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Vanessa
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| Joined: | Tue Mar 20th, 2007 |
| Location: | United Kingdom |
| Posts: | 42 |
| First Name: | Vanessa | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Catholic, atheist, Catholic |
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Posted: Tue Apr 24th, 2007 07:12 am |
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I want to ask this question, without seeming to deny a major part of the Faith, but it is troubling me.
Throughout my years believing myself to be an atheist and denying God, I didn't live my life in a very different way, overall. Ideas of morality and ethics have always been something that I have thought about. Certain things, for example, pertaining to abortion and stem cell research, I renew in my Faith.
But in an every day sense, I have come back to the Church, through my moral beliefs, rather that coming to the Church and then accepting the beliefs, if that makes sense.
So here is the question. All these years, I have behaved in a certain way, ( I don't now doubt that my Catholic education was the foundation), but I believed in the concept of doing the right thing. There was no expectation of 'afterlife' or doing the right thing to please God, only that it was the right thing to do.
So now, I don't act so very differently, in my life, but my beliefs are a now a framework in which I act and I want to please God in my daily life.
But the life herafter, was not something that I was expecting, and in truth, is an idea that I find very hard to incorporate in to my life. I suppose that it is not something that I do need to think about on daily basis, but it is something that I find difficult to say that 'I believe'.
Vanessa
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Br_Carlo
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| Joined: | Mon Oct 9th, 2006 |
| Location: | Tyler, Texas USA |
| Posts: | 150 |
| First Name: | Br_Carlo (Vince Brach) | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Presbyterian, Episcopalian, CATHOLIC |
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Posted: Tue Apr 24th, 2007 08:36 am |
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God's peace. Vanessa, it is worth remembering that the godly Jews operated in much this way. The sense of rightness, combined with a hatred of evil, is paramount in the psalms and wisdom literature of the Bible without much mention (if any) of eternal life. Yet, with the coming of Christ we are given so very much more! God has truly made all things new through the Resurrection, and has added glory upon glory to our futures through the incalculable riches of Christ.
Think on this: Christ himself is the resurrection and the life. If our chief aim in this life is to be in Christ--and this we are, through obedience and suffering--then every rightness we desire, every good and perfect thing that we long for in this passing world, will find its fulfillment in Christ. Since he arose, so will we. Since he will never die again, neither will we! Looking past the inherent rightness of the law of God to its source, which is Christ, will fill you with a longing for that spiritual consummation of your own resurrection which we can taste--however briefly--in the Eucharist but will enjoy everlastingly when we are perfectly united to him in glory.
I tend to ramble on regarding heaven--please forgive me! Blessings, ~Br_Carlo~
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Annie
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| Joined: | Wed Feb 14th, 2007 |
| Location: | Columbus, Ohio USA |
| Posts: | 731 |
| First Name: | Annie | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | nothing, Quaker, Mennonite, Presbyterian, Methodist, Anglican, Catholic |
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Posted: Tue Apr 24th, 2007 10:18 am |
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In my life I didn't think about "the hereafter" much until I got older and things started hurting that never hurt before and the doc started saying, "you're just getting older." When that first bumper fell off, so to speak, I started thinking about the "great beyond" because I realized I can't go to the "repair shop" indefinitely.
There are different faith focuses for different life stages, in other words.
speaking in car parables,
____________________
Annie
Ora et labora
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Darlene
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| Joined: | Mon Oct 9th, 2006 |
| Location: | Pocono Mountains, Pennsylvania USA |
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| First Name: | Darlene | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Christian, trusting His love and forgiveness |
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Posted: Tue Apr 24th, 2007 03:25 pm |
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Vanessa,
I think Paul the Apostle said it best. "Now if Christ is preached as raised from the dead, how can some of you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? But if there is no resurrection of the dead, then Christ has not been raised; if Christ has not been raised, then our preaching is in vain and your faith is in vain. We are even found to be misrepresenting God, because we testified of God that he raised Christ, whom he did not raise if it is true that the dead are not raised. For if the dead are not raised, then Christ has not been raised. If Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile and you are still in your sins. Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished. If for this life only we have hoped in Christ, we are of all men most to be pitied. But in fact Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who have fallen asleep." I Corinthians 15:12-20
Can you tell by the "tone" of this passage that Paul is admonishing the Corinthians? He wants them to get it. He wants the Church to embrace this truth, not only as an intellectual, factual truth, but one that penetrates our hearts and souls, that produces the fruit of holy living. The resurrection is the heart of our Christian faith. We can pray and know that Christ hears and answers our prayers because of the resurrection. We can appreciate and have access to the Communion of Saints because Christ went before us and thus makes alive all those who are in Him. We can attend the funeral of a loved one who was faithful to Christ, and know that we will see them in glory, in our Father's Heavenly Kingdom. All this because of the resurrection of Christ our Lord!
