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Darlene
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| Joined: | Mon Oct 9th, 2006 |
| Location: | Pocono Mountains, Pennsylvania USA |
| Posts: | 868 |
| First Name: | Darlene | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Christian, trusting His love and forgiveness |
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Posted: Tue Feb 20th, 2007 08:41 pm |
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Hello Everyone,
Ok...the topic on whether Hell is populated has me perplexed about the Church's role in judging the eternal destiny of any soul. What do I mean by this? Well, I find it odd that on one hand, (on the other thread), many are saying the Catholic Church says that it cannot say for certain that Hell is populated, and backing that up with quotes from the Catechism. Then my question is, How can the Catholic Church say that Purgatory is populated? Isn't that a judgment of sorts? At the Catholic Bible studies I attend, parishners pray for the souls in Purgatory, fully believing that there are souls which reside there. Next, How can the Catholic Church determine that for certain, there are those who are in Heaven and achieved Sainthood? If the destiny of some certain souls can be said to be in Purgatory and others in Heaven, then why not Hell as well? In fact, the Church is actually saying that certain persons who have been beatified are difinitively and resolutely in Heaven. There is no question as to their human destiny whatsoever. That is why many Catholics pray to various saints. And while the Church is not definitve about who resides in Purgatory, the church is resolute in stating that there are most certainly souls that reside there. Ok, with this logic and reasoning thus far, why not state that this place, which God created for the wicked, called Hell, is certainly populated. But by whom, the Church cannot say. Why is it permissable to state that there are both souls in Heaven and Purgatory, but not Hell. This makes no sense to me.
Otherwise, the reasoning and judgment of what many say the Catechism states is inconsistent. To say one cannot judge whether Hell is populated, but the Church can judge that Heaven and Purgatory are, is inconsistent theology.
Now personally, there are those Christians that I have known until they died, of whose destiny I have no doubt was Heaven. I witnessed their faith until their last days. So I have no problem saying, "Brother so and so, or sister so in so, is with the Lord." Now, there are those whom I have known until their death, whose destiny I seriously question was that of Heaven. It's possible, but not probable. However, I see no problem with believing and stating that Hell is populated. And I do not see it as unscriptural.
Enough said for now.
Darlene
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The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all. II Corinthians 13:14
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CajunRick
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| Joined: | Fri Sep 29th, 2006 |
| Location: | Houma, Louisiana USA |
| Posts: | 5314 |
| First Name: | Rick (& Kermie) | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Lifetime Catholic, Latin Rite |
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Posted: Tue Feb 20th, 2007 10:12 pm |
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Darlene wrote: How can the Catholic Church say that Purgatory is populated? Isn't that a judgment of sorts?
Yes. The assumption is based on the knowledge that few of us achieve perfection in this life, and perfection is the criteria for heaven.
It is still an assumption, not a certainty. We do not know that there are souls in Purgatory. Both hell and Purgatory may be empty. I doubt it, but there are no certainties.
How can the Catholic Church determine that for certain, there are those who are in Heaven and achieved Sainthood?
Jesus has given us the criteria for heaven: Matthew 25:31-46. He also tells us that those who are persecuted for the sake of justice, or who suffer in his name, will be rewarded in heaven. So martyrs for the faith are known to be in heaven, as are those of a particular spiritual closeness to God, such as Mother Teresa.
Any candidate for canonization undergoes a rigorous process of investigation which includes examination for unrepented sin. A "special prosecutor" is appointed to look for anything that may indicate this person did not devote his life to God.
But that's not enough. Those who are not martyrs for the faith require two miraculous interventions that cannot be explained in any other manner. The first must take place after their death and before their beatification; the second must take place after their beatification and prior to their canonization. If the miracles can be explained by any other means, the beatification or canonization will not take place. With today's advances in medical science, it is much more difficult to certify a miracle than it was even a hundred years ago.
People recognized as "Blessed" a thousand years ago are still awaiting another miracle to allow them to be named a saint.
Can the Church make a mistake, and canonize someone who is not in heaven? No. Why? Because it is protected from error by the Holy Spirit in all official acts of faith and morals, and the canonization of a saint is an official act of faith.
So we truly don't know whether there is anyone in hell, and we truly don't know whether there is anyone in purgatory, but we know with absolute certainty that there are saints in heaven because the Church tells us so.
