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rbo4u2
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| Joined: | Tue Jan 16th, 2007 |
| Location: | Sunnyvale, California USA |
| Posts: | 475 |
| First Name: | Rich | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Formerly Christian & Missionary Alliance then became Presbyterian |
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Posted: Fri Mar 28th, 2008 05:28 pm |
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Pretty soon we'll see all the nut cases inviting David Icke and his "Lizard People", alien invasion, illuminati conspiracy theories to their conferences.
Doo, doo dooo doo.
Attachment: head.gif (Downloaded 27 times)
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lifetone
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| Joined: | Mon Feb 4th, 2008 |
| Location: | Harrisburg, Pennsylvania USA |
| Posts: | 104 |
| First Name: | Anne | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Methodist, Baptist, Wiccan/New Age, Pentecostal, Catholic |
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Posted: Fri Mar 28th, 2008 05:44 pm |
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Hi Steve.. Well, like I said used to be my church. I am now Catholic as of a week ago!!
Also you must understand how entwined this is. I did talk to several of my friends about this and basically a lot of them also disagree with these doctrines but go along to get along and ... it's a mess. Anyway, I believe the rapture doctrine will one day be a footnote in history. I pray to Almighty God that it not do too much damage in the meantime.
God is in control.. I pray for all those in authority - especially when I don't agree with them.
Maybe it was wrong of me but even now ... if I have something wrong with the Church's teaching I'm much more inclined to take it before God and let Him handle it - trusting that He will or He'll let me know if there's something I can do.. Not that I have serious issue at this particular point in time with any of the Church's teachings. I do ask Him for wisdom about things but not in this horrified sort of way. Being a Catholic is so peaceful that way actually.
Mike, oh I know! It wasn't meant badly toward you. I meant only that ... hrm ... I'm trying to be diplomatic about this issue. I'll pray for you.
I like what the one article said about neo-Gnosticism in relation to this doctrine. Spot-on, with all the errors and dangers associated with that kind of system. And I'd been raised to think that the Catholic Church were the paganized ones. :,,,,(
Okay I'm feeling better.. It's been a week now. I'm no longer having this feeling like someone is going to come along and be like you are not worthy to belong to the Church!! Well okay maybe I'm not but His grace is sufficient even for me, right? Lord I am not worthy to receive you but only say the word and I shall be healed.
If anyone has anything good on the 4 last things please let me know. I think that's what I'd like to read up on next. Thanks!
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NorthStar
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| Joined: | Sat Mar 15th, 2008 |
| Location: | Wisconsin USA |
| Posts: | 105 |
| First Name: | Chuck | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Roman Catholic, Evangelical, Orthodox |
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Posted: Sat Mar 29th, 2008 03:44 pm |
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Didi wrote: I've heard a couple of interesting comments by Catholic priests regarding the rapture.
The first is that non-Catholics long for Jesus to come back to experience His "Real Presence." As Catholics, we already experience His Real Presence at every Mass and anytime we visit Jesus in the Tabernacle or during Eucharistic adoration. We have Him with us all the time, so there isn't this "hunger" for Him to come again.
I came to the very same understanding some years back. In fact it was during my first Holy Week and Paschal celebration. I felt like I was not just "remembering" these events, but as if I was literally there, in 1st century Judea watching, and participating in the events of Holy Week. Christ had never seemed more real to me before. It wasn't until months later that I read what I felt, and sensed was actually the Orthodox theology of Holy Week.
when I was a protestant, wrapped up in the whole end times, John Hagee rapture stuff, I LONGED for Jesus to come back because He seemed so far away to me. That first Holy Week, changed that, and of course with the Holy Eucharist, as you said Christ is always with us. So I definitely think there is much truth to that statement.
Of course I'm not saying Protestants don't experience Christ, because they do, but for The Apostolic Churches it's just, somehow, different. 
Chuck
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NorthStar
Member
| Joined: | Sat Mar 15th, 2008 |
| Location: | Wisconsin USA |
| Posts: | 105 |
| First Name: | Chuck | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Roman Catholic, Evangelical, Orthodox |
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Posted: Sat Mar 29th, 2008 03:47 pm |
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Just wanted to add another book to the reading list for anyone who wants to, its called A Second look at the Second Coming by TL Frazier.
http://www.amazon.com/Second-Look-Coming/dp/1888212144
It is IMO the best book on the subject written in modern times. And he writes it with a sense of humor as well. Which makes it not only informative, but fun as well!
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lifetone
Member
| Joined: | Mon Feb 4th, 2008 |
| Location: | Harrisburg, Pennsylvania USA |
| Posts: | 104 |
| First Name: | Anne | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Methodist, Baptist, Wiccan/New Age, Pentecostal, Catholic |
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Posted: Mon Mar 31st, 2008 12:04 pm |
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Hi Didi and NorthStar, wow, talk about gift with purchase.. It's funny but at first I wanted to say that having participated in Communion makes me want the Second Coming more than ever - but then I think yes ... in a holy way. It takes away the hunger for it for myself - pretty much completely but increases my desire for it for everyone and for Him. In fully believing that He is fully manifest I long all the more for Him to be fully manifest while feeling more sure than ever that He will give us all we need while He waits as long as it takes for as many as possible to be saved.
