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JillD
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| Joined: | Fri Sep 29th, 2006 |
| Location: | Visalia, California USA |
| Posts: | 1001 |
| First Name: | Jill | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | heathen, EvFree, Messianic, LC-MS, Catholic 2007 |
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Posted: Sun Oct 5th, 2008 08:42 pm |
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I can't find the reference in the Index of the Catechism. Who or what is the concept of the Antichrist in the Church?
Thanks!
Jill
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"I praise you, for I am wondrously made. Wonderful are our works! My frame was not hidden from you, when I was being made in secret." Ps 139
"Guard me, O Lord, from the hands of the wicked; preserve me from violent men." Ps 140
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David W. Emery
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| Joined: | Fri Sep 29th, 2006 |
| Location: | Brownsville, Texas USA |
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| First Name: | David | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Catholic |
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Posted: Sun Oct 5th, 2008 09:19 pm |
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You can start with the good old Catholic Encyclopedia, Jill. An overview of the Fathers’ take is available at Catholic Answers (scroll down). The only mention of the antichrist in the Catechism is in §675.
David
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JillD
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| Joined: | Fri Sep 29th, 2006 |
| Location: | Visalia, California USA |
| Posts: | 1001 |
| First Name: | Jill | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | heathen, EvFree, Messianic, LC-MS, Catholic 2007 |
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Posted: Sun Oct 5th, 2008 09:37 pm |
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Hmmm.... Those references seem to tell more about what non-Catholic churches think is the Antichrist - namely, the Pope - or to tell what the early Church fathers taught.
So, there's nothing distilled down from all that?
Oh, well..... My friend asked me if the Catholic Church believes in the Antichrist and I said Yes, but now that I'm thinking about it, I ought to clarify for her as she's a pre-trib rapturist. Would I tell her that there is no consensus in the CC about what it is?
Is this quote from the Catholic Encyclopedia about as concise as I'll find?:
The individual person of Antichrist will not be a demon, as some of the ancient writers believed; nor will he be the person of the devil incarnated in the human nature of Antichrist. He will he a human person, perhaps of Jewish extraction, if the explanation of Genesis 49:17, together with that of Dan's omission in the catalogue of the tribes, as found in the Apocalypse, be correct. It must be kept in mind that extra-Scriptural tradition furnishes us no revealed supplement to the Biblical data concerning Antichrist. While these latter are sufficient to make the believer recognize the "man of sin" at the time of his coming, the lack of any additional reliable revelation should put us on our guard against the daydreams of the Irvingites, the Mormons, and other recent proclaimers of new revelations.
He's certainly not as well defined in the CC as he is for a pre-trib rapturist, is he?? Everyone seems to have their own opinion. It's downright protestant-ish!!
Jill
____________________
"I praise you, for I am wondrously made. Wonderful are our works! My frame was not hidden from you, when I was being made in secret." Ps 139
"Guard me, O Lord, from the hands of the wicked; preserve me from violent men." Ps 140
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David W. Emery
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| Joined: | Fri Sep 29th, 2006 |
| Location: | Brownsville, Texas USA |
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Posted: Sun Oct 5th, 2008 10:10 pm |
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He's certainly not as well defined in the CC as he is for a pre-trib rapturist, is he??
No, he’s not. It’s a part of revelation that has not been refined. There are, of course, many Catholic books available on the subject, but these are private opinions, not doctrine. I agree that the passage you cite is probably as good as you are going to find, although I am not personally prepared to accept that the antichrist will be of Jewish origin.
It’s true that the fact that many Protestants and Evangelicals insist that the Catholic Church and/or the pope is the antichrist makes dialogue difficult. On the other hand, to a non-Christian, this very position shows their uncharitable bias, thus weakening their overall denominational claim to definitive Christianity.
In spite of their rhetoric, Protestants have to face the fact that they, not the Catholics, are divided against themselves, as Jesus describes of Satan in Luke 11:14–23 and parallels. Their disunity definitely works against them, especially in heavily mined mission areas. As a result, the various denominations often work out a gentlemen’s agreement to divvy up the region so as not to have to face the “divisions” issue. So the question of who is the antichrist is quite far from being decided in their favor.
David
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Dave Armstrong
Network Apologist
| Joined: | Fri Nov 2nd, 2007 |
| Location: | Melvindale, Michigan USA |
| Posts: | 2445 |
| First Name: | Dave | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Evangelical (1977): Diverse Protestant Influences / Catholic in 1990 |
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Posted: Mon Oct 6th, 2008 05:27 pm |
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Hi Jill,
Here's one of my famous links. It has some info. on the antichrist (articles are further down after the books):
Catholic Commentary and Other Resources on the Interpretation of the Book of Revelation (The Apocalypse)
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I'm happy to offer whatever theological & personal assistance I can. My blog, Biblical Evidence for Catholicism, contains 2100+ papers & web pages (free) & 17 apologetic books (4 sale: 15 E-Books: $25)
http://www.biblicalcatholic.com/
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ChildofGod
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| Joined: | Sat Jul 12th, 2008 |
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| Posts: | 214 |
| First Name: | Darlene | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Christian in the Wilderness |
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Posted: Mon Oct 6th, 2008 05:34 pm |
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A close friend of ours, who was formerly Catholic (even raised by nuns and lived at a Catholic orphanage), showed us a book he had been reading about the end times written by a Catholic priest. Our friend found this book to be very enthralling. I just wish I could remember the name of it. It was written quite some time ago, perhaps at least 40 years ago.
