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Michael Ewing
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Posted: Tue Jan 1st, 2008 04:51 am |
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A subject that seems to come up a lot among evangelical protestants is the rapture theory. It seems as though this is a primary piece of doctrine in some denominations, and given the number of former evangelicals on here, I was curious about a few things.
First and foremost, does the Church have a position on this topic, or have a preference in how this subject is addressed? Obviously, the Second Coming is near and dear to all of our hearts, but I'm not sure if He will come back via the rapture.
Secondly, for the former evangelicals, how did the rapture theory fit into your previous understanding of faith, and how do you feel about it now that you have converted? Did you ever embrace it, or do you continue to do so now that you are Catholic?
I'll admit that this stuff has scared the crap out of me in the past, and I am still God fearing, but I guess my position is that if I am where I need to be with my faith when the second coming occurs, I will get to avoid some or all of the horrors of the tribulation anyways, right?
Is this just a hot ticket item because it's controversial and kind of archaic, or is this something that needs to be addressed?
On one hand, I think there are folks who place too high an emphasis on Revelation and Daniel, among others, as opposed to the Gospels, and on the other hand, there are Catholics (like my father, for example), who "don't even want to go there" on that subject. Some have gone as far as ignoring or almost disregarding the Revelation of John. Where is the happy medium?
Hopefully this will stir up some good conversation. I am looking forward to all of your insight!
____________________
"Jesus said to him : I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me" - John 14:6
"Let us not grow tired of doing good, for in due time we shall reap our harvest, if we do not give up" - Gal 6:9
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caticle
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Posted: Tue Jan 1st, 2008 10:22 am |
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Being a Southern Baptist and still learning about the Catholic faith, I am very interested in this topic as well. I've grown up being taught how the saved will be taken up in The Rapture and this will be before all the bad things happen on earth (pre-tribulation). If you believe in "once saved, always saved", it's not scary at all. And how handy that I was Baptist and was going to be safe in heaven when the tribulation comes, right?
Long before my more recent interest in the Catholic faith, I had huge doubts about my own salvation in the sense of 'always saved'. It just seemed way too easy to be Baptist. I mean how convenient that all we seemingly had to do was to accept Christ as our personal Saviour, try to live a good, Christian life and be spared all the bad stuff about the end of the world. When I would dare voice my doubts out loud, my friends would be horrified that I would be so doubtful and not have faith. Everything depended on my faith that all this would happen like the church taught it would.:?
I'm interested in hearing more.
Cat
(edited a couple of sentences for clarification)
Last edited on Tue Jan 1st, 2008 10:24 am by caticle
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catholic
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Posted: Tue Jan 1st, 2008 11:53 am |
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caticle wrote:
Being a Southern Baptist and still learning about the Catholic faith, I am very interested in this topic as well. I've grown up being taught how the saved will be taken up in The Rapture and this will be before all the bad things happen on earth (pre-tribulation). If you believe in "once saved, always saved", it's not scary at all. And how handy that I was Baptist and was going to be safe in heaven when the tribulation comes, right?
Long before my more recent interest in the Catholic faith, I had huge doubts about my own salvation in the sense of 'always saved'. It just seemed way too easy to be Baptist. I mean how convenient that all we seemingly had to do was to accept Christ as our personal Saviour, try to live a good, Christian life and be spared all the bad stuff about the end of the world. When I would dare voice my doubts out loud, my friends would be horrified that I would be so doubtful and not have faith. Everything depended on my faith that all this would happen like the church taught it would.:?
I'm interested in hearing more.
Cat
(edited a couple of sentences for clarification)
My Protestant background (and the majority of Protestants) don't teach the "rapture." I have always been a bit puzzled by the Scripture quotes that are used to justify that teaching, especially Matthew 24 where it is written: "For as it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man." ...and goes on to speak about those taken (swept up) by the flood.
Those that were swept up "as in the time of Noah" were destroyed, the righteous were "left behind."
When I think of rapture, I think of the rap song by Blondie.  I get a chuckle when I see a car with a Rapture bumper sticker. The "Left Behind" books are decidedly ant-Catholic. 
