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Roaming Catholic
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| Joined: | Fri Feb 1st, 2008 |
| Location: | St. Catharines, Ontario Canada |
| Posts: | 15 |
| First Name: | Tim | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Raised RC, Pentecostal, Baptist, Mennonite, Anglican, Evangelical-Missionary |
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Posted: Fri Feb 22nd, 2008 12:47 am |
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As with many evangelicals who think of coming into the Church, it seems one of the biggest obstacles is the Marian dogmas. I've read sections of Catholic apologetics books, articles on the internet, and still find myself unconvinced. I feel like the evidence for the resurrection of Christ and many other core Christian beliefs are on rock solid ground, and the apologetics incredibly convincing. But with the Marian beliefs, it seems like the arguments are strung together in such a way that I feel like to accept the Church's teaching in this area is like standing on a thin limb. I've thought of reading Scott Hahn's book 'Hail Holy Queen,' but came across a review by another evangelical looking into the Church who said that the book wasn't really persuasive. I feel like I'm at an impasse in that I'm no longer protestant, and yet this is one area in which I don't know how to accept Catholic teachings with intellectual integrity and honesty. Sometimes it even seems like so much is made of Mary that she is elevated above Christ and it feels to my remaining protestant sensibilities like a deviation from biblical theology. Any suggestions for good books, articles, or where to go from here?
Tim
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Intercessor
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| First Name: | Becky | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Southern Baptist, Catholic |
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Posted: Fri Feb 22nd, 2008 01:23 am |
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Hello, Tim, Welcome to the forum.
Here's a beginning.
Click here.
____________________
"The perfection of a soul may be measured by the degree to which it does the will of God, and finds its happiness in doing it.... O my God,...the only thing necessary is Your holy will," Divine Intimacy, pp. 15-16 Father Gabriel, O.C.D.
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David W. Emery
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Posted: Fri Feb 22nd, 2008 04:28 am |
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Mary was the final hurdle for me in becoming Catholic, Tim. It took me a couple of years after I entered the Church to be comfortable with her role as seen by Catholic doctrine.
I am including in this post an exchange I had several years ago with an astute inquirer who had done quite a lot of studying and weighing of arguments concerning Catholic beliefs prior to our meeting. You will be able to see some of his Calvinist theology as he wrestles with themes similar to those which give you pause. (If you don’t have an Acrobat plug-in in your browser, you can right click to download the file and use the free Adobe Acrobat Reader to read the file.)
Quite apart from the intellectual difficulties in accepting Catholic doctrine concerning the communion of saints and Mary is the question of the individual’s level of comfort in actually putting those beliefs into practice. I experienced considerable discomfort myself, even after I was convinced by my “head knowledge” that the beliefs were not only tenable but true. It has been said that the few inches between the head and the heart constitute the longest distance in the universe, far more difficult to negotiate than intergalactic travel. I believe this is pretty close to the truth.
DavidAttachment: Dialogue on Mary.pdf (Downloaded 13 times)
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Free
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| Joined: | Wed Nov 28th, 2007 |
| Location: | Michigan USA |
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| First Name: | Jane | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Presbyterian, Gnostic, non-denominational, Catholic |
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Posted: Fri Feb 22nd, 2008 11:25 am |
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Tim, this might help get you started. Go to Luke 1: 48b-49, and then ask yourself if you have ever called Mary "blessed." Then go back to Luke 1:42 and notice that even before Mary said that all generations would call her blessed, Elizabeth called her blessed.
I wonder why Protestants are never taught to call Mary "blessed" when the Bible clearly shows us it is right to do so? Even Luther and Calvin called her "blessed" and considered her to be the precious ark that carried the Word, even as the ark of Moses carried the tablets of God's word.
Where did we, as Protestants lose this teaching, and why? Why did we harden our hearts toward the precious person chosen by God to bear the Word made flesh? I've even heard it said by Protestants that if one simple peasant girl didn't give birth to Jesus, another one would have done just as well. Yet we are taught as Protestants to marvel at the careful instructions given to Moses by God to prepare the first ark that would hold the stone tablets of God's commandments. Doesn't it follow both theologically and emotionally that God would lovingly prepare the second ark, the Blessed Virgin Mary, who would bear the Incarnated Son of God?
If your heart can accept the truth of God's loving preparation of the peasant girl, Mary, then the doctrine of Immaculate Conception can be birthed there, in your heart, and later you may be able to understand it with your intellect.