Would anyone have an idea what book this could be. Yeah, I know, not much info to go on.
Darlene
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Dave Armstrong
Network Apologist
| Joined: | Fri Nov 2nd, 2007 |
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Posted: Mon Oct 6th, 2008 05:46 pm |
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Might could be this one:
Antichrist by Vincent P. Miceli (Paperback - Jun 1981)
Buy new: $17.95 $14.00
59 Used & new from $0.80
Get it by Tuesday, Oct 7 if you order in the next 5 hours and choose one-day shipping.
Eligible for FREE Super Saver Shipping.
 (5)
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I'm happy to offer whatever theological & personal assistance I can. My blog, Biblical Evidence for Catholicism, contains 2100+ papers & web pages (free) & 17 apologetic books (4 sale: 15 E-Books: $25)
http://www.biblicalcatholic.com/
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Free
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| Joined: | Wed Nov 28th, 2007 |
| Location: | Michigan USA |
| Posts: | 429 |
| First Name: | Jane | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Presbyterian, Gnostic, non-denominational, Catholic |
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Posted: Mon Oct 6th, 2008 07:25 pm |
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Your "Michiganspeak" made me smile, Dave: "It might could be this one." With the news media elite dissecting how Sarah Palin speaks, I'm more aware of our way of talking, and I like it!
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Dave Armstrong
Network Apologist
| Joined: | Fri Nov 2nd, 2007 |
| Location: | Melvindale, Michigan USA |
| Posts: | 2445 |
| First Name: | Dave | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Evangelical (1977): Diverse Protestant Influences / Catholic in 1990 |
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Posted: Mon Oct 6th, 2008 07:49 pm |
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Well, it's just "silly-speak," more than anything (something I have a long history of). If I ever say or write "might could" you can be assured it is always with tongue-in-cheek: being goofy.
My own dialect is (probably) quite the combination of influences, having grown up in inner-city Detroit and attended a high school downtown (so a bit of Black English), but also the fact that most of my relatives are Canadian, with their more formal way of speaking: more like an English accent (not that I ever picked that up, and I remain very informal, at least in talking).
I write very very different from how I talk, too.
I remember with fondness one time I was in the Smoky Mountains in an Adirondack Hut, up on the Appalachian Trail (in 1980, I think). Someone from the South told me they could tell I was from Michigan. I had never heard that before and said, "we don't have an accent! You guys down South have the accent!" I had no idea what he even heard that was different. He knew I wasn't from the South (obviously), but to actually pick my state surprised and fascinated me.
Since then I've become much more aware that we do have a Michigan dialect. Sarah Palin sort of takes the midwest dialect or accent to the extreme (and quite charmingly, for my money: it sounds "folksy" and very friendly to me), but I think it is noticeable in Michigan, particularly in how we say the long "a" (with a "sharper" direction towards the long "e"). That seems to be a peculiarly northern and midwest phenomenon. I like how my wife says "America": somewhat like Palin: more like "Ameerica". I don't do that (I say "Amairica"), but she does!
I love anything to do with language. I get that, no doubt, from my mother, who majored in languages at MSU and loves Scrabble (where I'm lucky to ever beat her at all), crossword puzzles, and other word games. And being a writer by trade, it nicely ties into that too. I know I didn't acquire it in school, because I hated grammar and English (ironically enough).
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I'm happy to offer whatever theological & personal assistance I can. My blog, Biblical Evidence for Catholicism, contains 2100+ papers & web pages (free) & 17 apologetic books (4 sale: 15 E-Books: $25)
http://www.biblicalcatholic.com/
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Steven Barrett
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| Joined: | Tue Nov 14th, 2006 |
| Location: | Hadley, Absurdistan, AKA , Massachusetts USA |
| Posts: | 1566 |
| First Name: | Steven | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Catholic, Episcopal communicant, Baptist, Catholic |
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Posted: Tue Oct 7th, 2008 12:35 am |
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I'm in a state of total shock and don't know what to believe. You mean Tim LaHaye and Jerry Jenkins aren't telling the truth about the Rapture, Anti-Christ, and the Catholic Church, either? What next? You're going to tell me the Easter Bunny, Bugs Bunny, Elmer Fudd and Harry Potter are all fake, too? You'll really do me in if you tell me Dominic Crossan and the "historical Jesus" movement is full of it and the Da Vinci Code is a myth.
But I have to agree with Dave when it comes to the efficacy of taking english classes in college.
At the end of the day they'll kill off would-be writers' dreams faster than a speeding cliche or the latest buzzwords for which nobody wants to be held accountable for inventing and circulating around in the first place.
Eggheads -- now there's where you'll find your in-crowd for anti-christs.
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James Michael Curley to a young Thomas “Tip” O’Neill -- “Son, it’s nice to be important, but it’s more important to be nice.”
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