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JillD
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Posted: Sat Jun 14th, 2008 02:37 pm |
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I just learned that the Marian apparitions at Medjugorje have never been affirmed, that pilgrimages were banned, and that many people have become fabulously wealthy on the backs of pilgrims.
Why are people still going?
Jill
____________________
"I praise you, for I am wondrously made. Wonderful are our works! My frame was not hidden from you, when I was being made in secret." Ps 139
"Guard me, O Lord, from the hands of the wicked; preserve me from violent men." Ps 140
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David W. Emery
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Posted: Sat Jun 14th, 2008 07:49 pm |
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I don’t know that anyone has become “fabulously wealthy” selling to pilgrims to Medjugorje, but numerous people are definitely making a living at it. This is the case with every alleged apparition site, regardless of whether they are approved or rejected by the Church. Wherever people gather, someone will want to take advantage of it. Rather than condemning this very human approach to enterprise, we can see it as legitimate “tourist trade” which feeds numerous local families.
The rest of what you heard is true, but as with so many things, there are necessary qualifications:
First, regarding Church approval of the apparitions: so long as there are claims of ongoing phenomena, the Church cannot move to approve any apparition, because what now appears good could turn sour at a future date based on yet-to-be-seen phenomena. Only in the case of an obviously false apparition would we see Church action so early in the cycle. So we must wait on that.
Second, official Church-sponsored pilgrimmages are banned; in other words, the local bishop cannot set up an official site with regular apparition-oriented liturgies and devotions. But individual pilgrimmages, including parish groups and even groups accompanied by clergy (to tend to the spiritual needs of the group), are allowed. This is official general Vatican policy.
David
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CajunRick
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Posted: Sun Jun 15th, 2008 12:06 am |
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I believe there are also some restrictions on clergy celebrating mass, in that they are permitted to celebrate for their own group but not for the public at large. I believe that at one time priests would concelebrate large public liturgies, but this is no longer permitted. Again, this is general policy as no priest has permission to celebrate a public mass without permission of the diocesan ordinary.
Whether the apparitions are true or not, I have seen tremendous spiritual impact on some of the individuals who have been there. God certainly has the ability to make good come from bad, so that by itself does not prove or disprove the validity of the claims of the seers.
Last edited on Sun Jun 15th, 2008 12:07 am by CajunRick
____________________
Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
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ordinary means
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Posted: Sun Jun 15th, 2008 03:55 am |
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I’m glad an apparition site came up on the board.
Can somebody please explain to me what the Churches position is on all apocalyptic language in the approved devotions?
I have to tell you, I started looking into the Divine Mercy devotion that lead me to the Sacred and Immaculate Hearts and it scared me. Instead of finding a deeper devotion I’ve ended up in a sort of spiritual constipation. I’ve been like this for two months now.
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Anabela
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Posted: Sun Jun 15th, 2008 10:02 am |
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The Divine Mercy devotion is probably one of the most important for our times when the world is in dire need of Gods mercy. It is our only hope.
God bless you
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JillD
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Posted: Sun Jun 15th, 2008 01:49 pm |
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I read a pamphlet by Kevin Johnson (Twenty Questions About Medjugorje: What Rome Really Said) which states that the local ordinary declared 20 years ago that the apparitions are false, that the sale of souvenirs and printed material is to be stopped, that locally based pilgrimages are banned, and that foreign pilgrimages are asked to be stopped. There was more said than just these things, too. Why do people keep coming if the apparitions are false and the visionaries are not to appear in public? If they're actually real, then the Church is wrong, and if they're false, then people are, at best, being misled. Is this a case of disobedience on the part of pilgrims?
I'm still not sure what to make of this. Are people being fooled? Why is the declaration of the local bishop such a big secret while the pilgrimages are openly discussed? As I said, a local priest here is taking a group this fall. Given this information, well, I'm confused.... (So what else is new?)
