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Talithacumi
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| First Name: | Cheri | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Cradle Catholic - Latin Rite |
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Posted: Wed Mar 12th, 2008 01:29 am |
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Marcus wrote: ...Oh, and sadly, our Jersey milk cow died last week, so I'm amazingly freed up!
Marcus,
(OK, I started to respond to this in another forum, but since everyone's always so picky about staying on topic, thought I'd go ahead and change it to a new topic now or risk The Moderators' wrath  .)
I seem to remember an earlier post where you said you were the "worst farmer ever."
Er... I didn't really believe you!  
Anyway... sorry about your cow. 
But this brings me to a question that's always sort of lurked in the back of my mind. OK, I'm not one of these over-the-top animal-rights kind of people who think that "animals are people, too," and I don't believe animals have souls, but yet... it seems that there have been people who have had visions of Heaven and there are animals, plants, trees, etc. Even the bible mentions how the "lion will lie down with the lamb," etc. OK, maybe that's just figurative, but... what about animals? Silly question, I suppose, but if people have visions of pets or other animals in Heaven what is that all about? I can't think of any specific people who've had visions of animals in Heaven, but it seems I've read such things somewhere... and it does seem such a shame to think that once the pet dies it just - isn't - anymore. Do "All Dogs Go to Heaven"(that's meant to be a little bit of a fecetious question, really...)? Just wondering about your take on it (or anyone else's, for that matter). I suppose they really just die and that's it, but it would be nice if there were a "Pet Heaven," eh?
JMJ
- Cheri
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“We do not want a Church that will move with the world; we want a Church that will move the world.”
- G.K. Chesterton
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JillD
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| First Name: | Jill | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | heathen, EvFree, Messianic, LC-MS, Catholic 2007 |
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Posted: Wed Mar 12th, 2008 01:52 am |
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This is from http://www.americancatholic.org/Messenger/Jul2003/Feature2.asp#top
I can post it in parts I guess, it's long, but I thought it was good and gave me hope that we'd see our puppies in Heaven someday. Here it is:
How do we answer children when they ask: "Will I see my little doggy in heaven?" As I see it, this question is not only an urgent concern for the children. I believe that most adults also have a deep desire to know if, in the next life, we will see our pets and all the other lovely creatures alongside whom we now inhabit this planet.
I feel more comfortable, however, if we pose the question a little more broadly: Namely, does God's plan of salvation include all creatures? In the reflections below, I think I have lined up a good bit of evidence—from Scripture, from the example of St. Francis and from the teachings of the Church—which shows that God wishes other creatures besides humans to be included in the plan of salvation. Consider the following:
The creation story of Genesis suggests that God's care and love extend to all creatures. Would not God's very act of creating the earth, as well as the plants and animals, imply an unwritten covenant that the Creator will not suddenly stop loving or caring for them?
The story of Noah's ark leaves little doubt in my mind that God wants all creatures to be saved, not just the humans. For me, the ark is a wonderful symbol of God's desire to save the whole family of creation. The story suggests to me that it is not God's plan to save humankind apart from the other creatures. We are all in the same boat, so to speak. As St. Paul writes to the Romans (8:22), "All creation is groaning" for its liberation.
After the waters of the flood go away, God makes a covenant with all living creatures. The covenant is not simply between God and the humans, but also, as the Bible says, with "all the birds, and the various tame and wild animals....Never again shall all bodily creatures be destroyed by the waters of a flood" (Genesis 9:10-11, italics added).
God's putting a rainbow in the sky emphasizes the point one more time. God tells Noah: "This is the sign of the covenant I have established between me and all mortal creatures that are on earth" (9:17). Isn't it interesting that God takes much more care than we humans to include the animals and other creatures in the plan of salvation?
 The story of Jonah teaches us the "all-inclusive nature" of God's saving love. The amazing mind-set of the Jonah story is that animals participate in God's saving intentions. The Book of Jonah almost reads like a children's story: There's a furious storm at sea. The sailors throw Jonah into the raging water. A big fish swallows the prophet and spits him out on the shore. Jonah has been trying to run far away from the task God has assigned him, namely, to preach to the city of Nineveh. Like his fellow Jews, Jonah despises the people of Nineveh. Jonah does not like the fact that God's saving love includes the likes of them.
The story is really a parable of God's all-embracing love. Significantly, even the animals are included in God's saving plan. When Jonah proclaims that Nineveh will be destroyed because of its sins, the king of Nineveh is very responsive: He announces a fast, which includes not only humans but animals as well: "Neither man nor beast, neither cattle nor sheep, shall taste anything," orders the king. "They shall not eat, nor shall they drink water. Man and beast shall be covered with sackcloth" (3:7-8).