Also, ask yourself who the first believer was. Who was the first to believe that Jesus was the Son of God? Wasn't it Mary, who received without doubt the words of the angel, Gabriel, even before the precious Son of God was conceived in her womb? Surely the first believer in Christ is worthy of our veneration, and our devoted love. Surely a person with such great faith is the perfect prayer partner for every believer on the face of the earth. Hail Mary, full of grace, Gabriel said. Don't we do well to acknowledge Mary even as did the angel sent by God?
And if you have come to believe in the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist, and know without a doubt that unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, there is no life in you (John 6:53), consider how it was for Mary? Remember, she, too, was a disciple of Christ, and she was alive and well during the early years of the Church. Ponder in your heart how it must have been for her to be present at the breaking of bread, at the communion table (Acts 2:42), and to hear the words of institution, and to take into herself the grace, the strength, the medicine of immortality of the very Son she had held in her arms at both the stable and the cross?
Wouldn't that great love between Mother and Son, along with the great love of the Father for his precious human vessel -- wouldn't that great love, empowered by the Holy Spirit, empowered by the very desire of Father, Son and Holy Spirit to share their presence with such a beloved woman, be enough to transport her, body and soul, into their holy presence? Couldn't such great love and great desire empower her Assumption into heaven?
My prayer for you is that you will fall in love with Mary. The intellectual understanding will, by God's grace and mercy, follow along behind.
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Connie
User on Probation
| Joined: | Fri Jun 1st, 2007 |
| Location: | California USA |
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| First Name: | Connie | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Catholic Convert from Presbyterian, then Episcopalian |
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Posted: Sun Feb 24th, 2008 11:29 am |
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Mary is all our Blessed Mother, Jesus gave her to all of us at the cross. She has meant so much to me in my life, and God has sent her to me in numerous ways, in my life, to be my comfort when my own mother has not been there, to guide and direct me further along to Jesus, and when I prayed for a sign, there she was. (I have some awesome accounts of this).
Read, "True Devotion to Mary" by St. Louis de Monfort.
____________________
~Connie~
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Dave Armstrong
Network Apologist
| Joined: | Fri Nov 2nd, 2007 |
| Location: | Melvindale, Michigan USA |
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| First Name: | Dave | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Evangelical (1977): Diverse Protestant Influences / Catholic in 1990 |
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Posted: Tue Feb 26th, 2008 08:52 pm |
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Hi Tim,
Here is a selection of my articles on Mary, of an introductory nature (best read in the order I present below):
Catholic Marian Doctrines: A Brief Biblical Primer
The Imitation of Mary
"All Have Sinned . . . " (Mary?)
Is Mary Worshiped by Catholics? (The Latria / Dulia Distinction)
Did Jesus Renounce Marian Veneration? (Lk 11:27-28)
Luther, Calvin, and Other Early Protestants on the Perpetual Virginity of Mary
Why Catholics Believe in the Perpetual Virginity of Mary
If you want to delve into the issues more deeply, I have many more papers on various Mariological topics on my Blessed Virgin Mary page.
Generally speaking, my apologetics is geared towards explaining Catholic distinctives to Protestants in terms they can understand, and with as much biblical support as possible.
____________________
I'm happy to offer whatever theological & personal assistance I can. My blog, Biblical Evidence for Catholicism, contains 2000+ papers & web pages (absolutely free) & 16 apologetic books (for sale):
http://www.biblicalcatholic.com/
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hpj0828
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| First Name: | Henry | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Messianic Jewish believer, Hebrew Catholic |
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Posted: Wed Feb 27th, 2008 03:50 am |
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Dear Dave,
I have been trying to trace the midrash which links Mary to the ark for quite some time. I have not been able to determine which church father originally made this comparison? Do you know the history of this interpretation?
Henry
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HPJ
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Dave Armstrong
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Posted: Wed Feb 27th, 2008 07:38 pm |
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hpj0828 wrote: Dear Dave,
I have been trying to trace the midrash which links Mary to the ark for quite some time. I have not been able to determine which church father originally made this comparison? Do you know the history of this interpretation?
Henry
Great question, Henry. I don't know offhand, and am Googling to try to find something. Here is an article by Pat Madrid, but it discusses biblical passages, not the fathers. My books on Mary do not have an adequate index to find anything quickly.
I did find a little bit in a similar paper from Steve Ray:
Gregory the Wonder Worker (c. 213–c. 270)
"Let us chant the melody that has been taught us by the inspired harp of David, and say, ‘Arise, O Lord, into thy rest; thou, and the ark of thy sanctuary.’ For the Holy Virgin is in truth an ark, wrought with gold both within and without, that has received the whole treasury of the sanctuary."
