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Esther
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| Joined: | Fri Sep 29th, 2006 |
| Location: | Kansas City, Kansas USA |
| Posts: | 145 |
| First Name: | Esther | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Southern Baptist to Roman Catholic 11/26/06 |
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Posted: Tue Jan 9th, 2007 11:46 pm |
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I am leading a small study with some youth. A couple of months ago they went to a Protestant bible study and were bombarded with questions of their salvation and such. They threw in the fear factor of the end times. We have worked through salvation and I tried to explain why the Church teaches salvation with works and the authority of the Church (BTW- I have been using the responses you all used to help me. Hope you don't mind). Well now they want to know about the end times. Well I could tell them all about what some Southern Baptists ideas about it, but I am clueless about what the Church teaches. Does the Church have a stance on the tribulation, rapture (pre, mid, or post trib), the mark of the beast, and so on? Are there any good books, web-sites, or other resources some one could point me towards?
Thanks,
Esther
(Sorry if I posted this and the wrong spot)
Last edited on Tue Jan 9th, 2007 11:48 pm by Esther
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CajunRick
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| Joined: | Fri Sep 29th, 2006 |
| Location: | Houma, Louisiana USA |
| Posts: | 5312 |
| First Name: | Rick (& Kermie) | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Lifetime Catholic, Latin Rite |
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Posted: Wed Jan 10th, 2007 12:41 am |
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Esther wrote: Does the Church have a stance on the tribulation, rapture (pre, mid, or post trib), the mark of the beast, and so on? Are there any good books, web-sites, or other resources some one could point me towards?
Catholics United for the Faith have Faith Facts on the "rapture" here and here.
Catholic Answers offers a tract on the Rapture here.
The best work on the subject is probably The Rapture Trap by Dr. Paul Thigpen. The forward is written by Marcus Grodi, executive director of the Coming Home Network International and host of the Journey Home on EWTN. Another reference is Rapture by David Currie.
You will not find "rapture" in the Catechism. You also will not find it in the bible.
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Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
Luquette Lane
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David W. Emery
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| Joined: | Fri Sep 29th, 2006 |
| Location: | Brownsville, Texas USA |
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| First Name: | David | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Catholic |
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Posted: Wed Jan 10th, 2007 12:55 am |
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Rick has given you some good references. Here is another link: EWTN FAQ
There are numerous books on the subject of end times and the Catholic view of Evangelical theories of millennium and rapture. One is Will Catholics Be Left Behind? by Carl Olsen; another is The Rapture Trap by Paul Thigpen. Both are former Evangelicals who accepted the millennium and the rapture before becoming Catholic. Thigpen’s book was written for Catholics who want to understand the issues better. Olsen’s book is more apologetical.
Catholics use the word “rapture” in an entirely different sense from Evangelicals. In the Catholic spiritual tradition, it is a mystical phenomenon wherein a person becomes oblivious to his physical surroundings while communing intimately with God in prayer.
David
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Ali
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| Joined: | Sat Jan 6th, 2007 |
| Location: | Ohio USA |
| Posts: | 661 |
| First Name: | Ali | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | JW, finally fully Catholic |
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Posted: Wed Jan 10th, 2007 02:56 pm |
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Hello  I'm going to be purchasing these cards Friendly Defender Catholic flash cards ( Link -- http://www.getfed.com/displayproduct.cfm?JP=2005011 )for my own children first, then use them with my CCD class. I don't know how old your youth's are, so maybe these cards are to young for them.
HTH,
Ali
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Truthseeker
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| Joined: | Wed Oct 4th, 2006 |
| Location: | Costa Mesa, California USA |
| Posts: | 371 |
| First Name: | Laura | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | lapsed and returned CATHOLIC!!!!!! |
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Posted: Wed Jan 10th, 2007 07:47 pm |
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http://www.biblechristiansociety.com/ has a tape/cd called "The Rapture - Will You Be left Behind?" by John Martingoni It's free + $1 S&H. I was afraid of being left behind until I listened to it. It is great.
One thing to mention right now is this: When the bible says "Like in the days of Noah and Lot...some will be taken and some will be left behind", the people taken are the evil doers who are destroyed and the ones left behind are the good people who are obeying God. And the ones left behind are the ones who are "caught up" to be with Jesus (raptured). There is another bible verse that says at the end of time, God will gather and destry the "bad stuff" in the field and harvest the actual crops. (Sorry- I obviously don't know the ACTUAL verse!) But the point is that the harvest is what is left behind.
Anyway, when you go to the website, make sure it's catholic - sometimes, I get a proestant site by the same name.
Love,
Laura
Edited by David W. Emery 1/10/06 7:33 pm to correct the link.
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Lord, please make my will your Will!
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Juan
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| Joined: | Tue Oct 17th, 2006 |
| Location: | Texas USA |
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Posted: Thu Jan 11th, 2007 07:10 pm |
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Hi Laura,
I think the question about who will be taken first in the tribulation/rapture is still open to interpretation. According to what I've read from the Catholic Visionaries, many will die at the end times, but not just the evil.
And we have to remember that we believe in Purgatory. So even if many will wail and grind their teeth, we may still see them in glory later.
And the Bible is ambivalent on that score also. In some verses, the tares seem to be gathered first and burned.
Matthew 13:29-31
29But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.
30Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.
31Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is like to a grain of mustard seed, which a man took, and sowed in his field:
While in others, the sheep are gathered first:
Matthew 25
31When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: 32And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
34Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:....
41Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
42For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
43I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
44Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
45Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
46And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
And yet again, the gathering seems to be simultaneous.
Matthew 13
47Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a net, that was cast into the sea, and gathered of every kind: 48Which, when it was full, they drew to shore, and sat down, and gathered the good into vessels, but cast the bad away.
49So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
50And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
I believe in the past, on the other forum, I posted that the ones left behind were the good. After further consideration, I have changed my opinion. In fact, I can only say, "I don't know." I apologize if I caused any confusion.
Sincerely,
Juan
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Truthseeker
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| Joined: | Wed Oct 4th, 2006 |
| Location: | Costa Mesa, California USA |
| Posts: | 371 |
| First Name: | Laura | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | lapsed and returned CATHOLIC!!!!!! |
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Posted: Thu Jan 11th, 2007 09:24 pm |
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OK- I will keep that in mind. We all know how little I know.
Love, Laura
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Lord, please make my will your Will!
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CajunRick
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| Joined: | Fri Sep 29th, 2006 |
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| First Name: | Rick (& Kermie) | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Lifetime Catholic, Latin Rite |
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Posted: Fri Jan 12th, 2007 12:13 am |
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Truthseeker wrote: OK- I will keep that in mind. We all know how little I know.
When it comes to the end times, there is no one who knows any more than you. None of us knows exactly what will happen; we can only trust our loving Savior. If you live every day like it's the last day, it doesn't matter when the last day will come, and it matters even less whether it will be the end of time -- or the end of your personal time.
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Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
Luquette Lane
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Steven Barrett
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| Joined: | Tue Nov 14th, 2006 |
| Location: | Hadley, Massachusetts USA |
| Posts: | 902 |
| First Name: | Steven | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Catholic, Episcopal communicant, Baptist, Catholic |
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Posted: Tue Feb 20th, 2007 05:07 pm |
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This whole "rapture" nonsense is just that: nonsense. Has anybody stopped to think of illogical this foolishness is when stacked up against a respectable Bible and not the Schofield and Darbyesque fiction?
Would a loving Father really subject so many millions of people who aren't taken up to Heaven, to massive crackups, train wrecks, plane crashes, botched operations?
Why do people waste their money on LaHaye's and Jenkins' books when we have a Magisterium to guide us on these matters? Besides, LaHaye is a fallen, albeit clever professional anti-Catholic. That alone, ought to be enough reason to avoid these "Left Behind" "books" like the bubonic plague.
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For anybody interested in reading commentary from a Catholic's socially conservative/fiscally liberal viewpoint, go to my new blog at http://www.politicsramble.com/ .
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Darlene
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| Joined: | Mon Oct 9th, 2006 |
| Location: | Pocono Mountains, Pennsylvania USA |
| Posts: | 868 |
| First Name: | Darlene | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Christian, trusting His love and forgiveness |
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Posted: Tue Feb 20th, 2007 05:46 pm |
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Steven Barrett wrote: This whole "rapture" nonsense is just that: nonsense. Has anybody stopped to think of illogical this foolishness is when stacked up against a respectable Bible and not the Schofield and Darbyesque fiction?
Would a loving Father really subject so many millions of people who aren't taken up to Heaven, to massive crackups, train wrecks, plane crashes, botched operations?
Why do people waste their money on LaHaye's and Jenkins' books when we have a Magisterium to guide us on these matters? Besides, LaHaye is a fallen, albeit clever professional anti-Catholic. That alone, ought to be enough reason to avoid these "Left Behind" "books" like the bubonic plague.
Stephen,
Are you referring to Tim LaHaye, Beverly LaHaye's husband? Never knew he was an ex-Catholic.
Darlene
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The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all. II Corinthians 13:14
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Darlene
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| Joined: | Mon Oct 9th, 2006 |
| Location: | Pocono Mountains, Pennsylvania USA |
| Posts: | 868 |
| First Name: | Darlene | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Christian, trusting His love and forgiveness |
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Posted: Tue Feb 20th, 2007 05:52 pm |
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BTW Esther, I just finished reading "Born Fundamentalist, Born Again Catholic." The last chapter deals with Eschatology, the study of end times. He makes some excellent points in there which expose the erroneous interpretations of end times theology supported by those who hold to premillenialist dispensationalism. And it is very easy reading.
Darlene
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The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all. II Corinthians 13:14
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Steven Barrett
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| Joined: | Tue Nov 14th, 2006 |
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Posted: Wed Feb 21st, 2007 12:50 am |
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Yep, Darlene, LaHaye strayed from the pen many a year ago. Some of his straying had to do with his upbringing. Nevertheless, he's an articulate man, and fully capable of understanding the faith he was baptized into. Trouble is, he still believes in the hogwash about Catholicism he was told many years ago and now he's raking in megabucks with his not-so-subtle jabs at Catholicism in his "Left Behind" cottage industry series of spooking people half to death, or fooling them into thinking they'll be lifted up and leave all their bills, heartburn and earthly troubles behind because they're predestined for that rapturous moment.
In the meantime, the rest of the miscreants, outrageous sinners and assorted scalawags will have to deal with the mess the Rapture left behind.
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For anybody interested in reading commentary from a Catholic's socially conservative/fiscally liberal viewpoint, go to my new blog at http://www.politicsramble.com/ .
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