Much to Jonah's disappointment, God's mercy is very inclusive and reaches far beyond the Chosen People. God spares the city from calamity because of its repentance. And the last line of the Book of Jonah clearly reveals that God's saving love extends to all living creatures, not just to humans: "Should I not be concerned," God asks Jonah, "over Nineveh, the great city, in which there are more than a hundred and twenty thousand persons who cannot distinguish their right hand from their left, not to mention the many cattle?" (4:11).
In the Book of Psalms, we find prayers in which other creatures are called upon to praise God along with the humans, suggesting that creatures are meant to share our prayerful journey into the presence of God. These are very inclusive kinds of prayer. Listen to Psalm 148. It is a Hymn of All Creation to the Almighty Creator: "Praise the Lord from the heavens....Praise him, sun and moon; praise him, all you shining stars....Praise the Lord from the earth, you sea monsters and all depths; Fire and hail, snow and mist, storm winds that fulfill his word; You mountains and all you hills, you fruit trees and all you cedars; You wild beasts and all tame animals....Let the kings of the earth and all peoples....Young men too, and maidens, old men and boys, Praise the name of the Lord..." (v. 1-13).
A similar hymn of praise to God is sung by the three youths in the fiery furnace in the Book of Daniel (Chapter 3). In the midst of their distress, they invite the whole family of creation to praise the one Lord of all. Just to give a little sampling of this long hymn, the three youths sing: "Sun and moon, bless the Lord....Every shower and dew, bless the Lord....All you winds, bless the Lord....All you birds of the air, bless the Lord....All you beasts, wild and tame, bless the Lord" (v. 52-81).
Do not biblical prayers of this kind suggest that all of us creatures are meant to walk side by side in one common journey to God? Do these prayers not imply that all creatures are included in God's saving plan?
St. Francis gave us a similar style of prayer. It seems obvious that, when he wrote his "Canticle of the Creatures" (sometimes called "Canticle of Brother Sun"), he based its style of prayer on such passages of Scripture as I just cited.
But he added a special personal touch: He gave the titles of "Brother" and "Sister" to the various creatures, as if to emphasize all the more his heart-warming insight that we all form one family of creation under one loving Creator in heaven. "Sister" and "Brother" are familial terms.
Francis had the amazing intuition that we are not meant to come to God alone, as if in proud isolation from our brother and sister creatures. Rather, we are to form one family with them—and to lift up one symphony of praise to our common Creator.
Last edited on Wed Mar 12th, 2008 02:01 am by JillD
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"I praise you, for I am wondrously made. Wonderful are our works! My frame was not hidden from you, when I was being made in secret." Ps 139
"Guard me, O Lord, from the hands of the wicked; preserve me from violent men." Ps 140
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JillD
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Posted: Wed Mar 12th, 2008 01:54 am |
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More...
Here's a condensed version of St. Francis' canticle:
Wouldn't it seem strange if these sister and brother creatures, who are invited to praise God with us here on earth, are not welcomed to praise God with us in heaven?
All praise be yours, my Lord,
through all that you have made.
And first my lord Brother Sun,
who brings the day....
How beautiful is he, how radiant in
all his splendor!
Of you, Most High,
he bears the likeness.
All praise be yours, my Lord,
through Sister Moon and Stars;
In the heavens you have made them,
bright and precious and fair.
All praise be yours, my Lord,
through Brothers Wind and Air....
All praise be yours, my Lord,
through Sister Water,
So useful, lowly, precious and fair.
All praise be yours, my Lord,
through Brother Fire,
through whom you brighten up the night....
All praise be yours, my Lord,
through Sister Earth, our mother,
Who feeds us...and produces various fruits
With colored flowers and herbs...
Praise and bless my Lord,
and give him thanks,
And serve him with great humility.
Turning to the Gospels, we see how reverently and closely Christ worked with creatures. One thing is clear: The Eternal Word did not hold himself aloof from our created world in his efforts to save it, but literally entered the family of creation at the Incarnation. God made this world his home, thus giving all creatures a whole new dignity.
Jesus interacted very naturally and respectfully with the created world, whether on the lakeshore or in the desert or on a mountainside or crossing a wheat field or the Sea of Galilee. In his preaching of the good news of God's saving love, Jesus easily used images of the birds of the air and the lilies of the field, also foxes, pearls, salt, fig trees, mustard seeds and lost sheep, to name a few.
Jesus used created things in his saving work—wet clay on the eyes of the blind man to bring healing (John 9:6-7). He used the products of wheat and grape—bread and wine—to convey his very presence in the Eucharist.