(We do assume there are souls in hell and purgatory, but we do not have the certainty of the Church as we do with heaven.)
Why is it permissable to state that there are both souls in Heaven and Purgatory, but not Hell. This makes no sense to me.
It's actually quite simple. We can tell by a person's life that they did not renounce Jesus in their last moments, after a lifetime of acceptance. We cannot tell if a person, after a lifetime of rejection, did not accept Jesus at that final moment.
Otherwise, the reasoning and judgment of what many say the Catechism states is inconsistent. To say one cannot judge whether Hell is populated, but the Church can judge that Heaven and Purgatory are, is inconsistent theology.
No, it isn't. We have the infallible Magisterium of the Church telling us that some few individuals have made it to heaven (4096, last count I saw). Of all the billions of people who lived since the beginning of time, only these few have been officially recognized as being in heaven. So we know with the certainty of our faith that there are 4096 souls in heaven, and believe there are billions more ... but we truly don't know where the rest are. So it is possible (but doubtful) that there are no souls in hell; it is possible (but doubtful) that there are no souls in purgatory. It is not possible that there are no souls in heaven, since the Church tells us some are there.
We also know with certainty from Scripture that God desires the salvation of all humanity. We do not know with certainty that God desires the condemnation of anyone (although Scripture does tell us some will be condemned). So we believe that some have been condemned and some are in purgatory, but we don't know how many, and we cannot state with certainty that God has chosen to condemn any individual.
But getting back to possibilities: It is possible (but unlikely) that there are no souls in hell; it is possible (but unlikely) that there are no souls in Purgatory; it is not possible that there are no souls in heaven, since God desires the salvation of all humanity, and since the Church tells us that some few are definitely there.
Now personally, there are those Christians that I have known until they died, of whose destiny I have no doubt was Heaven. I witnessed their faith until their last days. So I have no problem saying, "Brother so and so, or sister so in so, is with the Lord." Now, there are those whom I have known until their death, whose destiny I seriously question was that of Heaven. It's possible, but not probable. However, I see no problem with believing and stating that Hell is populated. And I do not see it as unscriptural.
And I agree completely. As I have said, I believe both hell and purgatory are populated, but it is not something I can say with certainty. And that is all the Church says: We cannot say it with certainty.
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Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
Luquette Lane
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David W. Emery
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| Joined: | Fri Sep 29th, 2006 |
| Location: | Brownsville, Texas USA |
| Posts: | 2034 |
| First Name: | David | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Catholic |
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Posted: Tue Feb 20th, 2007 10:20 pm |
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Many are saying the Catholic Church says that it cannot say for certain that Hell is populated.
This is not quite correct. The Church does not say who is in hell, or whether anyone is there. This is not the same as saying that she cannot. (Although I do believe that there is always a possibility that a person who has led a bad life and prima facie is a prime candidate for hell can still repent at the last moment and thus be saved. Certainly no one has come back from hell to report on the individuals who have chosen it as their eternal home.) Private individuals have taken sides and given reasons on this issue (perfectly legitimate), but their opinions remain private.
How can the Catholic Church say that Purgatory is populated? Isn't that a judgment of sorts?
Yes, it is. So is the declaration that someone is in heaven. But here the Church is not “judging” in the biblical sense of criticizing or condemning. Also, evidence is given that show a person’s virtues during life and the miracles attributed to him.
In the case of purgatory, there are frequent visitations which show the existence of souls who are being purified beyond the grave. They will eventually take their rightful place in heaven. So these things are determined by evidence, whereas in the question of souls in hell, it is not supported by evidence and is avoided for reasons of truth and charity.
Finally, the Church’s silence on a topic such as the population of hell is not itself an interpretation. In other words, we should not be reading something into the lack of a pronouncement. Like you, my personal opinion is that hell is populated, and I pray daily for the souls in purgatory. It is not unscriptural, and it is not uncharitable to say this; on the contrary, scripture encourages prayers for the dead and this is done precisely in the name of charity. But again like you, I do not make bold to say that so-and-so is certainly in hell. That is that person’s decision, not mine, and it is God’s judgment, not mine to make.
So your approach, Darlene, is in perfect harmony with the Catholic view of the matter, aside from the fact that you are blaming the Church for keeping silent where she could conceivably speak out. It could still happen that one day the Church will pronounce something on this subject. But is it necessary? What purpose would it serve?
David
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