____________________
"A teacher who is not dogmatic is simply a teacher who is not teaching."
Gilbert K. Chesterton
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Bill Kirscher
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Posted: Tue Jan 1st, 2008 12:24 pm |
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I had never heard of the "rapture" until I started going to "Evangelical" churches (which from what I've observed, seem to stem mostly from the Baptist tradition) and the teaching was a significant player in my reversion. I was very puzzled because as a cradle Catholic, I had never heard of it. Someone justified it mostly by a verse that says something to the effect "and then we will meet him in the sky" (don't know the exact verse).
Having never heard the teaching, I questioned it and began to study it in more detail. I discovered the teaching is only a couple hundred years ago, started primarily by a man named Darby. It's recent popularity can be attributed to the "Left Behind" series which are authored by strong anti-Catholics.
There are many books reveal the truth about this false teaching. The two I read originally were "The Rapture: Will Catholics be Left Behind" by Carl E. Olson and "The Rapture Trap" by Paul Thigpen. The most recent book I read was by "The Bible Answer Man" Hank Hannegraff, titled "The Apocalypse Code". Hank was a well respected "Bible Authority" among Evangelicals until he came out with this book.
I'm running out of time and have to go but will respond later with more info.
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CajunRick
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Posted: Tue Jan 1st, 2008 01:00 pm |
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The answer to this question is quite simple. As commonly expressed, Catholics do not believe in a "Rapture". Of course, it really depends on what you mean by "Rapture". It's not a scriptural concept, so it has been interpreted many ways.
Catholic belief is that Jesus Christ will return only once, on the last day, and at that time the dead will rise (the "resurrection of the dead") and be judged for the last time.
An explanation of Catholic beliefs regarding the "Rapture" and the end times is available in this Faith Fact and this Faith Fact from Catholics United for the Faith; in this tract from Catholic Answers; in this web site from Scripture Catholic; in this article from Crisis Magazine; in this article from This Rock magazine; and in this response from EWTN. I could go on, but I think this is enough.
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Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
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wisdomseeker
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Posted: Sat Jan 5th, 2008 08:00 pm |
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| if you never heard. try to watch youtube-tim staples- rapture. it is a great video. he was an evangelical until he came into the CC. now he teaches in the church. He also believed on the rapture, not anymore.
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CajunRick
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Posted: Sat Jan 5th, 2008 08:52 pm |
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wisdomseeker wrote: if you never heard. try to watch youtube-tim staples- rapture. The URL of the presentation is http://youtube.com/watch?v=2kMCwzJ2aY0. It cannot be embedded by request of the poster.
This is a commercial video series from St. Joseph Communications. Anyone know if it is posted with permission?
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Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
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tedjenczewski
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Posted: Sat Jan 5th, 2008 09:24 pm |
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| I think most of the fundamentalist teaching on the rapture comes from Mathew 24. Some of the fundamentalests REALLY get carried away with all sorts of prophetic teaching on the subject. Then they proceed to decry the Catholic Church for proclaiming the "traditions of men" while they say they hold faithfully to "sola scriptura".
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"...the church of the living God, the pillar and bulwark of the truth." 1Tim 3, 15
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Michael Ewing
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Posted: Tue Jan 8th, 2008 03:28 am |
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I am well aware of the Left Behind series. BTW, in case I haven't mentioned it, my wife is the store manager of our local B Dalton (subsidiary of Barnes and Noble) bookstore.
I was well aware of the rapture prior to those books coming out. These books definitely brought this topic into the public's eye, no doubt.
I remember checking out a movie from the public library as a kid, probably around 1990 or so, called "Thief in the Night." Anyone see this? I think it was actually produced in Iowa, now that I think of it. It was put out in the 70s, I believe.
I guess I don't know what to believe, you just hate to be wrong. I guess if I was to go to heaven and my soul was in the right place, it would be irrelevant because I would get "swept up" or whatever alongside all of the believing Christians. A metaphor I think of, since we were on the topic of football earlier, is wild card contention in the NFL, late in the season. So many teams have to depend on other teams losing in order to get into the playoffs, if they'd have just WON a few more games, it wouldn't matter. In other words, if you are a good Christian and on the path to heaven, if there happens to be a rapture, you're obviously going to be a part of it.