Jill
____________________
"I praise you, for I am wondrously made. Wonderful are our works! My frame was not hidden from you, when I was being made in secret." Ps 139
"Guard me, O Lord, from the hands of the wicked; preserve me from violent men." Ps 140
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Anabela
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Posted: Sun Jun 15th, 2008 02:11 pm |
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It is best not to waste too much time worrying about whether Medjugorje is true or false. We have the Church's teaching and once we stick to that we cannot go wrong. We have the witness of the Saints and so much else to study about our rich Catholic faith. Also the Divine Mercy devotion is one such teaching that has been fully approved by the Church.
If we already practice our faith, we dont need to go running looking for more signs like spiritual butterflies. The Church has everything we need already. Jesus is waiting for us in the tabernacle in our Churches every day and how many of us go to visit Him and listen to Him ?
God bless you
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David W. Emery
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Posted: Sun Jun 15th, 2008 02:59 pm |
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Jill, as I said above, the Church has not pronounced on this purported series of apparitions. The fact that it is ongoing means that the Church will remain silent for a while longer.
The local ordinary’s supposed pronouncement was in fact only a personal opinion; he never did make an official statement. The Vatican, noting certain controversies surrounding both the apparitions and the bishop, took the matter out of his hands and assigned it to an episcopal committee. This is where it remains today, so that currently the original ordinary’s successor has no official jurisdiction concerning the Medjugorje affair.
Meanwhile, rhetoric has mounted on both sides of the question. I’ve seen tracts from both camps and am convinced that much of this war of words is filled with half truths and innuendos unworthy of consideration. Both sides are guilty of character assassination and misleading statements. So the only people being fooled are those who believe either camp’s allegations. Best we lie low and let the Church’s processes take place before accepting anything as certain.
Some time back we had a thread on the forum that discussed some of the controversial statements I allude to. I’ve lost track of it now, but no matter. We’re talking of an unapproved apparition here, and quite frankly, I think Anabela’s comment immediately above would apply.
By the way, Anne, welcome to the forum.
David
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David W. Emery
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Posted: Sun Jun 15th, 2008 03:32 pm |
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ordinary means wrote:Can somebody please explain to me what the Church’s position is on all apocalyptic language in the approved devotions?
Since Medjugorje is unapproved, this “position” would not apply. If we were considering an approved apparition, such as Fatima or Lourdes, the Church would regard any prophetic statement contained in it as a private revelation. From the Catechism of the Catholic Church:There will be no further Revelation
66 “The Christian economy, therefore, since it is the new and definitive Covenant, will never pass away; and no new public revelation is to be expected before the glorious manifestation of our Lord Jesus Christ.” Yet even if Revelation is already complete, it has not been made completely explicit; it remains for Christian faith gradually to grasp its full significance over the course of the centuries.
67 Throughout the ages, there have been so-called “private” revelations, some of which have been recognized by the authority of the Church. They do not belong, however, to the deposit of faith. It is not their role to improve or complete Christ’s definitive Revelation, but to help live more fully by it in a certain period of history. Guided by the Magisterium of the Church, the sensus fidelium knows how to discern and welcome in these revelations whatever constitutes an authentic call of Christ or his saints to the Church.
Christian faith cannot accept “revelations” that claim to surpass or correct the Revelation of which Christ is the fulfillment, as is the case in certain non-Christian religions and also in certain recent sects which base themselves on such “revelations.”
I started looking into the Divine Mercy devotion that led me to the Sacred and Immaculate Hearts and it scared me. Instead of finding a deeper devotion I’ve ended up in a sort of spiritual constipation.
Devotion to the Sacred Heart is based on the reality of the Eucharist, which is the Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of Christ. The heart is traditionally considered as the seat of love, so we are here speaking of the love Jesus Christ bore in his earthly life, and bears eternally in his divine life in light of the Incarnation, for human beings. He would not have died on the cross for us if he did not have this love, as he himself explains (John 15:13).
Devotion to the Immaculate Heart of Mary refers us to that heart of love, so close to the Lord, which tradition tells us was pierced by a sword (Luke 2:35) as she stood before her dying Son on Calvary. This is the source of her universal motherhood (Revelation 12:17) and intercessory power before the throne of God.
