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Christine Ann
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| Joined: | Mon Oct 9th, 2006 |
| Location: | An Hours' Drive From Cincinnati, Ohio USA |
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| First Name: | Christine Ann | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | former Lutheran, Baptist, now Catholic. |
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Posted: Thu Nov 2nd, 2006 10:16 am |
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In my attempt to understand the state of purgatory, I have questions....
Do I understand correctly that I can pray for those loved ones in purgatory? Are they those who were baptised and died with unrepented sin? Is it possible to avoid purgatory and how can one hope to attain that? What is a plenary indulgence? How does it benefit a loved one in purgatory? How do I go about gaining a plenary indulgence? Is it possible to have been in the state of purgatory and return to this life so as to try to "make up" for one's sins? Could the Lord give this choice to a soul?
I have heard these things discussed on EWTN in a homily, but do not fully understand the conditions of purgatory. If someone has studied this out , I'd appreciate a response. Thank you kindly.
Chrisitine Ann
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David W. Emery
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Posted: Thu Nov 2nd, 2006 11:56 pm |
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Do I understand correctly that I can pray for those loved ones in purgatory?
Yes. The only human beings who don’t need your prayers are the ones already in heaven. If someone you pray for is in heaven, God will apply the prayer’s merits where they will do the most good. All Christians — in heaven, in purgatory, on earth — are joined together in what we call the Communion of the Saints and are able to share among themselves spiritual goods through prayer, penance and good works.
Compendium 211. How can we help the souls being purified in purgatory?
Cf. Catechism §1032
Because of the communion of saints, the faithful who are still pilgrims on earth are able to help the souls in purgatory by offering prayers in suffrage for them, especially the Eucharistic sacrifice. They also help them by almsgiving, indulgences, and works of penance.
Are they those who were baptised and died with unrepented sin?
Baptism makes one a Christian; it also removes all sin up to the time of the baptism. But if the person then sins mortally, he is liable to hell. If he sins venially, he is liable to purgatory. But again, if he then repents and makes proper use of the sacraments and good works, either penalty can be forgiven.
Doing penance is how we make up for our sins. Basically, we can pay for our sins (regardless of whether they are mortal or venial) now through penance, or later in purgatory. But they will be paid for one way or another because they are hateful to God, and their consequences tarnish everything and everyone they touch. Doing your penance now is considered the smarter move, first because you have a better chance at salvation since you will be more vigilant in grave matters as well as lighter ones, and second because it will be the lighter burden.
Is it possible to avoid purgatory and how can one hope to attain that?
By repenting of your sins, receiving the sacraments, especially Reconciliation and Eucharist, doing works of penance, especially working to efface the wrong you have done and to reject temptation, and praying for the grace to avoid offending God in the future. Or obtaining an indulgence.
Compendium 312. What are indulgences?
Cf. Catechism §1471–1479, 1498
Indulgences are the remission before God of the temporal punishment due to sins whose guilt has already been forgiven. The faithful Christian who is duly disposed gains the indulgence under prescribed conditions for either himself or the departed. Indulgences are granted through the ministry of the Church which, as the dispenser of the grace of redemption, distributes the treasury of the merits of Christ and the Saints.
A partial indulgence will remit some part of the punishment. A plenary indulgence will remit all of it. One must qualify for an indulgence by doing a specified work and having the proper disposition. Examples of specified work are making a pilgrimage, praying certain prayers (such as the Creed or the Rosary), or performing a good work (such as visiting the sick or counseling the doubtful). There is an official book, called the Manual of Indulgences, that explains indulgences in detail and lists practically all of the various ways one can obtain them. I suggest you get the book (it’s available from many Catholic bookstores) and see what’s what.
Is it possible to have been in the state of purgatory and return to this life so as to try to “make up” for one’s sins? Could the Lord give this choice to a soul?
I’m afraid this is folklore, not doctrine. Purgatory is itself “make-up” for one’s forgiven sins. From purgatory, the next stop is heaven, not earth.
David
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Christine Ann
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| Joined: | Mon Oct 9th, 2006 |
| Location: | An Hours' Drive From Cincinnati, Ohio USA |
| Posts: | 156 |
| First Name: | Christine Ann | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | former Lutheran, Baptist, now Catholic. |
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Posted: Fri Nov 3rd, 2006 10:27 pm |
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Thank you David for the explanation, but I think I'm still a bit confused...I know this is basic, but is almsgiving what we offer during the collection at Mass? Or is it a special offering. Also is the penance determined by the priest? does he direct a person at confession? What works of repentance are done for a penance? Almsgiving, apology, recompense, or some good work...is this what you mean as examples of penance? Is the penance directed to God or to the offended person or persons. Or both?
It seems like it was so much less complicated in the past when I have confessed my sin to God and repented (tried to correct the wrong, apologize, etc.) And felt reassured of God's forgiveness because I've asked for it sincerely. I'm not sure that I am making myself understood...I apologize if not. 
Indulgences looks like an even more complicated subject...one which I will study in my catechism and the book you referred me to.
Thanks for taking the time to answer me.
Christine Ann
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David W. Emery
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Posted: Sat Nov 4th, 2006 01:58 am |
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Christine Ann wrote:Is almsgiving what we offer during the collection at Mass? Or is it a special offering?
Almsgiving is a voluntary contribution for the needy. Various collections are taken at Mass, and some of them could indeed be for the benefit of the poor or victims of disaster, but others would be for the maintenance of the diocese and parish (this is the specific purpose of the collection taken at the offertory, unless otherwise determined by the bishop), for special projects in the parish, and for other purposes as the bishop or pastor may approve.