(Homily on the Annunciation to the Holy Virgin Mary)
Athanasius of Alexandria (c. 296–373)
"O noble Virgin, truly you are greater than any other greatness. For who is your equal in greatness, O dwelling place of God the Word? To whom among all creatures shall I compare you, O Virgin? You are greater than them all O [Ark of the] Covenant, clothed with purity instead of gold! You are the ark in which is found the golden vessel containing the true manna, that is, the flesh in which divinity resides."
(Homily of the Papyrus of Turin)
Ah, I just hit the jackpot (gotta love Internet searching). My friend and fellow Michigander Steve Ray has also compiled patristic texts on this very thing. The earliest one listed is Hippolytus.
____________________
I'm happy to offer whatever theological & personal assistance I can. My blog, Biblical Evidence for Catholicism, contains 2000+ papers & web pages (absolutely free) & 16 apologetic books (for sale):
http://www.biblicalcatholic.com/
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rbo4u2
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Posted: Wed Feb 27th, 2008 08:06 pm |
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David W. Emery wrote:
It has been said that the few inches between the head and the heart constitute the longest distance in the universe, far more difficult to negotiate than intergalactic travel. I believe this is pretty close to the truth.
David, I think that is where I'm struggling now. I believe most of the Catholic doctrines, with some reservations, but getting down those last few inches to the heart is the tough one. I'm acting on faith on some of it just with hopes that somewhere along the way the seed of faith will sprout in my heart.
Rich
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hpj0828
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Posted: Wed Feb 27th, 2008 09:35 pm |
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Thanks, Dave!
Henry
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HPJ
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David W. Emery
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Posted: Thu Feb 28th, 2008 04:11 am |
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rbo4u2 wrote:I think that is where I'm struggling now.
Rich, this is where the word “commitment” is writ large. I read your posts throughout the forum, and I see that you are on the cusp. What you really need at this point is not more knowledge, not more “reasons why.” What you need is prayer.
Prayer is the vehicle of commitment as it is the vehicle of union with God. I recall about seven years ago, as I was preparing to commit (!) my ailing wife (already three years with Alzheimer’s disease) to spending the rest of her life in an institution. I was still struggling (I trust you see the parallel here) with the fact that God had “taken her away” and had made it impossible for me to do anything other than this to allow either of us to continue living. Exhausted, somehow I made an act of submission in my heart and told God, “You are the Lord. I accept your will in place of my own. I will do whatever you say.”
The surrender that day was terrible to my being. Terrible in the sense that it stripped from me the last ounce of resistance, leaving me without a “self” or a will of my own. Shortly after that fateful day, I was given a small aphorism that I have carried in my heart ever since: Accept whatever He gives; give whatever He asks. (Only recently, in reading her letters, have I discovered its striking similarity to Bl. Teresa of Calcutta’s famous word of wisdom: Accept whatever He gives and give whatever He takes with a big smile. Whichever way you write it, I think you can see Mary, our mother in faith, doing this very thing, not only at the Annunciation, where it is most apparent, but throughout her life.)
You see then, Rich, that it is not a question of “deciding” to become Catholic, but of “needing” to do it. Of submitting your being to the call of God in your heart. The call is faith; the feet running to do the will of the Master is love. Only when you are able to do this is hope born in the soul and what you dread becomes not only possible but done.
David
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Free
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Posted: Thu Feb 28th, 2008 12:00 pm |
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Rich, can you remember how it was before you surrendered your life to Christ? Can you remember struggling intellectually and emotionally? Maybe youngsters don't do that, but if you were an adult when you turned to Christ, you may remember the struggle. Then...THEN...once you made the commitment to follow Jesus as your only Lord, it made complete sense to have turned to him. The initial struggle was ended, and it seemed unthinkable to ever turn back. Plus, suddenly, Bible passages that had seemed obscure before your surrender became whole in your mind and heart, glowing with a love like you'd never known before.
I found the same thing to be true with coming into Christ's one, holy, Catholic and apostolic Church. The struggle beforehand was fierce. For me it was both intellectual and emotional, since our family tradition included deep prejudice against Catholics. By God's grace, the deep prejudices in me were pointed out by the Holy Spirit, and I confessed and repented of them. Then I was able to, one-by-one, struggle intellectually with the doctrines of the Church. When that intellectual struggle was over, I had to start extricating myself from my former church, which included an offering up to Jesus of the healing/deliverance ministry that he had given to me a few years before, and which had been such a Godsend to so many people. And I had to go through relational break-ups with a number of friends and the pastor and his wife because of my decision to become Catholic. Had I left to go to a mainline Protestant church, or another non-denominational church, they would have prided themselves on their Christian spirit in letting me go gracefully.