Finally, after his resurrection, Jesus seemed to leave another hint, near the end of Mark's Gospel, that the whole family of creation is included in God's saving love. After his death and resurrection, he tells his disciples: "Go into the whole world and proclaim the gospel to every creature" (Mark 16:15). Mark doesn't say "to every human being," but "to every creature"!
In the final book of the Bible—the Book of Revelation—the inspired writer presents to us a heavenly vision in which all creatures are standing before the throne of God. Obviously, that glorious gathering is not composed exclusively of saved humanity: "Then I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and in the sea, everything in the universe, cry out: ‘To the one who sits on the throne and to the Lamb be blessing and honor, glory and might, forever and ever'" (Revelation 5:13). In this picture of heaven all creatures are present and praising God together.
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"I praise you, for I am wondrously made. Wonderful are our works! My frame was not hidden from you, when I was being made in secret." Ps 139
"Guard me, O Lord, from the hands of the wicked; preserve me from violent men." Ps 140
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JillD
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Posted: Wed Mar 12th, 2008 01:58 am |
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More...
We take a closer look at the vision of St. Francis of Assisi (1182-1226). If ever there was a saint who took to heart an inclusive and integral vision of salvation, it was this poor little saint. The most important key to Francis' vision—that all creatures are meant to form one family—is the Incarnation.
Francis had a great fascination for the feast of Christmas. Francis was deeply aware of one moment in history, namely the moment that God entered creation and the Word was made flesh.
In his mind, this event sent shockwaves through the whole fabric of creation. The Divine Word not only became human. The Word of God became flesh, entering not only the family of humanity but the whole family of creation, becoming one, in a sense, with the very dust out of which all things are made.
Francis had a keen sense that all creatures—not just humans—were to celebrate the feast of Christmas. Francis' biographers tell us that Francis wanted the emperor to ask all citizens to scatter grain along the roads on Christmas Day so that the birds and other animals would have plenty to eat. Walls, too, should be rubbed with food, Francis said, and the beasts in the stables should also receive a bounteous meal on Christmas Day. By right, all creatures should participate in the celebration of Christmas.
Francis had a clear sense that the saving plan of God, as revealed in the child-Savior born at Bethlehem, was to touch every part of the created world.
Given this vision, it was natural for Francis to take literally Jesus' command in Mark's Gospel to "proclaim the gospel to every creature"—to birds and fish, rabbits and wolves, as well as to humans. Why shouldn't he preach to the animals and birds? St. Francis refused to be a human chauvinist—presuming that he was to be saved apart from the rest of creation.
Our Catholic liturgy supports and mirrors this kind of vision. "Father, you are holy indeed, and all creation rightly gives you praise." These words, which begin Eucharistic Prayer III of the Roman Missal, express wonderfully how the Catholic Christian community includes the whole family of creation in its public rites and prayers of praise.
The Catholic liturgy, with its many sacramental rites, makes abundant use of the created world: water, oil, fire, bread and wine, incense, ashes, palm branches, flowers, candles, stained glass, colored vestments, paintings and images of biblical creatures such as eagles, lions, oxen, serpents and doves.
The Catholic community includes all kinds of created elements in its prayer-journey to God. The spirit of St. Francis seems very much in evidence in Catholic liturgical life.
The world of sound, of course, also plays a part in many Christian liturgies. Psalm 150 serves as a good biblical model for this approach: "Praise [the Lord] with the blast of the trumpet, praise him with lyre and harp, praise him with timbrel and dance, praise him with strings and pipe....Let everything that has breath praise the Lord! Alleluia" (3-6).
Again, it would seem strange if all these created beings, which assist us in worshiping God on earth, are not invited to join us in worshiping God in heaven!
Our Christian teaching about the resurrection of the body also reinforces the idea that our whole created world is included in God's saving plan. Our Christian belief in the resurrection tells of the great significance of our earthly bodies and earthly environment.
At death, our bodies are not discarded like empty shells, as if only our souls are precious and meant to live with God. Not at all. The resurrection affirms that our bodies are precious too and destined to rise again like Jesus' own body.
At one point in the Catholic funeral ceremony, the priest—without saying a word—solemnly walks completely around the casket, gently swinging the censer, allowing clouds of rising incense to honor the bodily remains of the person who died.
This awesome gesture of respect toward our earthly bodies reinforces our central Christian belief that these earthly bodies—and all that they represent—are meant to be transformed and saved as was Jesus' glorified body.
Indeed, our bodies are vitally interconnected with the whole created world. They could not exist one moment without the sun or the oxygen transmitted by plants. We depend, as well, on our environment for water and food, as well as for the minerals that make up these earthly bodies.