Depending on one’s resources and the amount given, any of these could be a token gift or a real sacrifice. You will recall the gospel of the widow’s mite. For her to give was truly an act of penance.
Also is the penance determined by the priest? does he direct a person at confession?
Now you are apparently speaking of the penance given by the priest as part of the sacrament of reconciliation. This is one type of penance. (And yes, a confessor should provide the penitent with appropriate counsel and assign a penance that will do him spiritual good. These acts are part of the sacrament.) But I was speaking of penance in the wider sense, as anything a person might do in reparation for sin, his own or another’s, regardless of whether it is in connection with the sacrament of reconciliation.
For instance, a person might fast and pray in atonement for some widespread social evil. Again, one might donate the proceeds of the sale of personal property to help built a parish church. Another possibility would be to visit a shut-in. Or the person might perform some disciplinary exercise, denying himself something his body notices to ward off temptation. This latter is the sort of penance often adopted for Lent. And yes, an apology is an act of penance.
The personal “cost” of any of these acts and its ultimate purpose are what makes it an act of penance or not. One might, for example, donate a large sum toward the construction of a church, but if his purpose was self-aggrandizement it will be of no value as penance.
Is the penance directed to God or to the offended person or persons. Or both?
Depending on its ultimate purpose and the immediate intention of the penitent, an act of penance could be directed to God, the offended person, the benefit of someone else or even oneself. Certainly all penance worthy of the name must have a certain intention to appease God, in the sense that wrongdoing has inevitable consequences which we should try to rectify. The offended person always requires restitution wherever possible. Any other beneficiary, such as when one volunteers his labor for someone’s benefit — for example, in helping to construct a house for someone whose home was destroyed by fire — is perfectly legitimate as a penitential work if one is properly motivated. And I have mentioned above the possibility of self-discipline for one’s own advancement in holiness, so that the person can actually benefit himself through spiritual sacrifice. All of these are legitimate applications, and none of them absolutely excludes the others.
It seems like it was so much less complicated in the past when I have confessed my sin to God and repented (tried to correct the wrong, apologize, etc.) And felt reassured of God's forgiveness because I've asked for it sincerely.
Of course when one does not analyze, things seem less complicated. Now you are taking a closer look at just what we mean by penance, and it can seem overwhelming for a while, until you get things sorted out. The process does not change just because you are now seeing that the puzzle has more pieces to it than you had earlier imagined. Eventually those pieces will drop into place and you will be able to see the completed picture.
Once you understand these things, I believe you will also see that not much has changed from what you have believed until now. Part of it is the unfamiliar vocabulary and the analytical relationships which you had no need to consider before. Part of it, too, may be a certain legalism in your approach to Catholicism. You may tend to see things in rigid relationship to each other, whereas in reality the relations are organic, just as you had experienced them before but had not thought through.
Keep working at it. Ask your questions, reassess and question some more, and soon enough it will seem easier.
David
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Christine Ann
Member
| Joined: | Mon Oct 9th, 2006 |
| Location: | An Hours' Drive From Cincinnati, Ohio USA |
| Posts: | 156 |
| First Name: | Christine Ann | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | former Lutheran, Baptist, now Catholic. |
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Posted: Sat Nov 4th, 2006 12:31 pm |
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Hello David
You always end with a note of encouragement and I appreciate that. It is all coming much clearer to me now. What do you mean by a legalistic approach to Catholicism? I've heard this term applied to the Baptist Church I attended, but never really understood what it meant...except that it was somehow bad. You may see some of this in me since I attended the "independant" Baptist church for 15 years and I don't wish to carry on a legalistic approach in my spiritual life if it is negative. Also, I don't know what you mean by "organic".
One last question about penance. Is an act of penance carried out privately, except in the case where the priest gives the penance? Or is this done publicly (before others) in some way; except in the case of a penance assigned by a priest, or an appology or reparation directly to an offended person. ie., is this something ever carried out in Mass or is it between you and God.
Thanks also for your response about purgatory. I love the idea that I can pray for someone passed on and benefit them in their suffering a little. It makes me feel closer to them also...that my relationship with them did not end at death....very comforting.
In His love,
Christine Ann
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David W. Emery
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Posted: Sun Nov 5th, 2006 02:10 pm |
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Christine Ann wrote:What do you mean by a legalistic approach to Catholicism?
The root meaning of legalism is akin to literalism, where a person’s procedures “follow the book” so closely that he loses sight of the goal. It might also be compared to the difference between the “letter” and the “spirit” of the law. Here I am using it to indicate a rigid, mechanical approach based on an imperfect understanding of the system. (The “system” here being Catholic Christianity.)
Since you are aware of your level of understanding at this point, it should not come as a shock that there are such things occurring in your approach. I do not consider this sort of legalism as “somehow bad.” It is a natural consequence of the process of learning and should fade away as you progress.
By “organic,” I mean it as the opposite of “legalistic,” in that a person has assimilated and internalized the system and it is functioning as intended, as an extension of his very self — as it were, organically. You will get to this stage soon enough, have no doubt.
Acts of penance were in the early Church, as in Judaism, public acts. This is understandable in a homogeneous society, where everyone believes and does the same things. However, the Church soon learned that, in its increasingly heterogeneous society of gentile tribes, preserving the privacy of these acts made them a much more merciful experience for the penitent. Besides, Jesus himself regarded public penances as tending toward ostentation (cf. Matthew 6:2–4).
Today, one seldom sees Christian penitence in public. The closest thing to it is perhaps in Mexico, where pilgrims often walk on their knees as they approach a shrine. This is usually done in consequence of a promesa, a vow to make a pilgrimage and offering if granted a certain grace, such as a conversion or recovery from serious illness. It is to be understood as an act of humility and obedience to God.
David
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