Then...THEN, once I was received into the Catholic Church, the struggle was over, and I couldn't even imagine ever going back. Once you know the truth of Jesus Christ, and you exert your will to follow him, it seems impossible that you'd ever turn away from him, and once you know the truth of his Church, and are received into it, it is unimaginable to have ever decided differently.
Plus, I have noticed over this past year tremedous changes within myself, most of them having to do with true humility growing within me. These changes have nothing to do with my effort. Hearing the way Catholics talk on EWTN and in my parish, reading the works of Catholic writers, and most of all, receiving the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ through the Eucharist and Reconciliation sacraments have facilitated this inward change in me, I believe. This change was unsought, unexpected (I thought I was already humble!), and it would have never happened had I remained outside the Catholic Church, agreeing intellectually, yet not joining my life to it.
What a gift, that Jesus wants us to participate in his life! And that he has given us a simple, real way to do it -- simply to eat his flesh and drink his blood, and his eternal life will be transmitted to us in this substantial way. And having participated in this true communion with our Lord, it is unthinkable of ever turning away.
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rbo4u2
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Posted: Thu Feb 28th, 2008 02:19 pm |
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:?Phew...you folks (Dave & Jane)...really know where to shoot don't you?
Yeah, the struggle is really deep right now. My wife is not in with me on this but seems tolerant. Her love is with the small group we lead together. I could go into a litany of "reasons" for waiting, but they all sound like excuses at this point. And I'm sure you all have heard all the struggles before. It IS a spiritual struggle now. And yes, I'm on the "cusp" as you said. I smell the river. And it scares the crap out of me...sorry!!
All my life I've made hasty decisions based upon my feelings. Some have paid off, many were disasters. I'm an impulsive person and the last thing I want to do is follow an emotional impulse. I've done enough of that and with an issue this important, I don't want to do it without sound reasoning.
Keep praying. I will have to discuss this major decision with my wife to assure her I'm not going to abandon her in this step. Especially as I go through the annullment issue over my former wife. It's one thing my present wife just doesn't understand. She's a super logical person and I'm not. I kid her and say I've married a Vulcan, Spocks sister. She can see through every argument and spot the weakness. I guess that comes from her being a nurse.
Thanks for your comments. Like I say, the river is in view.
Rich
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CajunRick
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Posted: Thu Feb 28th, 2008 05:22 pm |
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rbo4u2 wrote: It IS a spiritual struggle now. And yes, I'm on the "cusp" as you said. I smell the river. And it scares the crap out of me...sorry!!
Many have been where you are today. I remember Alex Jones talking about his discovery, much to his dismay, that the early Church was "C-c-c-c-c-atholic"! Scott Hahn also describes how he was willing to be "Anything But Catholic". The "A-B-C" sentiment is strong in Protestantism, and no doubt it is a high hurdle to overcome. But when one realizes that Jesus is the Way, the Truth, and the Life, and that the Catholic Church is the Way that contains the Truth and brings us to eternal Life, it's hard to refuse.
Visit a Catholic Church. Pray before the Eucharist. Ask Jesus to show you the right decision. Attend mass. Give yourself a chance to absorb the truth.
The pressure will not come from God or from our forum. The Church will not "hustle" you in any way. The drive for the fullness of the Christian faith, as found only in the Catholic Church, will come from within you.
And we and Holy Mother Church will be waiting to welcome you.
____________________
Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
Luquette Lane
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germangreek
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| First Name: | Richard | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Catholic, (Charismatic and still) Catholic |
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Posted: Thu Feb 28th, 2008 05:30 pm |
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So, you've sorted through the sacraments, Penance especially, and decided that the Catholics have the better arguments. Apostolic succession, Real Presence, intercession of the saints, purgatory (?) ... and the Catholics have the better arguments. Unless you actually belong to a Presbyterian congregation that calls Mary "Blessed" and "Mother of my Lord" and teaches Christians to do so (which, as you know, Scripture does), why are the Catholic arguments less convincing? You don't have to pray rosaries (I seldom do) if you can agree it's alright that it be done.
All my life I've made hasty decisions based upon my feelings. Some have paid off, many were disasters. I'm an impulsive person and the last thing I want to do is follow an emotional impulse. I've done enough of that and with an issue this important, I don't want to do it without sound reasoning.
Dave is right about commitment. Did you have to be satisfied with every last thing to marry your wife, or satisfied with enough to trust in what you hadn't yet learned?
My prayers as well for you and your wife,
____________________
"The purpose of an open mind, like that of an open mouth, is to close it on something solid." GK Chesterton.
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rbo4u2
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Posted: Thu Feb 28th, 2008 05:40 pm |
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germangreek wrote:
Dave is right about commitment. Did you have to be satisfied with every last thing to marry your wife, or satisfied with enough to trust in what you hadn't yet learned?