Because of the intimate linkage between our bodies and our environment, it's hard to imagine how we can be transformed and saved apart from the rest of creation.
The doctrine of the resurrection of the body seems to assure us that no genuine part of our human or earthly experience will be lost.
And so we come back to our original question—the question our children ask so earnestly: Will I see my little doggy in heaven? The question may sometimes sound a bit naïve and simplistic.
But from all the evidence shown above, I believe we can make a good case for the hope embedded deep in each human heart, namely, that the whole family of creation will someday share in the fullness of salvation won by Jesus Christ.
The more we see the full implications of our belief in the resurrection of the body and understand the biblical vision of God's inclusive love, the easier it is for us to give a hopeful answer to our children's question.
In the final analysis, how many of us are truly satisfied with a vision of heaven that does not include the whole family of creation? We take comfort, therefore, in St. Paul's words that "all creation is groaning" for its freedom and redemption (Romans 8:22). More than that, we embrace the great apostle's "hope that creation itself would... share in the glorious freedom of the children of God" (Romans 8:21).
Jack Wintz, O.F.M., contributing editor of St. Anthony Messenger and a Franciscan friar for over 45 years, is also the author of a children's book, St. Francis in San Francisco (Paulist Press, 2001), which conveys the same Franciscan vision of creation. The book can be ordered through St. Anthony Messenger Press or online at http://www.AmericanCatholic.org. You can learn more about Father Jack at http://www.friarjack.org.
____________________
"I praise you, for I am wondrously made. Wonderful are our works! My frame was not hidden from you, when I was being made in secret." Ps 139
"Guard me, O Lord, from the hands of the wicked; preserve me from violent men." Ps 140
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Dave Armstrong
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Posted: Wed Mar 12th, 2008 09:13 pm |
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As far as I know, animals have no eternal souls, as men do. They aren't created in God's image. They aren't capable of sinning, and so are in no need of salvation, and didn't participate in the fall (of man). But will they be in heaven?
Fr. John A. Hardon, S.J. (who received me into the Church), answered the question as follows:
Pets, as pets, do not go to Heaven. But animals and such like beings may be said to be brought to Heaven because, after the Last Day, they can serve as part of the joys of Heaven. In other words, animals and such like creatures may be said to be brought to Heaven to serve as part of our Heavenly joys. Clearly, we do not need pets to provide happiness in Heaven. But pets and such like creatures will be brought to Heaven to become part of our creaturely happiness in the Heavenly kingdom. Consequently, we may say that animals and such like creatures may be brought to Heaven by God to enable us to enjoy them as part of our creaturely happiness in Heavenly beatitude.
So our own Fido or Bambi may not be there as such, but animals likely will be, on the basis described above. An expert on EWTN answered the question similarly, as follows:
Now when any living thing dies, its soul is separated from its body. In the case of plants and animals the soul goes out of existence. But in the case of man, the soul remains in existence because it is a spiritual or immaterial thing. Consequently, it differs from the souls of animals in two important respects. First, it is the seat of intelligence or reason. For this reason a man is held responsible for his actions in a way that animals are not. . . .
In the light of this essential difference between human beings and animals, it would seem that we would not see the souls of our pets in heaven for the simple reason that they do not have immortal souls and are not responsible for their actions. They do not have the intelligence which allows them to choose either God's will or their own will. There is, then, an incomparable distance, say, between the soul of the sorriest human being who ever lived and the most noble brute animal that ever walked the earth.
Now a child might be heartbroken at the thought that he will never see his pet again. He cannot yet understand this explanation about the difference between the human and the animal soul. I suppose that one could tell the child that when he hopefully gets to heaven, he could ask God to see his old pets if he still wished to. There would be no harm in that. For we know that when a person finally sees God, he will not be concerned with seeing old pets or favorite places but rather will be captured in the complete fulfillment of the joy of which old pets and favorite places are but little signs. We adults know that, even if the child does not. For more information on how the Church sees animals in the lives of human beings, check the Catechism of the Catholic Church 2415-2418.
Bro. Ignatius Mary on AllExperts.com takes the same general position.
Namely, does God's plan of salvation include all creatures?
No. A dog or a tree hasn't rebelled against God. It may receive detrimental effects because of some cosmic damage as a result of sin, but is not itself culpable, and therefore cannot be saved. But the Bible does talk about some sense of the redemption of all creation. This has a meaning other than "dogs need to repent and come to Jesus and the Church." If this were true, every animal imaginable would be required to attend Mass, no?