It puts that desire in right order. This must be why Jesus gave us the Eucharist as the proper way to remember Him - to long for Him while having zero doubt that He is with us right now.
It is hard for me to talk about this actually but I think the problem is not having Him present leads to an inordinate desire for a physical presence which overwhelms all our good intentions spiritually. Maybe that explains a lot of these weird unscriptural doctrines like the rapture. Huh.. So there is a reason for these things.
Lord have mercy.. On those leaders who denied the real presence and broke off from the Catholic Church and left their people this legacy. Anne
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Steven Barrett
Member
| Joined: | Tue Nov 14th, 2006 |
| Location: | Hadley, Massachusetts USA |
| Posts: | 1185 |
| First Name: | Steven | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Catholic, Episcopal communicant, Baptist, Catholic |
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Posted: Mon Mar 31st, 2008 05:14 pm |
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What little black helicopter did Lizard Man jump out of Tim LaHaye's, Rush Limbaugh's, Joel Rosenberg's and John Hagee's front yards? Maybe he was making a drop for El RUSHbo.
I like all your points, especially about the difference between having to deal with dreaming up pseudo messianical "real presences" out of plain wish-making exercises, not to mention really going off into theological la la land awaiting this Psy-fi "rapture" plus all the woes to follow. Such compassion for the rest of us; one can only what they'd be hoping for if they didn't even have the barest bones knowledge of Christianity.
To be fair, not every conservative evangelical, fundamentalist, or mainline Protestant who might otherwise agree with Joel Rosenberg's perspective that we need to look at the Middle East Permaquagmire from God's view has bought into this rapture silliness. Unfortunately, all too many people have judging by the record sales LaHaye's and his predecessor Hal Lindsay's books have enjoyed. (No doubt their bankers, tax accountants, agents and churches also have reason to be joyful, and I haven't even gotten into surmising how much they've managed to do so well for their families by ostensibly doing good for the Lord by spreading this compost rapturist boogeyman across so many churches.
Sorry folks. When it comes to smelling any hucksterism and spook 'em to church buncombe, I'll take a back seat to nobody; or for that matter sometimes, prisoners. But all kidding aside, it's doubly cruel to promise a bogus future presence, manipulate people into accepting God not based on a need to address real individual fears for one's soul and what a lifetime of unresolved individual sins could mean to he or she facing this kind of crisis.
We don't need to use any theological equivalents to water boarding when we simply have both the Truth and the actual and real physical presence of Jesus Chrsit in our midst. And believe me, when we receive Communion at Mass, our relationship with Jesus can't get any more personal. He's there, and it us at that moment. Period.
What I can never figure out is the argument from biblical literalists telling us that Jesus was only speaking allegorically and just used a piece of bread to elaborate a point he was trying to make when he first introduced the idea of us looking at him in the form of bread. He knew it would blow people away. After all, it still does if people still can't understand that Jesus knew he couldn't just say folks you'll be eating my bod and drinking my blood to Jews of all people without expecting some resistance. Save for his 12 apostles who stuck with him that night in Gallilee when he first introduced the concept, the rest of the crowd vamoosed and no doubt ratted on Jesus to the Pharisees and Sadduccees. He knew this would happen too.
Now, why would a marked man living in such dangerous times, risk everything on an allegorical or metaphorical gamble when he could, and did, as God, tell his closest followers THIS IS IT, but oh, don't take my word for it, you might not ever know if I'm really correct on this. Jesus was no Woody Allen, and even atheists will agree on that! And, as for the ressurection, destruction of the Temple, raising Lazarus, etc., we don't find anywhere throughout Scripture where Jesus sets any timeline, elaborate (almost whodunit) notions on when He'll revisit earth.
As new Catholics I'm sure it's hard for you to fully understand the theology, etc. beause it really is overwhelming. And we keep that way sometimes to avoid falling for the latest religious con artists standing by ready to shear God's sheep.
The rapture stuff is all interesting Psy-Fi goofiness. And, so long as nobody takes it the least bit seriously, even reading it won't do much damage save for a tired belly after a good laugh or two. (But of course, Weimar Republic Germans used to say that about some Austrian author's book Mein Kampf which prior to his becoming Chancellor and Fuhrer, was the most profitable book ever purchased but never read. At least LaHaye succeeded in making his Psy-fi easier to read and more enjoyable if you like goofy novels.
But for all this end-time stuff enticing people in the religious public square, nothing, absoutely nothing, beats what only Catholicism can bring to the Table. Now, who's got what Who we really desire and need to be enraptured with?
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"This Old House's" motto is "Measure twice, cut once." My new motto is THINK at least twice or thrice, then you only have to write once, and maybe apologize nonce.
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Dave Armstrong
Network Apologist
| Joined: | Fri Nov 2nd, 2007 |
| Location: | Melvindale, Michigan USA |
| Posts: | 1869 |
| First Name: | Dave | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Evangelical (1977): Diverse Protestant Influences / Catholic in 1990 |
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Posted: Mon Mar 31st, 2008 05:17 pm |
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| That's an excellent insight, Anne. I think you're onto something there.
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I'm happy to offer whatever theological & personal assistance I can. My blog, Biblical Evidence for Catholicism, contains 2000+ papers & web pages (absolutely free) & 16 apologetic books (for sale):
http://www.biblicalcatholic.com/
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