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bwhite06517
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| Joined: | Sat Dec 29th, 2007 |
| Location: | Hamden, Connecticut USA |
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| First Name: | Bruce | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Methodist, Pentecostal, Baptist, CATHOLIC!!!! |
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Posted: Wed Jan 9th, 2008 05:39 pm |
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I have been thinking (hopefully with some reasonable thought) about the very uniqueness of Mary's pregnancy with Jesus.
In all other pregnancies, the child received nutrition from the mother through the placenta. It is a one-way street.
Mary is described in scripture BEFORE she became pregnant as "full of grace".
""The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. " (Luke 1:35)
BUT ... in this case, the child was FULLY GOD and FULLY MAN. In her womb was the second person of the trinity - truly God.
In the old testament, when Moses met with God, his face shown and they had to put a veil on him when he came down from the mountain and being with God.
In Mary's case, wouldn't the fullness of God within her womb radiate out to her in a very special reverse case? The child as fully God was in her womb. Like Moses being face-to-face with God, the perfect qualities of this child would radiate out from the womb to Mary. The very fullness of God was IN Mary's womb. This fullness of God would in some sense 'radiate' out to her - so in some respect, Mary fed nutritrion to Jesus through her placenta - and Jesus fed grace, love, mercy, truth, etc. to Mary.
(Poor analogy time). If someplace placed a highly radioactive lump in my lower intestine (since I don't have a womb) - it would radiate out into my body; in this case, God the Father, through the Holy Spirit put the perfect 'radiance' of Jesus the son into Mary's womb. His love would radiate out of the womb into Mary's whole being.
Does this make sense?
____________________
You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, all your mind, all your soul and all your strength.
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DrDave
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| Joined: | Mon Nov 6th, 2006 |
| Location: | Mildura, Australia |
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Posted: Wed Jan 9th, 2008 08:59 pm |
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Perhaps this line of thinking would help explain John the Baptist's reaction when his mother heard Mary's voice? Sounds reasonable to me
Regards Doc
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bwhite06517
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| Joined: | Sat Dec 29th, 2007 |
| Location: | Hamden, Connecticut USA |
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| First Name: | Bruce | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Methodist, Pentecostal, Baptist, CATHOLIC!!!! |
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Posted: Wed Jan 9th, 2008 09:12 pm |
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I like that reasoning!!!
In the Spirit world, the babe within Elizabeth's womb (not being born yet), but could sense the presence of Jesus within Mary's womb. Although I don't think it is Christian or Catholic in most senses, but in the Star Wars movie (mostly the first one), Luke Skywalker is told by "use the force" - and kind of 'walked by faith' - and was able to destroy the 'death star'.
Bruce
____________________
You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, all your mind, all your soul and all your strength.
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DrDave
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| Location: | Mildura, Australia |
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| First Name: | Dave | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Cradle - Lapsed - Renewed Catholic |
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Posted: Wed Jan 9th, 2008 09:43 pm |
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bwhite06517 wrote: Luke Skywalker is told by "use the force" - and kind of 'walked by faith'
Which he does despite the fact that Yoda is a Heretic!! 
Regards Doc
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HelenRose
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| Joined: | Mon Dec 17th, 2007 |
| Location: | Cedaredge, Colorado USA |
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| First Name: | Helen | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Christian Church, Catholic Church |
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Posted: Wed Jan 9th, 2008 10:22 pm |
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| I guess I can see why this would be an interesting topic for some but having had three babies of my own I have an idea that Mary's pregnancy was the same as every other woman's pregnancy. The miracle of having a baby is miracle enough. That joy could hardly be improved upon.