The thing that I find interesting is that people can't even agree on when and how and whatever will supposedly happen, which to me, is an indictment of the whole concept. I have a friend who I spoke to this weekend who is an "independent fundamentalist baptist" whatever that means, and he says "we're pre-trib." I'm not trying to mock him, but it's interesting that they have their own jargon for this stuff.
I was just curious when I first posted this, how you former evangelicals that did believe in this concept were able to justify leaving that belief behind?
One of the big ironies that just occurred to me as I wrote this, is that many evangelical churches I have seen on TV or wherever, there seems to be less focus on what happened on the Cross, because it's ancient history and they have already dealt with that and are "eternally secure," so they seem to focus so greatly on the possibility of something like the rapture occurring.
Question, while we are on the subject, does anyone else feel like what you're reading in Revelation is mostly historical, or prophecy? Alot of it reads historically to me, probably because alot of it's written in the past tense. I don't know. I'm no scholar.
Good thread, thanks for the great discussion, folks. That was fun!
 Mike
____________________
"Jesus said to him : I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me" - John 14:6
"Let us not grow tired of doing good, for in due time we shall reap our harvest, if we do not give up" - Gal 6:9
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DrDave
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Posted: Tue Jan 8th, 2008 03:54 am |
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For a good treatment of what is taught by the Church with regard to the end times, contrasted with how to use the bible to defend against common Protestant notions of the Rapture etc, I recommend a FREE audio from John Martinoni's web site "Bible Christian Society" called, strangely enough, "The Rapture & The Bible" (How original is that) It's available as mp3 download or they will send you a CD or cassette tape (did I mention it's FREE)
Regards Doc
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Free
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Posted: Tue Jan 8th, 2008 08:44 am |
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The clicher for me in giving up the premillenial view of church history and the pre-tribulation hope for Christians was seeing that the rapture theory requires two Second Comings of Christ, and nowhere in the Bible are we told that he will come twice. And now that I'm a Catholic, secure in the Church, I'm alert for the Second Coming, as Jesus exhorted us to be, yet no longer trying to fit every new circumstance in the political world to Bible prophecy. When the opportunity arises in conversations with my many Protestant friends, I encourage them to read the book of Revelation with new eyes, noticing all the passages that refer to the worship of God in heaven. I tell them that in the Catholic Church, we join with that heavenly worship during the Mass.
In my view, there is almost an idolotrous lust that drives a person deeper and deeper into trying to fit together prophecies from Daniel, Joel, Zechariah, Revelation and other books of the Bible. That drive, that lust, that makes a person almost exult in bad things happening in the world, because it "proves" that the end times are near. I was caught up in that lust, and as I think back to it, I believe it shows the spirit of the evil one, rather than the spirit of Christ.
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Michael Ewing
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Posted: Wed Jan 9th, 2008 04:44 pm |
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Free wrote: The clicher for me in giving up the premillenial view of church history and the pre-tribulation hope for Christians was seeing that the rapture theory requires two Second Comings of Christ, and nowhere in the Bible are we told that he will come twice. And now that I'm a Catholic, secure in the Church, I'm alert for the Second Coming, as Jesus exhorted us to be, yet no longer trying to fit every new circumstance in the political world to Bible prophecy. When the opportunity arises in conversations with my many Protestant friends, I encourage them to read the book of Revelation with new eyes, noticing all the passages that refer to the worship of God in heaven. I tell them that in the Catholic Church, we join with that heavenly worship during the Mass.
In my view, there is almost an idolotrous lust that drives a person deeper and deeper into trying to fit together prophecies from Daniel, Joel, Zechariah, Revelation and other books of the Bible. That drive, that lust, that makes a person almost exult in bad things happening in the world, because it "proves" that the end times are near. I was caught up in that lust, and as I think back to it, I believe it shows the spirit of the evil one, rather than the spirit of Christ.
