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Talithacumi
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Posted: Sat Apr 14th, 2007 03:16 am |
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Not sure if I'm putting this in the right forum, but... OK, I have two questions, but they're both related.
The first is one that I'd just recently asked myself and then I just heard the same question on a Catholic radio station yesterday. It's something I'd never heard brought up and truthfully, I wasn't really satisfied with the very vague answer that the radio host offered. Of course, I may not get an answer here, either... the "Realm of Mystery" and all that... but anyway, here goes:
If, once Hell was created, it was closed to anyone who entered there so that no one could leave it once they entered, then how is it that Satan (as well as his demons) can go prowling about the earth like a roaring lion? Several places in Scripture mention the presence of Satan after he was banished to Hell: Satan speaks to God about Job and God gives him the authority to challenge Job as long as he wouldn't kill him; Satan tempts Jesus in the desert for 40 days; Satan's demons enter into people and Jesus rebukes them and commands them to come out, even sending them into a herd of swine at one point; Satan enters into Judas and tempts him into betraying Jesus... and on and on.
So my basic question is: how is it that the demons of Hell can wander freely about the earth if one is never supposed to be allowed to leave Hell once they've been banished to it?
OK, Question #2... and kind of along the same train of thought... only this one is on the opposite end of the pole, so to speak:
If no one could enter Heaven until Jesus ascended, then what about people like Enoch and Elijah? The bible says that Enoch lived until so many years, then he "walked with God." Scholars take this to mean that he was taken up to Heaven without dying first. And then there's the famous story of Elijah being taken up in his chariot of fire.
And what of the Transfiguration of Jesus where He speaks with Abraham and Moses and Elijah? If they are not appearing from Heaven, then from where (they appear to have glorified bodies...)? And if they're not appearing from Heaven, then is it just a vision of things to come, or what? Please forgive my ignorance on this point.
I'm just trying to sort this out... I mean, if people could get to Heaven without Jesus' dying, rising from the dead, then ascending into Heaven to "open the Gates", then what's the big deal about Jesus' whole Passion, Death and Resurrection? What was the point?
Please don't think I don't believe... it's one of those "Faith seeking understanding" questions... (along with my indefatigable tendency to play Devil's Advocate  - yeah, I know... our Great John Paul II did away with that Office [didn't he?], but... what can I say? It's just in me  )
JMJ
- Cheri
Last edited on Sat Apr 14th, 2007 03:21 am by Talithacumi
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- G.K. Chesterton
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David W. Emery
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Posted: Sat Apr 14th, 2007 09:45 am |
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Regarding your question about the denizens of hell: Your problem obviously has to do with the idea of the impossibility of a person being in two places at the same time. One thing you are missing, Cheri, is that heaven and hell, like purgatory and the limbo of the Fathers, is a “state of being” rather than a “place.” Another is that, even with certain spiritual persons in this earthly life, there is a phenomenon called bilocation. Some notable examples are St. Martin de Porres, Ven. Mary of Agreda and St. Pio of Pietrelcina.
I believe that the first point helps explain the second, as well as laying to rest your confusion on the topic in general. A typical example of hell being a state of being is this from CCC 1033: “This state of definitive self-exclusion from communion with God and the blessed is called ‘hell.’” Here is another from CCC 1059: “Following the example of Christ, the Church warns the faithful of the ‘sad and lamentable reality of eternal death’ (GCD 69), also called ‘hell.’” Hell is therefore “death” and “self-exclusion,” not a region of fire beneath the surface of the earth; no matter how hot the earth’s core may be, it is not hell but merely one of many habitats in the universe unsuitable for human life.
As a result, it is not a contradiction that the bible says that the devil is in hell (cf. 2 Peter 2:4) but also that he is the “ruler of this world” (cf. John 14:30 and 16:11; 2 Corinthians 4:4).