Vanessa, I encourage you to read all of I Corinthians Chapter 15. Ask the Holy Spirit to infuse this truth into your very soul. Christ our Lord lives to make intercession for us because the resurrection is a reality, even though our carnal minds cannot perceive it. "So we do not lose heart. Though our outer nature is wasting away, our inner nature is being renewed every day. For this slight momentary affliction is preparing for us an eternal weight of glory beyond all comparison, for we look not to the things that are seen but to the things that are unseen. For the things that are seen are transient, but the things that are unseen are eternal." I Corinthians 4:16-18 The resurrection is our hope, it is what we look forward to, it is the motivating factor that propels us to live Godly lives in Christ Jesus, it is the truth that enables us to endure suffering, for we know that our Redeemer lives. Allelujah!
God Bless You Sister,
Darlene
____________________
The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all. II Corinthians 13:14
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David W. Emery
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Posted: Tue Apr 24th, 2007 06:44 pm |
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You are a piece of work, Vanessa. You lived a moral life, yet for many years it had no basis because you rejected the God who gave it. Now this same morality has led you back to belief in God, so that you finally have a foundation for the edifice that you call home. But you now find that the idea of an eternal reward is a bit “off,” and you are uncomfortable with it.
Well, one step at a time. Darlene’s scriptural enthusiasm definitely points the way, but perhaps it’s a bit soon to be of help. Br. Carlo mentions the Jewish expectations of reward did not necessarily extend beyond this life, and of course this is true as well. But again, does it match your experience?
Let’s look at the cultural expectations. Your country has been dominated for nearly 500 years by a religion formed on a secular ideal. Elizabeth I’s concern in particular was that the Anglican faith “look like” the real thing (Catholicism), but there was no requirement that anyone actually believe it. One simply had to go through the motions so as to preserve good order. Political and social order, that is. Religious belief was irrelevant, so long as it did not threaten her regime.
One of the direct results of this policy is the now-classic British emphasis on “doing one’s duty” without regard to religious foundations or rewards. In other words, the system developed a secular morality. And this outlook appears to have had an influence in your own life. Meanwhile, the remnant of Anglicanism has “settled” as a result of its lack of a solid foundation, to the point where it is a warped and unlivable structure, according to the majority of the populace. This is the cause of the largely secular society that now surrounds you, and it is the reason for morality’s fall from grace. How? Because ultimately, morality depends on divine authority, and if you don’t accept divine authority — that is, especially, if you don’t believe in God — then morality becomes irrelevant and is simply jettisoned from society and the lives of the individuals who comprise it. Is this not the present state of affairs in your country as well as mine?
Perhaps you saw this problem, and wishing to preserve your morality, and feeling the tension, decided it would stand better if you restored its original foundation, God. Returning to your religious roots, you now have a legitimate morality, perhaps on the same level as the Jews.
Now it seems you are being called by God (else why would you bring up the topic?) to take the next step: the growth and completion of faith and of your spiritual edifice to include “the communion of saints, the forgiveness of sins, the resurrection of the body and the life everlasting” (Apostles’ Creed). I do think that, as you work your way through these points, you will begin to see a panorama opening up before you as you emerge from the dark forest of secular thought. Give yourself time and opportunity to make your baby steps before you attempt to stride like a hero. You are lately returned, so you will need this time and practice before you feel comfortable and able to say with conviction, “I believe.”
David
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Vanessa
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| Joined: | Tue Mar 20th, 2007 |
| Location: | United Kingdom |
| Posts: | 42 |
| First Name: | Vanessa | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Catholic, atheist, Catholic |
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Posted: Thu Apr 26th, 2007 10:29 am |
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I do most appreciate your replies, and they have given me much to think over, which is always good.
I still don't understand why it is better to try to be a good person and please God and so get eternal life in Heaven, rather than living the same life without any sense of reward.
Does not the lack of expectation of reward make your life more 'worthy' in the sense that it was done without expectation.
Vanessa
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Br_Carlo
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| Joined: | Mon Oct 9th, 2006 |
| Location: | Tyler, Texas USA |
| Posts: | 150 |
| First Name: | Br_Carlo (Vince Brach) | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Presbyterian, Episcopalian, CATHOLIC |
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Posted: Thu Apr 26th, 2007 07:22 pm |
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God's peace. Please understand that "we are saved by grace through faith, not of works, lest any man should boast" (Eph 2: 8-9). While good works always accompany a saving faith and are necessary for our justification and sanctification, they are light-years away from being sufficient by themselves.