I totally agree about what you said in the first paragraph, regarding tying everything that happens in the news to prophecy. It is almost paranoia.
Regarding your second paragraph, you hit the nail on the head, I've never thought about it before. There seems to be such an overwhelming need to be able to say "See! I told you so!" It's almost as if those books you mentioned overshadow the Gospels.
There seems to be this great distraction going on, everyone focusing on something that no one can agree on whether or not it will happen or when (the rapture).
Also, I never thought about what you said about the rapture theory requiring 2 second comings. That pretty much answers that.
Good stuff. Thanks for the insight.
Mike
____________________
"Jesus said to him : I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me" - John 14:6
"Let us not grow tired of doing good, for in due time we shall reap our harvest, if we do not give up" - Gal 6:9
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Free
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Posted: Wed Jan 9th, 2008 06:26 pm |
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Glad I could help.
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Dave Armstrong
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Posted: Wed Jan 9th, 2008 11:33 pm |
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I recently compiled a collection of links that deal with this topic:
Five Myths About the Rapture (Carl E. Olson)
Lahaying the Rapture on Thick (Carl E. Olson)
Recycled Rapture (Carl E. Olson)
No Rapture for Rome: The Anti-Catholics behind the Best-selling Left Behind Books (Carl E. Olson)
The Rapture (Catholic Answers)
The Second Coming (John Salza)
Daniel, Revelation, and the Rapture Myth (Deacon Paul Carlson)
Questioning the "Left Behind" Rapture (David M. Bristow)
Endtimes, Millennium, Rapture (Colin B. Donovan, STL)
____________________
I'm happy to offer whatever theological & personal assistance I can. My blog, Biblical Evidence for Catholicism, contains 2000+ papers & web pages (absolutely free) & 16 apologetic books (for sale):
http://www.biblicalcatholic.com/
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brian
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Posted: Thu Jan 10th, 2008 03:26 am |
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I have seen a Thief in the Night and the sequels. I was shown them in a private school in 8th grade. Entertaining and scary. I will say that it may have had a psotive influence on me per se. I mean, the reality that Jesus is going to return and that we want to be sure we know him is a true and effective message even if the theological details are poor.
What makes me upset about this concept, is how little I was told regarding the fact that the belief was relatively new, and that it was relatively a mall % of Christians that believed it. I felt like it was not an option but mandatory part of our faith. So, I acepted it almost as if by force. Our church would hire biblicalexperts on end times prohecy like Jimmy De Young. Our pastor did entire series on the book of Daniel very much geared to interpreting end times events. All well intentioned but not all sides being fairly presented.
I think I left this view behind before leaving the evangelical church. But maybe not with confidence until I found other views being well presented. I was lucky that there were some people and pastors at my church that did not believe it, so it helped me see that it must not be so black and white, and I got courage to question it in my own mind.
So, I did not have to shed this belief, and it was probably a relief that I did not have to accept it as a Catholic.
It seems silly to me at times. That we could make these movies and nooks predicting everything and people will have no clue when the exact thing happens in life. I mean, I know there hearts will be hard, but it seems tough to believe we can predict the end that clearly and that if millions of people diappreared randomly as predicted by these books in our information age, I think it would almost be too obvious what is going on.
Also, the bible seems to say so little about this. I could not believe how much the theory seems pieced together based on this verse here. This verse there. Mix with this. It never comes out and says anything too much like what they predict.
What makes you crazy is when they actually can somewhat accurately predict things that apear to be fulfillment of prophecy and look toward things happening in the world today. Sometimes I still wonder in my dark moments..maybe they have something. They talk about the ten kings and the European Union. A peace treaty with Israel. A mark that all will need to buy and trade with.
I have come to the conclusion that maybe some of the details and prophecies are going to be fulfilled in our lifetime before the end. But I think we can not know, and the idea is to be ready and have the oil in the lamp.