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Dave Armstrong
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| Joined: | Fri Nov 2nd, 2007 |
| Location: | Melvindale, Michigan USA |
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| First Name: | Dave | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Evangelical (1977): Diverse Protestant Influences / Catholic in 1990 |
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Posted: Wed Jan 9th, 2008 10:40 pm |
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I think this is interesting and not contrary to any Catholic doctrine that I am aware of. I have argued similarly in my first book, A Biblical Defense of Catholicism, maintaining that the closer one gets to God the holier one becomes:
Perhaps a bit more reflection on the nature of the ark, the tabernacle, and the temple is helpful at this point, in order to grasp the profundity of the parallelism between these "holy places," where God is "specially" present (after all, He is omnipresent), and the Blessed Virgin, in whom God in the flesh chose to take up His initial earthly abode.
By analyzing the similarities, one can see how Mary's Immaculate Conception is altogether in keeping with the typology of Scripture in this regard, and quite appropriate and fitting for one who was granted the unfathomable honor of being chosen as the Mother of God.
The temple site was very sacred and holy (1 Chronicles 29:3, Isaiah 11:9, 56:7, 64:10) as were its various rooms and areas and all its sacred objects (Ezekiel 42:13, 46:19, Isaiah 62:9), and the city of Jerusalem itself (Nehemiah 11:1,18, Isaiah 48:2). Of course the ground of Mt. Sinai was holy due to God's peculiar presence (Exodus 3:5), and God's presence in the Israelite camp rendered it holy (Deuteronomy 23:14).
The presence of God always imparted holiness (Deuteronomy 7:6, 26:19, Jeremiah 2:3). Even God's "holy name" was thought by the Jews to constitute His actual presence with them (Leviticus 20:3, 22:2, 1 Chronicles 16:10) . . .When something was holy, it then partook of God's own holiness. Angels are called holy ones precisely because of their proximity to God (Job 5:1, Psalm 89:6-7).
The furnishings of the tabernacle, a portable sacred tent which prefigured and preceded the temple, were not to be touched by the Levites (or anyone else, save for a select few priests), on pain of death (Numbers 1:51-53, 2:17, 4:15). Likewise, the ark, which was carried on poles inserted through rings on its edges, was so holy it could not be touched.
On one occasion, the ark was about to fall over when being transported, and one Uzziah (seemingly with the purest motives) reached out to steady it. He was immediately struck dead (2 Samuel 6:2-7). The men of Beth-shemesh also died when they merely looked inside the ark (1 Samuel 6:19; cf. Exodus 33:20).
The temple in Jerusalem (actually, three in succession) was simply the permanent structure based on the plan of the tabernacle, with outer courts, priest's courts, an altar, and the innermost holy sanctuary, the "holy of holies." The ark of the covenant was placed inside the holy of holies in the first (Solomon's) temple, but was lost after the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple by the Babylonians, led by Nebuchadnezzar, in 587 B.C.
Israelite priests were subject to very strict demands regarding marriage and ritual purity (Leviticus 21-22), especially the high priest (Leviticus 21:10-15). The holy of holies could only be entered by the high priest, and only on the yearly Day of Atonement (Yom Kippur), with appropriate reverential precautions (Leviticus 16, Numbers 29:8).
In Leviticus 16:2,13 the high priest is warned to properly observe instructions that he die not. The Jews used to tie a rope to the ankle of the high priest on Yom Kippur, so that they could safely pull him out if he was disobedient in some respect and died in the holy of holies. God dwelt above the mercy seat on top of the ark, between the two cherubim (Exodus 25:22).
Just before the Israelites were to receive the Ten Commandments, God made a spectacular appearance at Mt. Sinai (Exodus 19-20), accompanied, as usual in Scripture, by fire and a cloud (“smoke,” 19:18). He warned the people not to even touch the mountain, or its "border," under penalty of death (19:12-13). Even animals were included in the restriction.
The point of all this digression is to illustrate how God regards people and also inanimate objects which are to come in close contact with Him. Cruel as it may seem from our vantage point, the severity of death as the consequence of disrespect or disobedience was necessary to make absolutely clear how awesome and majestic God's holiness is.
The strictness of the ceremonial Law was to change, of course, with the arrival of the Messiah and the New Covenant, but the Old Testament principle of "holiness/separate unto the Lord" remained. . . .