God loves the animals, as far as that goes, just as we who are made in His image do. That poses no difficulty to Christian theology, but saying that salvation applies to the animal kingdom is erroneous.
Last edited on Wed Mar 12th, 2008 09:15 pm by Dave Armstrong
____________________
I'm happy to offer whatever theological & personal assistance I can. My blog, Biblical Evidence for Catholicism, contains 2000+ papers & web pages (absolutely free) & 16 apologetic books (for sale):
http://www.biblicalcatholic.com/
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Talithacumi
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Posted: Thu Mar 13th, 2008 01:32 am |
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Jill and Dave,
Thank you both for responding to my question. Jill, I see what you're saying about how "All creation is groaning" for its liberation. and God tells Noah: "This is the sign of the covenant I have established between me and all mortal creatures that are on earth" and "Father, you are holy indeed, and all creation rightly gives you praise." These words, which begin Eucharistic Prayer III of the Roman Missal, express wonderfully how the Catholic Christian community includes the whole family of creation in its public rites and prayers of praise.
However, I must agree with Dave when he says that "As far as I know, animals have no eternal souls, as men do. They aren't created in God's image. They aren't capable of sinning, and so are in no need of salvation." (emphasis mine).
I guess it's that last part that kind of gets me. If they aren't capable of sinning, then of course, as Dave says, they aren't in need of salvation. But it's hard to think that one's beloved pet should just completely cease to exist once its life is over.
But then again, maybe that's just sort of a proof of how we humans actually are different than animals. I mean, the fact that we can't imagine death without some kind of an afterlife is kind of indicative of the fact that there must be an afterlife for us humans. If not, then how could we even conceptualize something like that?
Yet animals have no sense of such things. They don't worry about things like time, for instance. They just exist in the moment. They don't "check their watches" or rush around trying to get things done like there's no tomorrow. Maybe we humans do do those things precisely because we aren't made for time. We are made for eternity and so, in our deepest most innermost beings time is sort of a foreign thing for us, so it's sort of an enemy, so to speak.
I guess I just have to content myself with the answer that in the end, once we enter Heaven our happiness will be so complete that we will no longer worry about our pets and how sad it is that they won't go to Heaven (Any sadness would only be on our part if we should miss them. The pets won't really mind; they can't because they no longer exist. Where humans are not made for time, animals are. But then... that leads me back to my original question: if animals are made for time, then how is it that they have been envisioned in the Eternal Heaven?  ).
Well, forgive my rambling, but I'm just trying to sort out my thoughts...
JMJ
- Cheri
____________________
“We do not want a Church that will move with the world; we want a Church that will move the world.”
- G.K. Chesterton
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pam
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Posted: Thu Mar 13th, 2008 02:58 am |
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| OK, let's face it. NO ONE KNOWS! But I'll pick Jill's experts over Dave's experts. After all, we know there are animals in heaven--Jesus is going to return, riding on a horse. And even though my experiences count for nothing, I've been assured through dreams that I'll see my dogs again. I doubt every mosquito, rabbit and ant will be there...but that's very different from animals who have shared a strong loving relationship with their people. Love is powerful, and God is love.
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Free
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Posted: Thu Mar 13th, 2008 11:34 am |
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I love the passage in C.S. Lewis' book The Great Divorce (which is about heaven) when Sarah Smith of Golders Green comes out to meet her husband who has just arrived in heaven, and she is accompanied by two dozen cats, innumerable dogs, birds and horses. The question is asked, "What are all these animals?" and the answer is given, "They are her beasts...Every beast and bird that came near her had its place in her love. In her they became themselves. And now the abundance of life she has in Christ from the Father flows over into them...Redeemed humanity is still young, it has hardly come to its full strength. But already there is enough joy in the little finger of a great saint such as yonder lady to waken all the dead things in the universe to life."
I see this fictional scene, as a lovely fulfillment of Romans 8:18 and 21. "The creation waits in eager expectation for the sons of God to be revealed;" and "the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the glorious freedom of the children of God."
The creatures we love are not in need of salvation from their sins, but from our sin. And if our redemption brings to life our own created bodies, (vs.23) I am left with the hope that our redemption will "spill over" via love to the creatures we loved, "liberating them from the bondage of decay." (vs.21)
The Catechism cautions us from the excess of devotion that humanizes our pets. If we perceive them as animals, made by God and recognize that only we are made in the image of God, we'll be okay. And I fully expect to be a "Sarah Smith of Golders Green" when I come out from heaven to meet the new arrivals, accompanied by all the creatures I've cared for during my years on earth.
