wait for, but apprently some believe that we have yet to see the last of him.
What does it mean that he in his supposedly corruptible body is in heaven with the saints and angels? What sort of miracle is this or is it beyond our understanding? Does his great purity and ability to behold God closely on earth mean that he was able to go to heaven in his earthly body? Seems that this would be about impossible for anyone else do to the limitations and concupiscence that we live with that would be unfit for heaven and its purity. If he is such an exception would it mean that like Mary it is sitll because of the merit of Jesus that was applied in an eternal way as he was alive before Jesus?
Brian
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David W. Emery
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Posted: Sun Jul 20th, 2008 01:07 pm |
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Jewish rabbinical tradition holds that the prophet Elijah will return “at the end of the age” to welcome the Messiah. The preaching of John the Baptist concerning incarnation of the Son of God fulfills that tenet, since the advent of Christianity was, in a very real way, the “end of the age” for Judaism. Jesus himself pointed this out. His parable of the wineskins shows that the gospel he brings (the new wine) cannot be placed in the old wineskin of Judaism, for it will burst, and the wine will be spilled and ruined. Therefore, a new and resilient wineskin, the Church, must be used.
Those who claim that Elijah is still to come seem unperceptive, much as the Jews who claim that the Messiah is still to come could be said to be unperceptive. As you recognize, your speculation about a human being going to heaven “in his earthly body” contradicts what St. Paul says about the resurrection (1 Corinthians 15:35–57). So it seems that these ideologues are wrong.
David
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Gloria Mundi
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Posted: Sun Jul 20th, 2008 05:40 pm |
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David and Brian,
I put this question a few days ago and it was not answered. I have since noticed David has replied to a similar question about Elijah, I wonder why my question was not dealt with ? Was it too stupid ?
[Posted July 16th],
Just from memory, It does mention in the OT that Enoch and Elijah were taken up on a chariot so they would not see death, also in the OT there is mention of purgatory, [please bear with me as I can't remember the exact passages], but surely this is pointing to eternity or afterlife ?
Otherewise, what would be the purpose of these great Holy prophets being taken up ?
Last edited on Sun Jul 20th, 2008 05:45 pm by Gloria Mundi
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David W. Emery
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Posted: Sun Jul 20th, 2008 06:36 pm |
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Gloria Mundi wrote:I put this question a few days ago and it was not answered. I have since noticed David has replied to a similar question about Elijah, I wonder why my question was not dealt with? Was it too stupid?
Gloria, there is no such thing as a “stupid question.” That goes double on this forum. The reason I made no reply was that, in spite of the question marks, I understood your post more as a comment than a question. Now it appears that you wanted confirmation. I will gladly give it: yes, you are right.
Enoch, it says in Genesis 5:24, “walked with God; and he was not, for God took him.” Then in Sirach 44:16: “Enoch pleased the Lord, and was taken up; he was an example of repentance to all generations.” Again, in Sirach 49:14, we read: “No one like Enoch has been created on earth, for he was taken up from the earth.” And finally, in Hebrew 11:5, St. Paul tells us: “By faith Enoch was taken up so that he should not see death; and he was not found, because God had taken him. Now before he was taken he was attested as having pleased God.” This is what scripture offers regarding Enoch.
The taking up of Elijah is related in 2 Kings 2. Elijah is the one who was taken up to heaven in a whirlwind which appeared as a “chariot of fire.” It is commemorated in Sirach 48:9. Later he appears with Jesus in the transfiguration, Matthew 17:3 and parallels, showing that he is a sign of the resurrection and eternal life.
David
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brian
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Posted: Wed Jul 23rd, 2008 11:41 am |
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David,
How then do we account for the fact that he was taken up bodily to heaven or wherever he went? I mean, he did not die, yet I would think that to receive a new ressurection body one would have to die at some point as well. So did he die, or simply receive a new ressurrection body?
I got the idea from an article I read on the matter written by an Eastern Catholic monk. It is found at Byzcath.org on the title page until they take it down for something more recent. Usually this site offers accurate Christian sentiment as far as I can tell, so maybe there are still some who believe that Elijah will return. It also seems to sqaure somewhat with the holy prophets foretold in the book of Revelation. Perhaps Elijah is one of them?
Brian
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David W. Emery
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Posted: Wed Jul 23rd, 2008 12:07 pm |
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Brian, in 1 Corinthians 15:51–52 we read: “Lo! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet.” This indicates that it is quite possible that Elijah did not need to die to receive his resurrection body.
But of course we do not know what actually happened in his particular case. So the speculation you read is within the realm of possibility. Just remember that, since we do not have any hard information, it will all remain speculation, probably until the end of the age. Meanwhile, we do have the other parts of the prophecy as I outlined above, which seem to support my theory.
ByzCath.org is a solidly orthodox Catholic site. I recommend it to all who are interested in learning about the Eastern Catholic tradition. Since the article you refer to is not dealing with doctrine but is speculation over questions of fact, the author is within bounds. I have no difficulty with him presenting a viewpoint contrary to my own.
Bottom line: There is no need to be disturbed over different people’s ideas. Recall that I used the word “seems,” not asserting anything as a fact, for it is all, on both sides, a matter of opinion. You can believe what you will. Meanwhile, I’ll take a look at the article myself.
David
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brian
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Posted: Thu Jul 24th, 2008 05:55 am |
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Thanks for the reply. I have been meaning to ask them how popular this belief is and to what extent Eastern Christians favor it, or if it is simply an opinion of that particular writer and the school of thought that he comes from. Yes you did say 'seem' but to say someone 'seems unperceptive' in one statment and then say that there is room for them to be correct in another statement (though you never officially said they were wrong I admit) 'seems' a little consfusing to me. 
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David W. Emery
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Posted: Thu Jul 24th, 2008 12:57 pm |
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Yes you did say 'seem' but to say someone 'seems unperceptive' in one statment and then say that there is room for them to be correct in another statement (though you never officially said they were wrong I admit) 'seems' a little consfusing to me.
Indeed. But the unperceptiveness was seen from my perspective, so it seems (ahem) legitimate. I definitely believe as I wrote.
David
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