The Immaculate Conception is merely the supreme, glorious realization of the notion which leaps out from practically every page of Scripture from beginning to end – that God is holy, and the closer we get to Him, the more we must be holy.
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I'm happy to offer whatever theological & personal assistance I can. My blog, Biblical Evidence for Catholicism, contains 2000+ papers & web pages (absolutely free) & 16 apologetic books (for sale):
http://www.biblicalcatholic.com/
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CajunRick
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| Joined: | Fri Sep 29th, 2006 |
| Location: | Houma, Louisiana USA |
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| First Name: | Rick (& Kermie) | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Lifetime Catholic, Latin Rite |
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Posted: Thu Jan 10th, 2008 01:28 am |
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bwhite06517 wrote: Does this make sense?
Yes, it does, but I think there are a couple of points you are overlooking.
You say the placenta is a one-way barrier and you're most likely correct (I'm not a doctor, scientist, etc., but it sounds reasonable to me) but there is a definite effect on a woman from her pregnancy, even if it not coming directly from the baby. A pregnant woman takes on a "glow". I know I can often tell when a woman is pregnant because she seems so much more beautiful. I assume there is something biological or pheremonal about it because I have a strong desire to protect her, compliment her, and take care of her. I know my wife was never more beautiful than when she was pregnant.
If this is the effect of a normal pregnancy, what would the efffect of a Divine pregnancy be? Scripture tells us that John leapt in Elizabeth's womb not from the presence of the baby but from the sound of Mary's voice! I think it is obvious from the scriptural account that Elizabeth knew who Mary was but it is unlikely she knew Mary was pregnant, and yet her baby (John) knew the mother of his cousin. I think it tells us a lot about Mary that John leapt in Elizabeth's womb at the sound of Mary's voice! I don't think we need any more proof that Mary was special, not because she carried the Infant God in her womb, but because she was Mary -- specially chosen by God to bear God's only Son!
As to how unique her pregnancy was, we simply don't know. It certainly began uniquely, but we don't know whether she underwent labor, had pains, issued blood, expelled the afterbirth, etc. Our Church takes no position. Some of the early Fathers said Jesus passed through her like smoke through a tissue; others believed she had a perfectly normal delivery. The song "Silent Night" claims Jesus never cried, but we have no way to know if that is true. I prefer to think that her pregnancy, labor, and delivery were perfectly normal, part of making Jesus "a man like us in all things but sin". But I really don't know, and you are free to believe what you will.
To me, it is much more incredible that God submitted to experiencing birth, life, and death as any other human than it would be to think of God as experiencing special treatment. How awesome would it be to have our God willingly submit to all of the same experiences that we have to undergo? This is the God who wants to know me so much that God is willing to experience the same life, death, and resurrection that I will experience! And the mother of God is willing to experience exactly the same childbirth as my own mother (except for the conception, of course, and without the drugs).
This, to me, is absolutely incredible. How could I not love and honor someone who willingly undertook these things just to understand me better, while knowing that I would reject my Savior over and over through sin?
I can only imagine!
____________________
Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
Luquette Lane
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Ali
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| Joined: | Sat Jan 6th, 2007 |
| Location: | Ohio USA |
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| First Name: | Ali | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | JW, finally fully Catholic |
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Posted: Thu Jan 10th, 2008 11:20 am |
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CajunRick wrote: To me, it is much more incredible that God submitted to experiencing birth, life, and death as any other human than it would be to think of God as experiencing special treatment. How awesome would it be to have our God willingly submit to all of the same experiences that we have to undergo? This is the God who wants to know me so much that God is willing to experience the same life, death, and resurrection that I will experience! And the mother of God is willing to experience exactly the same childbirth as my own mother (except for the conception, of course, and without the drugs).
This, to me, is absolutely incredible. How could I not love and honor someone who willingly undertook these things just to understand me better, while knowing that I would reject my Savior over and over through sin?
I can only imagine!
I love this though, Rick. I may to print it out.
Ali
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