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pam
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Posted: Thu Mar 13th, 2008 01:25 pm |
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| Beautifully said, Jane. Thank you. That's an amazing quote from CS Lewis too. I'm going to search out that book today.
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Annie
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Posted: Thu Mar 13th, 2008 03:20 pm |
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The short answer is that, no, animals are not in heaven as they have no souls. We will be participating in the Beatific Vision and hence will have no desire for anything else, including the presence of former pets. The prayers previously mentioned, etc. represent wishful thinking rather than the teaching of the magisterium. This is usually a hard pill for Protestants to swallow, being brought up in a warm and fuzzy kind of theology.
Last edited on Thu Mar 13th, 2008 03:21 pm by Annie
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Annie
Ora et labora
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Tina in Ashburn
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Posted: Thu Mar 13th, 2008 05:56 pm |
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No one knows. The Church has never officially defined this answer. But the typical long-time Catholic understanding, in spite of the warm, fuzzy thing we'd like to hear is that ANIMALS DO NOT GO TO HEAVEN.
We do know: Animals do not have immortal souls. Animals do have a "spirit" that gives them life, differentiating them from dead animals. But this is not an immortal soul, rather a "natural" spirit. So it follows logically that animals do not enjoy a life of eternity like the human soul.
We do know an animal cannot enjoy the Beatific Vision, anymore than the unbaptized dead can.
We can wonder if there is a place of eternal "natural happiness" for the unbaptized who have no personal sin. Does it follow that an animal, which is not capable of being rewarded for a virtuous life, could also be in a place of eternal reward or natural happiness? This is not likely because an animal does not have an immortal soul.
We can wonder what happens to creatures that have been under our authority.
We can wonder what God does with all creation. Does all creation just disappear once it dies? If creation is an extension of God Himself, is there another way of representing what God wrought after all is done, the earth has passed away, and we are in heaven? God created with a purpose. God's creation gives God glory. God put Man in the center of this creation with dominion over it and to serve a purpose for us. Will this relationship with creation completely disappear?
We can wonder if animals and plants are re-represented in heaven as a more glorified version of this expression of God. Animals and plants existed before the fall of Adam and Eve. This garden was created by God as an expression of some facet of His Godliness. Will this representation be more full in another manner at the end of time? In other words what we see as animals and plants in our fallen state and in this vale of tears, might not be the animals and plants in the next life in a form with which we are familiar.
All of God's creation is a pre-figuration, an illustration, a demonstration of some facet of God.
When a beloved pet dies, I grieve. I accept the traditional understanding of the Church that animals do not go to heaven. However I do comfort myself that there may be another representation of this thing that I loved in the next life, be it a transformed illustration of God or whatever it represented. We love what is good. If it was truly good, then it was a facet of God. If it was a facet of God, I will see this representation of God with new eyes in heaven in a form unfamiliar to me in this vale of tears.
The lesson from all of this, dear brothers and sisters, is the admonition to be detached from created things.
Last edited on Thu Mar 13th, 2008 06:00 pm by Tina in Ashburn
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CajunRick
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Posted: Thu Mar 13th, 2008 06:22 pm |
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I'm not aware of any official teaching of the Church indicating whether animals will share the afterlife or not. They certainly will not be "saved" as they have been guilty of no sin, but that doesn't mean they may not be present in some form and for some reason known to God alone. I have always considered the personality sort of a natural manifestation of a person's soul; it's what makes us uniquely us, rather than just a collection of minerals, elements, and electrical impulses. Animals have personalities, too, so I tend to think of a supernatural extension for them as well. I would prefer to think that especially abused animals will have a sort of afterlife that will reward them in some fashion by allowing them to express the love they were unable to express in this life.
But I also readily admit it is wishful thinking on my part. I have no real basis for my beliefs. St. Francis was famous for calling all parts of creation "brother" or "sister" such as "brother sun" and "sister moon" and he did not stop at inanimate objects. A blessing for animals is included in the Book of Blessings, and various animals have been celebrated throughout history.
Here is a prayer for animals from a Franciscan Friars Third Order web site at http://www.franciscanfriarstor.com/stfrancis/stf_blessing_of_animals.htm .
Heavenly Father, our human ties with our friends of other species is a wonderful and special gift from You. We now ask You to grant our special animal companions your Fatherly care and healing power to take away any suffering they have. Give us, their human friends, new understanding of our responsibilities to these creatures of yours. They have trust in us as we have trust in You; We are on this earth together to give one another friendship, affection, and caring. Take our heartfelt prayers and fill Your ill or suffering animals with healing Light and strength to overcome whatever weakness of body they have. ( Here mention the names of the animals needing prayer ) Your goodness is turned upon every living thing and Your grace flows to all Your creatures. Grant to our special animal companions long and healthy lives. Give them good relationships with and if You see fit to take them from us, help us to understand that they are not gone from us, but only drawing closer to You. Grant our petitions through the intercession of good St. Francis of Assisi, who honored You through all Your creatures.