We can never expect to "earn" heaven, not do our works on Earth impress God, except as grace enables them to be pleasing to him. The fact is, God promises us that the reward of the faithful life, through grace, is eternal life. To live in the absence of this hope is nothing but brave despair and stoic resignation. God made us for better things. Blessings, ~Br_Carlo~
Last edited on Thu Apr 26th, 2007 07:22 pm by Br_Carlo
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Ali
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| Joined: | Sat Jan 6th, 2007 |
| Location: | Ohio USA |
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| First Name: | Ali | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | JW, finally fully Catholic |
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Posted: Fri Apr 27th, 2007 08:52 am |
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Vanessa wrote: I do most appreciate your replies, and they have given me much to think over, which is always good.
I still don't understand why it is better to try to be a good person and please God and so get eternal life in Heaven, rather than living the same life without any sense of reward.
Does not the lack of expectation of reward make your life more 'worthy' in the sense that it was done without expectation.
Vanessa
{shrug} I dunno, Vanessa. I always try to just be a good person no matter what. If I see a mom having a bad day with kids, I wonder how I would like someone to respond to me when I'm having a bad day with kids. Not because I want something out of it, or to build up my rewards account with God, but because that how *I* want to be treated. A bit selfish, eh? LOL
A quote I've been reminding myself of lately when I'm feeling yucky and lazy "Be the change you want to see in the world" from Ghandi, I think. So, perhaps, still spiritual based. With all the bad stuff in the world, I think if I can just make little changes by me being a good person (with no hope of reward or future blessings) in my little corner of the world and it touches someone in my interaction with them, or my attitude towards {whatever} then it's all good.
I guess what I'm saying is that I do try live my life in a "good" way, with no expectation of reward. I will never do enough things to earn what God has given me. I accept my blessings and peace knowing they may ripped away from me at any time. The fact that I have them now, and have I have the heavenly hope God give's is just icing on the cake  Not a just reward of my service.
Did any of this apply or make sense at all? LOL
Ali
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David W. Emery
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Posted: Fri Apr 27th, 2007 11:56 pm |
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I still don't understand why it is better to try to be a good person and please God and so get eternal life in Heaven, rather than living the same life without any sense of reward.
Vanessa, I’m going to list here the biblical references to “eternal life.” (I’m using the RSV-CE, but most bibles should translate similarly.) See if you can find something worthwhile in them.
Matthew 19:16, 29; 25:46
Mark 10:17, 30
Luke 10:25; 18:18, 30
John 3:15, 16, 36; 4:14, 36; 5:24, 39; 6:27, 40, 47, 54, 68; 10:28; 12:25, 50; 17:2, 3
Acts 13:46, 48
Romans 2:7; 5:21; 6:22, 23
Galatians 6:8
1 Timothy 1:16; 6:12
Titus 1:2; 3:7
1 John 1:2; 2:25; 3:15; 5:11, 13, 20
Jude 1:21
Does not the lack of expectation of reward make your life more 'worthy' in the sense that it was done without expectation.
This is a misapprehension. You cannot draw near to God in any other way than by pleasing him. As scripture says in Hebrews 11:6, “And without faith it is impossible to please him (God). For whoever would draw near to God must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who seek him.” Those who claim to seek God without expection of reward are just fooling themselves; human nature won’t let it happen. Furthermore, it is not “more worthy” to refuse God’s gifts. On the contrary, it is an affront to his goodness and it stunts your own growth.
David
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Vanessa
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| Joined: | Tue Mar 20th, 2007 |
| Location: | United Kingdom |
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| First Name: | Vanessa | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Catholic, atheist, Catholic |
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Posted: Mon Apr 30th, 2007 11:30 am |
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I do apologise for my previous post.
I was feeling bad after discussion with a couple of people who mistook my 'sudden' conversion as a sign of my fear for what may happen after death.
I thank you for bearing with me and always being understanding.
Br Carlo, thank you for your help, but when you say that we are 'saved by grace through faith, not of works', I thought that we were saved by works? I really don't understand.
And I do still think altruism is actually a valid concept
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David W. Emery
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Posted: Mon Apr 30th, 2007 03:46 pm |
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Vanessa wrote:Br Carlo… when you say that we are 'saved by grace through faith, not of works', I thought that we were saved by works? I really don't understand.
He’s quoting scripture, Vanessa. Ephesians 2:8.
“Saved by works” is what the Protestants accuse us of. We don’t believe that. The works we are obliged to produce are to prove our faith, not to substitute for it. In other words, while we don’t say that works, in and of themselves, are the be-all and end-all of religion, they still have a role in salvation. Many Protestants deny the role of works altogether and rely on faith alone, but as the following scripture passage points out, this is not the acceptable way.