Now concerning your second question, regarding the “taking” or translation of Enoch and Elijah before the “gates of heaven” were opened at Christ’s descent into “hell” (literally sheol or hades, words referring to the realm of the dead and the limbo of the Fathers). Again, by making some simple distinctions, we can clear up the confusion. First, let us recall that when a person dies, he enters into eternity; therefore, time is no longer relevant. Second, there is no contradiction between the limbo of the Fathers and heaven because they are states of the soul, not places or times.
The bible says that Enoch lived until so many years, then he "walked with God."
According to the Hebrew idiom, Enoch is not said to have begun his walk with God only after his son Methuselah was born, but that he continued to walk with God to the end of his life. Also, to “walk with God” has to do with one’s earthly life, not one’s passage into the next life.
Scholars take this to mean that he was taken up to Heaven without dying first.
This assertion is in fact biblical (Hebrews 11:5). It does not rest solely on the opinion of scholars.
And what of the Transfiguration of Jesus where He speaks with Abraham and Moses and Elijah?
Abraham is not mentioned as appearing at the transfiguration (cf. Matthew 17:3; Mark 9:4). Moses represents the Law, Elijah the Prophets, corresponding to the Jewish tradition of dividing the scriptures into three parts: the Law, the Prophets and the Writings. This distinction prefigures the Catholic tradition regarding Scripture, Tradition and Magisterium. Jesus himself is the chief rabbi, the source and head of the Magisterium, thereby completing and fulfilling both traditions.
If they are not appearing from Heaven, then from where (they appear to have glorified bodies...)? And if they're not appearing from Heaven, then is it just a vision of things to come, or what?
They do indeed have the representation of glory. They have come from Paradise, the highest and most heaven-like level of the limbo of the Fathers (according to rabbinic teaching) where they await the opening of heaven. Recall that they are in eternity, not time, so the temporal terms “before” and “after” are essentially meaningless. Yet the bible continues to speak in temporal terms, since this is our only experience (cf., for example, Revelation 6:9–11, which actually takes place in eternity). Recall too that we encounter the same difficulty in speaking of purgatory: the cleansing and expiation take place in eternity in a manner unknown to us; it is, as it were, a process without time. And here is where we enter into mystery. We do not experience eternity in our earthly life, so we have no more than a vague concept of it.
Please don't think I don't believe... it's one of those "Faith seeking understanding" questions.
Of course, Cheri. This is understood and accepted from the beginning. We always assume on this forum that a person is speaking from the standpoint of “faith seeking understanding” until the contrary is proved.
David
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CajunRick
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Posted: Sat Apr 14th, 2007 01:09 pm |
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Talithacumi wrote: I have two questions, but they're both related.
As always, David gave you an excellent answer. Let me give you the simple version:
"All things are possible with God."
The limitations you question are limitations placed on those who dwell in eternity. The limits are not placed on God. If God choses to allow Satan to be in the world as well as in hell, and if God choses to allow Moses to appear with Jesus as well as in heaven, then it will be so. They cannot do it on their own, but all things are possible with God.
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Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
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Talithacumi
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Posted: Sun Apr 15th, 2007 03:03 am |
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David W. Emery wrote: Regarding your question about the denizens of hell: Your problem obviously has to do with the idea of the impossibility of a person being in two places at the same time. One thing you are missing, Cheri, is that heaven and hell, like purgatory and the limbo of the Fathers, is a “state of being” rather than a “place.” Another is that, even with certain spiritual persons in this earthly life, there is a phenomenon called bilocation. Some notable examples are St. Martin de Porres, Ven. Mary of Agreda and St. Pio of Pietrelcina.
I believe that the first point helps explain the second, as well as laying to rest your confusion on the topic in general. A typical example of hell being a state of being is this from CCC 1033: “This state of definitive self-exclusion from communion with God and the blessed is called ‘hell.’” Here is another from CCC 1059: “Following the example of Christ, the Church warns the faithful of the ‘sad and lamentable reality of eternal death’ (GCD 69), also called ‘hell.’” Hell is therefore “death” and “self-exclusion,” not a region of fire beneath the surface of the earth; no matter how hot the earth’s core may be, it is not hell but merely one of many habitats in the universe unsuitable for human life.