My prayers as well for you and your wife,
I'm rolling over in laughter on this one. I think the question is, if she had known all my quirks and shortcomings prior to our marriage would she have married me? You are dead on, of course. Point taken.
Rich
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rbo4u2
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Posted: Thu Feb 28th, 2008 05:43 pm |
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CajunRick wrote:
Visit a Catholic Church. Pray before the Eucharist. Ask Jesus to show you the right decision. Attend mass. Give yourself a chance to absorb the truth.
The pressure will not come from God or from our forum. The Church will not "hustle" you in any way. The drive for the fullness of the Christian faith, as found only in the Catholic Church, will come from within you.
And we and Holy Mother Church will be waiting to welcome you.
You are right, of course Rick. The times I have sat in adoration and prayed before our Lord, I have sensed a Holiness I could never describe. That will be my next step which is to start attending the mass and praying. My instructions will come from our Lord, I know. He knows I love Him more than life itself.
Rich
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germangreek
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Posted: Thu Feb 28th, 2008 06:01 pm |
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rbo4u2 wrote:
I'm rolling over in laughter on this one. I think the question is, if she had known all my quirks and shortcomings prior to our marriage would she have married me? You are dead on, of course. Point taken.
See? She has more faith than you do! Or poorer vision!
____________________
"The purpose of an open mind, like that of an open mouth, is to close it on something solid." GK Chesterton.
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rbo4u2
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Posted: Thu Feb 28th, 2008 07:04 pm |
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germangreek wrote: You don't have to pray rosaries (I seldom do) if you can agree it's alright that it be done.
Regarding the rosary. I accepted it rather early on by faith. I prayed that if it was real and helpful, I would make it a pattern of living. All I can say is that every time I stopped praying the rosary, I cooled to the things of God, especially in reference to the Catholic church. But then, when I started praying again, it was like I was being granted entrance again into the heart of God. It forces me to focus on Christ. Sure my mind wanders, and when I use my Ipod listening to the Rosary Army prayers of the Rosary, I may even find myself dozing. That's probably because the only time I can have a moment to myself is after my wife goes to bed and the house is quiet. I'll grant you this, there is no greater sleeping pill.
So for me, the Rosary has become my lifeline to Catholic spirituality as it relates to Jesus at this time. For the life of me, I can't understand why it's so ignored or not used by more Catholics. The Hail Mary's are such a soothing backdrop to my real focus of attention. And when I have trouble concentrating, I put pictures and or scripture verses of the various decades to focus my mind on Jesus. So if anything, it has kept me on track.
It is not empty repitition. It simply uses the most powerful method of teaching in the world and that is meaningful repitition of a thought bringing the one praying into a rhythm that matches the tuning fork of the body and soul. (sorry, I can't find scripture and verse for that but it makes sense to me) Again, as I've said in other places. The focus is taken off of my self and onto Jesus. It forces me to think that it's not about me, but Jesus.
Does it do me any spiritual good? I have to answer yes. Now how to use this powerful prayer in praying for others is my next step...I think. I keep getting this nagging feeling that when I cross the Tiber, the prayer will take on a whole new meaning. I'll do anything to Love Jesus and his body more. Like I've said before, when I turned 60 I made a promise to the Lord that whatever it took, I'd give him the last third of my life totally, without reservation. I've wasted pretty much the first two thirds so now that I've grown closer to the door of eternity, I want to enter in knowing that these last years of my life will have been spent serving my Lord to my fullest.
Rich
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Intercessor
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Posted: Thu Feb 28th, 2008 09:39 pm |
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David Emery's aphorism: Accept whatever He gives; give whatever He asks.
David's aphorism has been helpful to me.
I have two others that have helped me:
Obey the truth that the Holy Spirit has already revealed to you.
and
Knowledge of Christ leads to obedience to Christ leads to knowledge of Christ leads to obedience to Christ.
God does not usually grant additional understanding until we obey the truth He has already revealed.
Who knew, Rich? You have become one of my favorite "brothers" in the kingdom. 
Love and prayers, Brother Rich,
Becky
____________________
"The perfection of a soul may be measured by the degree to which it does the will of God, and finds its happiness in doing it.... O my God,...the only thing necessary is Your holy will," Divine Intimacy, pp. 15-16 Father Gabriel, O.C.D.
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rbo4u2
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Posted: Thu Feb 28th, 2008 09:54 pm |
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You are very kind Becky. Thank you for your kind words and prayers.
I'm taking it one step at a time when sometimes I want to leap.
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Current time is 08:58 am | |
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