James 2:18–21: “But some one will say, ‘You have faith and I have works.’ Show me your faith apart from your works, and I by my works will show you my faith. You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believe — and shudder. Do you want to be shown, you shallow man, that faith apart from works is barren? Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar?”
So with the Catholic Church, it’s both/and, not either/or.
David
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Br_Carlo
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Posted: Mon Apr 30th, 2007 09:23 pm |
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God's peace. Vanessa said: "And I do still think altruism is actually a valid concept."
Altruism is most certainly a valid concept--and where more but in the life and deeds of our Lord? "I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep" (John 10:11); "But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us" (Rom. 5:8). Blessings, ~Br_Carlo~
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Vanessa
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| First Name: | Vanessa | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Catholic, atheist, Catholic |
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Posted: Tue May 1st, 2007 12:29 am |
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'Saved by works is what the Protestants accuse us of. We don’t believe that'
Well I did most surely believe that we are saved by works. I have a lot of thinking to do obviously.
I have sent this week 30 doctors in medecins sans frontieres of whom 1 was Catholic. They all do the same work, they all have a place in heaven in my understanding, not only the one who is Catholic.
If that is not so, then I really do need to do a lot of thinking.
Last edited on Tue May 1st, 2007 05:52 am by Vanessa
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David W. Emery
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Posted: Tue May 1st, 2007 11:37 am |
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Vanessa wrote:Well I do most surely believe that we are saved by works. I have a lot of thinking to do obviously.
I should have been more specific. Protestants in general believe we are saved by faith alone, and as a result accuse Catholics of believing that they are saved by works alone. This is what we do not believe, not that one or the other has no bearing on our salvation. Quite the contrary. Faith is the formal means of salvation, as St. Paul says, and what we do in our concrete lives as a result of our faith is the expression and proof of that faith, as St. James says. In other words, as I stated above, for us it is both/and, not either/or as the Protestants insist. We value good works, but not as a value in themselves; they must serve as our expression of faith to offer any advantage.
Why is faith necessary? Using your example of the Doctors Without Borders (as they are called in the US): A person skilled in medicine is able to deal with the care of the body, preventing and alleviating illness, and this is a good thing. What he cannot do is heal the soul. It’s all right that this is not his vocation, but the care of the soul is still important, and he has to acknowledge it in order to foster even bodily health. Over and over I see people who have much concern for their own physical well-being but who do not believe that the soul is a worthwhile part of their being. As a result, they fall into the trap of concentrating on self-gratification (which they see as desirable because it is a bodily appetite) and end by injuring both body and soul through abuse.
As Fr. Mitch Pacwa of EWTN tells of his own vocation to the priesthood, he was encouraged by his father to study medicine, even though he himself had an attraction to be a man of God. His father remonstrated with him, pointing out that he could do just as much good as a doctor of medicine. Young Mitch replied that if he were a doctor, his patients would get better for a time, but eventually they would all die like the rest of mankind. As a priest, he could insure their eternal welfare, and this, he said, was far better.
This brings us back to your original question: what is the value of eternal life? What is the deal with the resurrection of the dead? Witj Darlene, I encourage you to check out 1 Corinthians 15 and see what Paul means when he says, “If Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile and you are still in your sins.… If for this life only we have hoped in Christ, we are of all men most to be pitied.” (vv. 17, 19).
David
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lia
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Posted: Fri Jul 20th, 2007 03:23 am |
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Vanessa wrote: 'Saved by works is what the Protestants accuse us of. We don’t believe that'
Well I did most surely believe that we are saved by works. I have a lot of thinking to do obviously.
I have sent this week 30 doctors in medecins sans frontieres of whom 1 was Catholic. They all do the same work, they all have a place in heaven in my understanding, not only the one who is Catholic.
If that is not so, then I really do need to do a lot of thinking.
Maybe it would help you better to think that we are saved through faith and works. It's both. It's like what an old song says, "Love and marriage, go together like a horse and carriage. This I tell you, brother, you can't have one, you can't have none, you can't have one without the other..." (gosh, I don't even know if anybody is familiar with this...it's not even of my own genre!  but I like old songs  ) So if you have faith and it doesn't show with your actions it's dead faith. If you do good works and for the God you believe in...then what are you doing it for? Especially if you don't believe in life after death.
When I was a kid, I was taught that for those who are good, but does not have faith in Jesus Christ (and those who have not heard of Him, their soul sort of goes to a place for a certain amount of years and they are given time to believe? :?
____________________
Man can't b forced 2 accept the truth.He can b drawn toward the truth only by his own nature, that is, by his own freedom w/c commits him 2 search sincerely 4 truth & when he finds it, 2 adhere 2 it both in his conviction & his behavior.-- JP2
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