As a result, it is not a contradiction that the bible says that the devil is in hell (cf. 2 Peter 2:4) but also that he is the “ruler of this world” (cf. John 14:30 and 16:11; 2 Corinthians 4:4).
David,
Thanks for the attempt, but, uhh... I'm still not really clear. I mean, I know what you're saying about Heaven and Hell as states of "being" rather than a physical place. I've never believed that Hell was a "place." I understand that. I'm not one of these people who thinks that if you dig deep enough into the earth, you'll find your way into Hell (I've actually heard of people who do believe that!) It's just that... OK, let me give the example of the parable of the rich man and Lazarus (Luke 16:20-31). As you know, Lazarus was a poor beggar who would lay at the gate of the rich man and beg for crumbs of his food, and the rich man gave him none. They both died. Lazarus was taken up into the "bosom of Abraham" while the rich man went to Hell. The rich man saw Abraham "afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom," and he cried out to Abraham to have mercy on him. Abraham says in verse 26: "... Between us and you, there is fixed a great chaos: so that they who would pass from hence to you, cannot, nor from thence come hither." (obviously I'm quoting from my Douay Rheims  , which happens to be handy...)
So, what can I gather from this in light of the quote from the CCC 1033: “This state of definitive self-exclusion from communion with God and the blessed is called ‘hell.’”? It would seem to indicate in both places that there is an impassable chasm between the citizens of Heaven and those of Hell. But perhaps I'm missing the "Middle Earth" so to speak. Perhaps this "world" is sort of a common playground for all souls from Heaven to Earth to Purgatory to Hell , but that, between the citizens of Heaven and those of Hell there's a kind of... "you can go as far as the Earth/world, but not beyond" on both sides. (I'm speaking in terms of physical "places" only to put it in human terms because I don't really have any other experience by which to speak of them).
But this is still very confusing for me, and I think I'm probably confusing you with what I'm trying to ask. I don't think I'm putting forth the question right... I know you're talking about "states of being," but there is still, as you yourself quoted, a state of "self-exclusion." Despite any ability to "bi-locate", exclusion would seem to indicate that there can be no real communication and thus no interaction, wouldn't it? If the citizens of Hell are "excluded" then that says to me that they cannot be "included" in any "life" at all, but can only be counted among the "dead" in their Hell (otherwise known as "absence of God.") And if there is an absence of God, then how can Satan converse with Him? Do you understand what I'm asking? "Physical place" or "state of being" - it doesn't matter, does it? There is still supposed to be an "exclusion" - and I'm still confused.
I'm probably not making any sense with my question, am I? :?
Now concerning your second question, regarding the “taking” or translation of Enoch and Elijah before the “gates of heaven” were opened at Christ’s descent into “hell” (literally sheol or hades, words referring to the realm of the dead and the limbo of the Fathers). Again, by making some simple distinctions, we can clear up the confusion. First, let us recall that when a person dies, he enters into eternity; therefore, time is no longer relevant. Second, there is no contradiction between the limbo of the Fathers and heaven because they are states of the soul, not places or times.
I'm still a little confused... I understand that eternity is outside of our realm. I guess I can kind of see where you're going with this, but it's just a little fuzzy. Maybe I'll get it someday...
Abraham is not mentioned as appearing at the transfiguration (cf. Matthew 17:3; Mark 9:4).
Oops! Don't know why I stuck him in there! It's not like I haven't read or heard that passage often enough! For some reason it just was in my mind. Oh well...
If they are not appearing from Heaven, then from where (they appear to have glorified bodies...)? And if they're not appearing from Heaven, then is it just a vision of things to come, or what?