And in the Book of Genesis, God makes clear to Noah that his covenant is with Noah and all living creatures (Gen 9). The Book of Blessings calls for the blessing of individual animals to be done by name, not by species ("Smokey", not "dog"). So I don't believe there is anyproblem with believing that animals will have some type of eternal existence, although certainly nothing resembling the type of place we will have at the foot of God's Throne.
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Dave Armstrong
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Posted: Thu Mar 13th, 2008 06:34 pm |
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But I'll pick Jill's experts over Dave's experts.
There is no need to pit them against each other. All of my experts said it was perfectly possible that there would be animals in heaven. It's a question of what the Church has stated and what is permissible to speculate on, though we have no definite teaching. What we know for sure is that animals have no immortal souls. So it is not intrinsic to their nature that each and every animal has an eternal soul that will live forever. If our pets are in heaven, it'll be because God chose to "recreate" them.
This is what we know for sure, based on Church teaching. I happen to think that there probably will be animals in heaven, based on the principle of analogy and God's love. I would reason as follows:
1) Animals play an important role in human life.
2) Human beings have had a great deal of affection for animals all through history.
3) Heaven is far greater and unimaginable than the sum total of all of our aspirations and dreams and yearnings and hopes in this life.
4) God loves us and wishes us to be joyful and happy and fulfilled for eternity.
5) Since animals and pets have provided some of our happiness on earth, it is plausible to think that God would continue this aspect of life in heaven as well.
6) Sure, in heaven, all we would need is God, but that is also true on earth, in a sense. But since God gives us many (moral) pleasures on the earth that are distinct from He Himself (though all are derived from God and reflect back on Him), then we might posit that He would continue to do so in heaven as well.
Therefore, by analogy and plausibility, extrapolating from this life to the next, I contend (though I cannot know for sure) that the likelihood is that there will be animals in heaven. I highly doubt, however, that every animal that ever lived, let alone our pets, will be in heaven. Whatever animals are there will be by God's choice and design, not because immortal souls are intrinsic to every animal, so that it is assured that each and every one is "saved" (a sort of "animal universalism").
Last edited on Thu Mar 13th, 2008 11:21 pm by Dave Armstrong
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rbo4u2
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Posted: Thu Mar 13th, 2008 06:55 pm |
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CajunRick wrote: I'm not aware of any official teaching of the Church indicating whether animals will share the afterlife or not.
I always did love St. Francis. As an ardent animal lover, I keep hoping. I'm not sure I could be dogmatic either way on this issue. You can bet I lean more to the pro animal side rather than the other around my wife. 
I do have question. In the book of Isaiah we have these verses which many attribute to the time when Christ will reign on earth. Many have mistakenly used it to talk of a thousand year reign which I can't accept. Yet, it is an interesting prophetic picture that, it seems to me, to be a "heavenly view." The scripture says...
Isaiah 11:6 The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them.
Isaiah 65:25 The wolf and the lamb shall feed together, and the lion shall eat straw like the bullock: and dust shall be the serpent's meat. (whatever that means) They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain, saith the LORD."
Now that's not necessarily Fido, or Bozo or Mitzi or Toby or Cricket or Sparky or Cinder or Muffet and Tuffet...all names of pets I or my family have owned...but it indicates animals in heaven, as I see it. And I can't help but wonder about that dumb ass owned by Balaam in the Old Testament. Don't tell me the angel was a ventriloquist. If Jesus can raise the dead, surely Jesus can make a dumb ass talk. (Just look around you)
And who's to say that ass will or won't make it to the heavenly pastures?
I'm certainly not going to rule out the possiblility.
Rich
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Dave Armstrong
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Posted: Thu Mar 13th, 2008 07:58 pm |
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Excellent observation, Rich. I think there may be something to that. If these many passages about a "messianic kingdom" are rightly applied to heaven, then we have direct evidence of animals in heaven. Here are some more of my thoughts and collections of those of others:
Catholic philosopher and apologist Peter Kreeft, in his book, Everything You Ever Wanted to Know About Heaven . . . But Never Dreamed of Asking (San Francisco: Ignatius Press, 1990, 45-46) takes an even more "affirmative" position:
10. Are There Animals in Heaven?
The simplest answer is: Why not? How irrational is the prejudice that would allow plants (green fields and flowers) but not animals into Heaven! [St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa Theologiae, III (Supplement), 91, 5] Much more reasonable is C.S. Lewis' speculation that we will be "between the angels who are our elder brothers and the beasts who are our jesters, servants and playfellows" [That Hideous Strength, p. 378] Scripture seems to confirm this: "thy judgments are like the great deep; man and beast thou savest, O Lord" [Psalm 36:6]. Animals belong in the "new earth" [Revelation 21:1] as much as trees.