Anyway, another thing I think weird of their view is when they mention a temple (Ezekial passages I believe, maybe others) rebuilt where sacrifices wil be restored during the millenial reign (which we think already exists) Now, why with Christ reigning as king would they need to restore animal sacrifice? Others argue that these sacrifices will be sort of aperfect sacrifice that points back to Jesus and the cross. Yet they seem to think the idea of the mass is incorrect.
The problem I find, is that the bible seems to be very detailed at times and poetic at times, and it seems they want to find very literal interpretations of a lot of these passages, that I think many are speaking in a different genre, or have been fulfilledi n some way. For instance, when Jesus talks about fleeing wheb we see these things coming, and how this generation will not pass until the end comes...many think the conditions of the fall of Jeruslaem in AD 70 and the destroying of the temple fulfills these things mostly if noy entirely.
Anyway, I am rambling.
Brian
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Intercessor
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Posted: Thu Jan 10th, 2008 04:20 am |
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Michael Ewing wrote:
I was just curious when I first posted this, how you former evangelicals that did believe in this concept were able to justify leaving that belief behind?
Premillennialism
Postmillennialism
Amillennialism
Then the famous Panmillennialism--It will all pan out in the end.
Mike, when I was sixteen, my daddy (fundamentalist Baptist preacher) gave me a Pilgrim Bible which contained extensive footnotes in support of premillennial dispensationalism. He had Walvoord's books, among others, and presented countless sermons and lectures on the material. Even as a teenager, I was unable to swallow the identification of all the strange creatures and events in Revelation. When I married, my new in-laws were big believers in amillennialism. During my young adulthood I gradually decided to focus on the following where Revelation was concerned:
1. the beautiful Christology
2. the lessons for individuals, as well as for churches, in the seven letters
3. God's sovereign majesty
4. the battle between good and evil
5. the fact that we already know who will win
6. the beauty and reverence of "Holy, Holy, Holy" around the throne of God
7. the awareness of the martyrs in heaven
All the detailed identifications of periods, items, creatures, events sort of left me bored and unpersuaded.
Mike, your question above is a very important one for anybody coming into or back to the Church. I justify leaving behind any belief that is not in alignment with what the Catholic Church teaches. It's that simple and that complete. I don't have to be "the pope" in my Sunday School class anymore. I can confidently trust the Magisterium, guided by the Holy Spirit.
Why would I even think about putting my intelligence and education up against those of persons like John Paul II and Benedict XVI? I can't tell you what peace and joy it is having those things decided (and studied, researched, explored, analyzed) by the world's best Catholic scholars. God protects His Church from doctrinal error. I can trust her teachings.Last edited on Thu Jan 10th, 2008 04:30 am by Intercessor
____________________
"The perfection of a soul may be measured by the degree to which it does the will of God, and finds its happiness in doing it.... O my God,...the only thing necessary is Your holy will," Divine Intimacy, pp. 15-16 Father Gabriel, O.C.D.
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brian
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Posted: Thu Jan 10th, 2008 05:47 am |
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Scott Hahn has a book interpreting the book of revelation to be a decription of the mass, and us as participating in the worship of heaven. It is called the Lamb's Supper. He does not suppose that there are not other possbilities and interpreatations worth noting, but he deifnitely makes it seem like quite a Catholic book.
You have the liturgical worship of heaven (Holy Holy Holy. as said in the mass) incense, prayers of the saints, and a wedding feast of sorts. "Behold the Lamb."
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CajunRick
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Posted: Thu Jan 10th, 2008 12:00 pm |
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brian wrote: They talk about the ten kings and the European Union.
Or do they take existing circumstances and twist them to make them fit scripture? How many times in history have there been ten kings? Most of the countries of Europe don't have kings; they're democracies. So calling them "kings" is already twisting things.
And if you look at the world's dictators as "kings" there are a lot more than ten of them. Of course, you could look at economic powerhouses like the G-8, add China dn India, and you have ten "kings" of economic growth.
But 500 years ago you could have picked the ten countries that were exploring the New World. A thousand years ago you probably could have named ten patriarchs of the Orthodox Church, or the ten most important principalities of Europe. They all would have been just as plausible.