They do indeed have the representation of glory. They have come from Paradise, the highest and most heaven-like level of the limbo of the Fathers (according to rabbinic teaching) where they await the opening of heaven. Recall that they are in eternity, not time, so the temporal terms “before” and “after” are essentially meaningless. Yet the bible continues to speak in temporal terms, since this is our only experience (cf., for example, Revelation 6:9–11, which actually takes place in eternity). Recall too that we encounter the same difficulty in speaking of purgatory: the cleansing and expiation take place in eternity in a manner unknown to us; it is, as it were, a process without time. And here is where we enter into mystery. We do not experience eternity in our earthly life, so we have no more than a vague concept of it.
Yes, and for me, the answers to this particular question of mine are rather vague. Maybe it's just one of those things that will just hit me one day. It's happened before. One day I was pondering eternity and I just had a sudden revelation about it. I'd been questioning how the concept of Free Will could be reconciled with the concept of "predestination" and some sort of understanding just came to me... point being that I guess there's no use worrying too much about things I don't understand. I mean, sure, I must strive to understand, but if I can't... I suppose that on a "need to know basis," God will teach me what I need to know when - and if - I need to know it.
But thanks for at least giving me some clues, David.
JMJ
- Cheri
____________________
“We do not want a Church that will move with the world; we want a Church that will move the world.”
- G.K. Chesterton
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Talithacumi
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Posted: Sun Apr 15th, 2007 03:11 am |
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cajunrick wrote: ...The limitations you question are limitations placed on those who dwell in eternity. The limits are not placed on God. If God choses to allow Satan to be in the world as well as in hell, and if God choses to allow Moses to appear with Jesus as well as in heaven, then it will be so. They cannot do it on their own, but all things are possible with God.
Rick,
While I'm well aware that "all things are possible with God," and that eternity is different from our life in time, I'm still confused because of the "exclusion" that is supposed to exist between Heaven and Hell. I wrote a reply to David. Maybe you can sort out something of my confusion if you read it... or you can try!
JMJ
- Cheri
____________________
“We do not want a Church that will move with the world; we want a Church that will move the world.”
- G.K. Chesterton
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CajunRick
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Posted: Sun Apr 15th, 2007 09:12 am |
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Talithacumi wrote: cajunrick wrote: ...The limitations you question are limitations placed on those who dwell in eternity. The limits are not placed on God. If God choses to allow Satan to be in the world as well as in hell, and if God choses to allow Moses to appear with Jesus as well as in heaven, then it will be so. They cannot do it on their own, but all things are possible with God.
While I'm well aware that "all things are possible with God," and that eternity is different from our life in time, I'm still confused because of the "exclusion" that is supposed to exist between Heaven and Hell. I wrote a reply to David. Maybe you can sort out something of my confusion if you read it... or you can try!
I do understand. You're thinking "either/or" rather than "both/and". Souls in eternity can be either excluded from other realms or not. The truth is that while they are excluded on their own, God permits certain activity beyond their own realm. We don't understand how or why (it's a mystery), but it is through the action of God and not their own action that actions outside of their own realm are permitted.
The saints in heaven know of our prayers to them not because they are capable of that knowledge on their own, but because God makes them aware. Thus they are both excluded from earth and permitted knolwedge of earthly matters. Demons are permitted to act on earth, so they are both excluded and permitted.
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Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
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David W. Emery
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Posted: Sun Apr 15th, 2007 07:43 pm |
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Thanks for the attempt, but, uhh... I'm still not really clear.
OK, that approach didn’t work. Let’s try another.
Let’s suppose I’m sick. (We need not “suppose” all that much; I’m chronically ill with several congenital conditions. But that’s not the point. So let’s suppose anyway.) I can be sick at home, at work, at the mall or at the beach. Wherever I go, I’m still sick. But so long as my illness is not such as to limit my travel (and we’re supposing it is not), I can go anywhere. A mere change of location would not stop me from being sick, because I carry my malady with me.