C.S. Lewis supposes that animals are saved "in" their masters, as part of their extended family [The Problem of Pain, pp. 138-39]. Only tamed animals would be saved in this way. It would seem more likely that wild animals are in Heaven too, since wildness, otherness, not-mine-ness, is a proper pleasure for us [C.S. Lewis, Miracles, p. 78]. The very fact that the seagull takes no notice of me when it utters its remote, lonely call is part of its glory.
Would the same animals be in Heaven as on earth? "Is my dead cat in Heaven?" Again, why not? God can raise up the very grass [Psalm 90:5-6. If we are "like grass", and we are raised, grass can be raised, too]; why not cats? Though the blessed have better things to do than play with pets, the better does not exclude the lesser. We were meant from the beginning to have stewardship over the animals [Genesis 1:28]; we have not fulfilled that divine plan yet on earth; therefore it seems likely that the right relationship with animals will be part of Heaven: proper "petship". And what better place to begin than with already petted pets? St. Thomas Aquinas, in his treatment of the question, cited above by Peter Kreeft, concludes that neither plants nor animals are "renewed" in heaven after we are resurrected. Kreeft argues, on the other hand, that if plants are in heaven, why not animals, too? I had this thought, myself, when dwelling further on the analogical argument I made above, and before reading Kreeft just now.
The Catechism states:
1027 This mystery of blessed communion with God and all who are in Christ is beyond all understanding and description. Scripture speaks of it in images: life, light, peace, wedding feast, wine of the kingdom, the Father's house, the heavenly Jerusalem, paradise: "no eye has seen, nor ear heard, nor the heart of man conceived, what God has prepared for those who love him." Generally, what goes beyond something we know in this life has some relation to this life, even if remote. The physical things that give us pleasure in this life will (I would contend) also likely be present in some sense in the next. If we have a feeling of awe in viewing a gorgeous mountain panorama or beautiful sunset or lovely cloud pattern with the sun streaming through (and Kreeft and others have constructed an "argument from longing" as one evidence that heaven and eternal life exist), then how is it implausible to think that heaven would likewise have "nature" in it?
After all, we'll be physical creatures in our resurrected bodies. And the physical world we know, that we inhabit, is the world of nature and plants and animals and rocks and streams and oceans (sometimes very beautiful). By analogy, therefore, one can reason (as did Kreeft), that "if plants and trees are in heaven, why not also animals?"
Do we know that there is any such physical life in heaven, from Scripture? Yes. The heavenly city of Jerusalem, see by St. John in his visions had many kinds of jewels in it (Rev 21:15:21): jasper, gold, sapphire, agate, emerald, onyx, carnellian, chrysolite, beryl, topaz, chrysoprase, jacinth, and amethyst. These are all, of course, part of nature, and earthly elements. "Pearl" is mentioned in 21:21, and this is produced by a living creature (shelled mollusks, such as oysters or mussels). A pearl is constructed by these animals from nacre, or mother of pearl, which is itself partly organic.
We also know there are rivers, trees, and fruit:
Revelation 22:1-2 Then he showed me the river of the water of life, bright as crystal, flowing from the throne of God and of the Lamb through the middle of the street of the city; also, on either side of the river, the tree of life with its twelve kinds of fruit, yielding its fruit each month; and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations. To the extent that this is to be interpreted literally (it may be wholly or partly symbolic), we know that there is organic plant life in heaven, and so by analogy, why not also animals?, since trees and plants no more have an eternal soul than animals do, yet here they are in heaven, by God's design.
For somewhat related material, see my posts on vegetarianism:
The Christian Perspective on Vegetarianism
Dialogue on the Ethics of, and Biblical Support for, Vegetarianism
(+ Parts Two / Three) (vs. Sogn Mill-Scout)
Jesus, Vegetarianism, Bambi, and Us (vs. Keith Akers)
Last edited on Thu Mar 13th, 2008 08:05 pm by Dave Armstrong
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rbo4u2
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Posted: Thu Mar 13th, 2008 08:03 pm |
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Ahhh....there's hope for us animal lovers.
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pam
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Posted: Thu Mar 13th, 2008 09:21 pm |
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