How either of these could “scare” you or cause a disruption in your devotional life, I do not understand. I do know that some non-Catholics have expressed difficulty with the idea of “worshiping body parts,” but this is a gross misinterpretation of the devotions. Perhaps you could explain.
David
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JillD
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Posted: Sun Jun 15th, 2008 04:26 pm |
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Indeed, Anne, yours is a very wise point-of-view. A miracle occurs at every Mass. That's enough for me.
Jill
____________________
"I praise you, for I am wondrously made. Wonderful are our works! My frame was not hidden from you, when I was being made in secret." Ps 139
"Guard me, O Lord, from the hands of the wicked; preserve me from violent men." Ps 140
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Robert
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Posted: Sun Jun 15th, 2008 08:16 pm |
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The whole thing with Medjugorje is very difficult to put into proper perspective.For my part, I am very sceptical of the whole situation. I’ve spent some time going thought the history and the messages themselves, and find nothing that could convince me of a true Marian Appearance.
I have some close friends who go there at least once a year and they are convinced that “it is of God”. I disagree! All they have ever told me was of their experience / conversion in the midst of mass confessions, prayer etc. Never has anyone of them said that the messages of the so-called visionaries moved them to a more devout life.
My argument is: if all of us would practice the same deep devotion to prayer and reconciliation in our own parish as some are moved to do in Medjugorje, we would have the same effect.
Again; when I ask the Medjugorje “fans” what is so different, what makes it so special, I get the answer that people a PRAYING and going to Confession. Things some here just don’t do at home.
There is also not one single message that has moved me to think that this is a true transmission of Our Lady’s thoughts and wishes.
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Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect (1 Peter 3:15)
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TotusTuus
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Posted: Wed Jun 18th, 2008 06:26 pm |
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It is very easy to take a negative position on an essentially prophetic or charismatic phenomenon. In fact, we are required to "test everything" and act prudently in the faith. With that said, I think it is helpful to be able to understand the point of view of those would take inspiration from approved apparitions like Guadalupe, Lourdes and Fatima as well as those which are still under investigation like Medjugorje.
I would note, first, that what makes Medjugorje stand out is that, if true (a big "if" at this point) it would represent a prophetic intervention by Heaven and Our Lady in world events. Essentially, Our Lady of Medjugorje is saying that the world is at risk of destroying itself. Heaven is offering a "peace plan" at a critical time in world history. Acting in a maternal role, she is admonishing, encouraging and reminding us of the basics of the faith: Prayer, Fasting, Scripture, Confession and Eucharist.
Many have said that Medjugorje is a "continuation of Fatima" in the sense of the urgent prophetic moment, the call for prayer and fasting, and the need for peace in the world.
Personally, I don't have the $6000 it would require for my wife and I to go to Medjugorje. However, over the years I've found the messages to be a gentle goad against spiritual complacency. Moreover, I think it is completely consistent with Catholic principles that there are certain objects, persons, places which are special points of access in the spiritual life. Case in point: the healing springs of Lourdes.
[Note from Dave: I deleted the link that was here because CHNI doesn't want to appear to offer any advocacy of an apparition not yet approved by the Church. We can talk about the alleged apparitions but links to sites that favor what has not been approved takes it a bit too far. Thanks for understanding. And just for the record, I am personally more or less neutral on the question, and have a great devotion to Lourdes and Fatima. Just doing my job as moderator]
Last edited on Wed Jun 18th, 2008 08:59 pm by Dave Armstrong
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TTM!
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rbo4u2
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Posted: Wed Jun 18th, 2008 08:13 pm |
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It's been hard for me to get excited about Medjugorje (let alone spell or pronounce it) or any of the other apparition sites. I keep asking myself, why only Catholics? I've been curious about Medjugorie and today added it to my list of "keep an eye on" places.