Now let’s suppose that mortal sin is a spiritual disease. (Again, we need not “suppose” all that much, since this is pretty close to what it really is. But that’s not the point. So we can suppose anyway.) And let us suppose that the devil, with his disposition, is chronically ill with that disease. The devil can still travel around throughout creation, but wherever he is, he is sick. So if he travels to planet Earth, he remains sick, for the sickness is his hell, not his physical location. He could even be in the presence of God in heaven, but his illness would make him miserable, and that would be hell for him right there.
Now as to the rich man and Lazarus:
“The poor man died and was carried by the angels to Abraham’s bosom. The rich man also died and was buried; and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes, and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus in his bosom. And he called out, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy upon me, and send Lazarus to dip the end of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am in anguish in this flame.’ But Abraham said, ‘Son, remember that you in your lifetime received your good things, and Lazarus in like manner evil things; but now he is comforted here, and you are in anguish. And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, in order that those who would pass from here to you may not be able, and none may cross from there to us’” (Luke 16:22–26 RSVCE).
Note first that this takes place not in heaven or hell but in the limbo of the Fathers (here called Hades, the realm of the dead). Note also that, as we have discussed earlier, spacial terms are used in lieu of existential or attitudinal ones. The rich man can see Abraham and Lazarus “far off.” But he cannot go to them because “a great chasm has been fixed, in order that those who would pass from here to you may not be able, and none may cross from there to us.” This chasm is not a physical barrier but an attitudinal one: the rich man’s heart is hardened, and all he can think of is his own suffering. This is why he cannot join Abraham and Lazarus. The “distance” between selfishness and charity is, as it were, infinite; this is the chasm, the “self-exclusion.”
Exclusion would seem to indicate that there can be no real communication and thus no interaction, wouldn't it? If the citizens of Hell are "excluded" then that says to me that they cannot be "included" in any "life" at all, but can only be counted among the "dead" in their Hell (otherwise known as "absence of God.") And if there is an absence of God, then how can Satan converse with Him?
This is a thornier difficulty that the previous two. I’m not sure I have my thoughts together enough to sort it out and make sense. We’ll see.
First, let me point out that even in hell, there is no “absence of God.” If he were not there at least by his creative power, hell itself would not exist, for all things are held in existence only by his powerful presence. Likewise, those beings, angels or men, who are “in hell” would cease to exist — which we know is not the case, for their suffering is eternal.
But if hell is a state of being, then one could be in the presence of God, and that would be the person’s own private hell because of his hatred and the misery brought about by God’s presence. (I explained this above in the parable of sickness. The “exclusion” is internal, not external.) So for Satan to converse with God is quite possible on this supposition.
Rick tells you that “you’re thinking ‘either/or’ rather than ‘both/and.’” What I’ve been setting before you is not quite that radical. My point has been that there are logical possibilities that you have not considered, possibilities which could eliminate the contradictions you are encountering. In a sense it’s both/and, but mostly it’s more like modifying the conceptual suppositions involved in your dilemma so that they make sense instead of working at cross-purposes. Rick and I are following two different theological traditions in our respective explanations, but we’re not contradicting each other, because either way we arrive at the same conclusion and neither line of thought has been excluded by the Church.
You had the same difficulty with free will and predestination. I’ve studied this problem over the last three years and found that there are ways to work beyond the apparent contradiction, even on the level of dogmatic theology. You seem to have been given an intuition of this; likely you weren’t wading through scholastic terminology and points of logic when it came to you. God sometimes makes things very simple and clear to us. I recall many years ago, shortly after my wife and I were married, she had been struggling with the idea of what Protestantism really was and where it came from. (Her best friend was Protestant.) One day she came up with a surprisingly lucid solution. This is a real feat for someone with no formal schooling. But with God’s grace, all things are possible.
David
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