And what difference would it make? Jesus will come in 20 years or so if I'm lucky. That's my life expectancy. But I'm ready if he comes tomorrow. You probably have 50 years. Our Church teaches us to be ready whenever he comes.
____________________
Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
Luquette Lane
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Michael Ewing
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Posted: Sat Jan 12th, 2008 12:54 am |
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Awesome stuff you guys, thanks for sharing. I agree with what was said about this topic seeming to be a very key piece of doctrine for some churches. I had the opportunity to spend several hours in a vehicle with a good friend of mine on the way to Chicago debating some of these topics. He's a great guy, very intelligent, but very stiff on these beliefs. He's independent fundamentalist baptist (say that 5 times fast). He says "oh, our church, we're pre-trib." There is all this jargon. Funny. I said "if the rapture occurs, then I have nothing to worry about, I don't understand why you focus so hard on this stuff." Focus on Christ, the rest will fall into place. Anyways, I also found it ironic that they believe the rapture will occur prior to the tribulation. How convenient. If it occurs, I hope it occurs then too!
Anyways, thanks for all your insight. I just got a copy of the Lamb's Supper a few days ago, it's in my "on-deck circle" pile of books. Currently reading : Surprised by Truth. Wonderful stuff. Oh, and most importantly, currently reading : The Word of God via the Bible and catechism in a year challenge. So far, so good!
Anyways, keep praying for me for clarity and wisdom. Thank you!
Mike
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"Jesus said to him : I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me" - John 14:6
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Candlemass
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| Joined: | Tue May 1st, 2007 |
| Location: | Hudson, Ohio USA |
| Posts: | 465 |
| First Name: | Mark | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Catholic, AOG, Baptist, non - denominational, Anglican, RCC for life! |
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Posted: Wed Jan 23rd, 2008 02:42 pm |
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catholic wrote: caticle wrote:
My Protestant background (and the majority of Protestants) don't teach the "rapture." I have always been a bit puzzled by the Scripture quotes that are used to justify that teaching, especially Matthew 24 where it is written: "For as it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man." ...and goes on to speak about those taken (swept up) by the flood.
Those that were swept up "as in the time of Noah" were destroyed, the righteous were "left behind."
When I think of rapture, I think of the rap song by Blondie. I get a chuckle when I see a car with a Rapture bumper sticker. The "Left Behind" books are decidedly ant-Catholic.
The majority don't teach it? It is taught at all AoG churches, Moody Bible Church teaches it through their radio broadcasts, most Protestant tv preachers teach this. I would qualify that by saying most Presbyterians don't teach it, but many Protestans do.
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CajunRick
Network Helper
| Joined: | Fri Sep 29th, 2006 |
| Location: | Houma, Louisiana USA |
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| First Name: | Rick (& Kermie) | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Lifetime Catholic, Latin Rite |
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Posted: Wed Jan 23rd, 2008 03:25 pm |
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Candlemass wrote: The majority don't teach it? It is taught at all AoG churches, Moody Bible Church teaches it through their radio broadcasts, most Protestant tv preachers teach this. I would qualify that by saying most Presbyterians don't teach it, but many Protestans do.
Mainstream Protestant denominations such as Lutherans, Anglicans, Presbyterians, Methodists, etc., do not subscribe to the "Rapture" theory, and they are by far the majority of Protestants world-wide. Many evangelical and fundamentalist Protestants in the US do subscribe to this teaching, but even though they are the loudest Protestants, they are still in the minority.
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Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
Luquette Lane
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Dave Armstrong
Network Apologist
| Joined: | Fri Nov 2nd, 2007 |
| Location: | Melvindale, Michigan USA |
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| First Name: | Dave | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Evangelical (1977): Diverse Protestant Influences / Catholic in 1990 |
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Posted: Wed Jan 23rd, 2008 07:07 pm |
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| The Rapture is part of dispensationalist theology, which is a minority position, even among evangelical Protestants. There just happen to be many of those who are active on TV and radio, so that people may get the impression that they represent the "mainstream" Protestant position.
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