I think it was a miracle that I read about on one of the St. Faustina Divine Mercy.org stories that convinced me to pay more attention. I love St. Faustina and read something from her everyday. Now I'm watching the Medjugorie happenings and asking Mary and Jesus to keep me wise. I understand the RCC stance and respect their take on it.
I have enuf trouble getting discernment on the simple stuff, let alone trying to figure out all the apparition stuff. I've seen enuf on the Spirit Daily site to make me highly suspicious. Sometimes they seem as fire-breathing, nostril flaring as many Protestant prophets that are popular today.
Then you start talking about relics, incorruptables, and my eyes glaze over.
Oh well...I'll just keep reading the Catechism...I understand that.
Rich
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JillD
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Posted: Wed Jun 18th, 2008 08:41 pm |
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I know what you're saying, Rich. A few years ago, on one of my several approaches to the CC, I dissuaded myself by thinking, "This is just too complicated!"
And it is, well, comPLEX, not necessarily comPLICATED. There's so much to it, so much available to learn, so many tools for growth, so many aspects, etc. But I try to keep it simple. The Eucharist - that's my main focus right now. I was thinking about this at Mass this morning:- If I wanted a great homily, I'd go to the local Calvary Chapel.
- If I wanted beautiful hymns, I'd go to the Lutheran Church.
- If I wanted high liturgy, I'd find an Anglican Church.
- If I wanted good kids' programs, I'd go to the Baptist Church.
- Fellowship? The Ev Free Church maybe.
- But if I want the TRUE Body and Blood, Soul and Divinity of Jesus, there is no other choice but the Catholic Church!
And how could any of those other things hold a candle to the Eucharist??
All the other stuff in the Church is good, too, especially the Sacrament of Penance. And as I have room in my brain and spirit to find them a home, I fit them in. I can fit in a fair amount, but not nearly as much as is available! So, I'm selective. And now instead of feeling overwhelmed by it all, I realize how blessed I am and how gracious God is.
Jill
____________________
"I praise you, for I am wondrously made. Wonderful are our works! My frame was not hidden from you, when I was being made in secret." Ps 139
"Guard me, O Lord, from the hands of the wicked; preserve me from violent men." Ps 140
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rbo4u2
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Posted: Wed Jun 18th, 2008 08:56 pm |
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JillD wrote:
I know what you're saying, Rich. A few years ago, on one of my several approaches to the CC, I dissuaded myself by thinking, "This is just too complicated!"
And it is, well, comPLEX, not necessarily comPLICATED. There's so much to it, so much available to learn, so many tools for growth, so many aspects, etc. But I try to keep it simple. The Eucharist - that's my main focus right now. I was thinking about this at Mass this morning:- If I wanted a great homily, I'd go to the local Calvary Chapel.
- If I wanted beautiful hymns, I'd go to the Lutheran Church.
- If I wanted high liturgy, I'd find an Anglican Church.
- If I wanted good kids' programs, I'd go to the Baptist Church.
- Fellowship? The Ev Free Church maybe.
- But if I want the TRUE Body and Blood, Soul and Divinity of Jesus, there is no other choice but the Catholic Church!
And how could any of those other things hold a candle to the Eucharist??
All the other stuff in the Church is good, too, especially the Sacrament of Penance. And as I have room in my brain and spirit to find them a home, I fit them in. I can fit in a fair amount, but not nearly as much as is available! So, I'm selective. And now instead of feeling overwhelmed by it all, I realize how blessed I am and how gracious God is.
Jill
Interesting way of putting it Jill. I hadn't looked at it that way before.
Thanks
Rich
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Intercessor
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Posted: Fri Jun 20th, 2008 02:39 am |
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rbo4u2 wrote:
I have enuf trouble getting discernment on the simple stuff,
Rich, I'm going to start a new thread on this. Hope you will respond.
Becky
____________________
"The perfection of a soul may be measured by the degree to which it does the will of God, and finds its happiness in doing it.... O my God,...the only thing necessary is Your holy will," Divine Intimacy, pp. 15-16 Father Gabriel, O.C.D.
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