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twiggymoo
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| Joined: | Fri Oct 13th, 2006 |
| Location: | Maryland USA |
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| First Name: | Twiggymoo | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Nazarene, Free Methodist, Baptist..Romeward bound |
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Posted: Tue Mar 20th, 2007 01:31 pm |
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I was reading "Our Daily Bread" last Sunday, "Religion or Christ?". Well, whenever a Protestant uses that either/or proposition, alarm bells sound. I get annoyed when religion is referred to as a bad word. "My way or the highway" is an either/or argument; "sink or swim", etc...
My dw and I have been having an ongoing disagreement with my proposition that we can have both: Religion and Christ. Why should it be either/or? What is so "evil" about religion (can I get an amen?). We even disagree on my stance on Tradition. The baptist church services we attend are chaotic and have no order, we don't know what to expect, and she agrees with me on that - oh there is the music, the greeting, the sermon and those follow an order but prayers are random, sermons unpredictable in length, and often we can't follow along. I mentioned to my dw that if there were a liturgy, (Tradition), there would be order.
What do you all think about "religion or Christ"? Should it be either/or?? If both/and - how can I present that to my dw???
Don
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Annie
Banned
| Joined: | Wed Feb 14th, 2007 |
| Location: | Columbus, Ohio USA |
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| First Name: | Annie | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | nothing, Quaker, Mennonite, Presbyterian, Methodist, Anglican, Catholic |
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Posted: Tue Mar 20th, 2007 02:24 pm |
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| It seems to me that our religion springs from Christ. He founded the Church. We believe in the one holy, catholic, and apostolic church, which is "religion."
____________________
Annie
Ora et labora
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Steven Barrett
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| Joined: | Tue Nov 14th, 2006 |
| Location: | Hadley, Massachusetts USA |
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| First Name: | Steven | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Catholic, Episcopal communicant, Baptist, Catholic |
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Posted: Tue Mar 20th, 2007 02:29 pm |
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 This is one of the most common conversation killers I've come across when amongst even liberal Baptists. It's sort of like the "either with us or agin' us" proposition Dubya offered the world after 9/11 until reality began to set in.
Actually, I think the choice is very reflective of the simplistic spiritual reasoning I find increasing among the so-called "post-moderns;" people who can't think beyond sound bites into paragraphs, or a new battle cry of evangelicals seeking to make points and a big first impression to get one's attention. They get it alright from me. Depending on my mood, they get it when they see my back getting smaller. Or, I play their bluff and ask them Who founded what we all know as Christianity. (Using the "big C word" will only lead to a premature argument. Keep your best cards tight at first.)
If they say "Christ," well, then you say, "There you go, you've hit the daily double," and politely move away, especially if you're on Protestant turf!
Now, if your inquisitors are really intreprid, they'll start asking why it makes a difference it makes what "religion" within Christianity a person believes in.
This is where the fun begins. And, I'm sure there are other readers and contributors of, and to, this thread, who have more interesting stories to share on this matter.
As for myself, I put to memory a piece of advice from Fr. Richard Neuhaus ("First Things") who said that once a person comes to believe that what the Catholic Church teaches is true, then he or she has to become a Catholic, because the stakes are much too high to simply brush off as a matter of denominational "choice," much like one would choose a college, country club or kind of music.
One of the attractions of this either/or challenge is that it allows the so-called "Bible Christian" a very simple platform to work off of. Why, who wouldn't prefer Christ over anything else? And, why get bogged down in dogmas, doctrines, tradtion, or distinctive traditions, liturgies, hierarchies, and of course, church history prior to 1517? Why would anyone ever want to get into all of that when they only need to open a bible?
It's the old "The Bible sez it, I belive it, that settles it" nonsense.
Of course, if that kind of in-your-face attitude is what you get in return for your labors of trying to give a brief but succinct explanation for your more complicated Catholic elaborations on "churchy-matters," just ask them what Church was the first church, and the only one founded directly by God, not a frustrated monk, priest or a mysoginistic king, and from where did the Church get its material to form what we now know and venerate as the Bible? (You might not get to the stage where you get to explain that Tradition involves more than the different kinds of mitres are worn by bishops, cardinals and popes.)
____________________
For anybody interested in reading commentary from a Catholic's socially conservative/fiscally liberal viewpoint, go to my new blog at http://www.politicsramble.com/ .
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CajunRick
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Posted: Tue Mar 20th, 2007 03:29 pm |
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Alex Jones takes this head-on in his conversion story. As a Pentacostal minister, he promised his congregation a "New Testament Worship Service" like the early Church, and in the process, he discovered liturgy, and that led him directly to the Catholic Church.
Jones has a video and a book called "No Price Too High" that relate his conversion story. Check the "Recommended Resources" for links to purchase them online, or you can get them at your local Catholic store.
____________________
Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
Luquette Lane
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Steven Barrett
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| Joined: | Tue Nov 14th, 2006 |
| Location: | Hadley, Massachusetts USA |
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| First Name: | Steven | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Catholic, Episcopal communicant, Baptist, Catholic |
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Posted: Wed Mar 21st, 2007 02:04 pm |
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Cajunrick, Thanks for the tip on Alex Jones' book. Although I've got a stack of books to read now, I will get around to reading this book. By the way, I'm doing my "ecumenical thing" this weekend with the church I volunteer at by attending a "Promise Keepers'" local gathering in a megachurch (what else!) outside of Hartford. When I get around to perusing the book tables, I'll check to see if Jones' book is included.
Fat chance of that!
____________________
For anybody interested in reading commentary from a Catholic's socially conservative/fiscally liberal viewpoint, go to my new blog at http://www.politicsramble.com/ .
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Darlene
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| Joined: | Mon Oct 9th, 2006 |
| Location: | Pocono Mountains, Pennsylvania USA |
| Posts: | 868 |
| First Name: | Darlene | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Christian, trusting His love and forgiveness |
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Posted: Thu Mar 22nd, 2007 03:36 pm |
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Steven Barrett wrote: Cajunrick, Thanks for the tip on Alex Jones' book. Although I've got a stack of books to read now, I will get around to reading this book. By the way, I'm doing my "ecumenical thing" this weekend with the church I volunteer at by attending a "Promise Keepers'" local gathering in a megachurch (what else!) outside of Hartford. When I get around to perusing the book tables, I'll check to see if Jones' book is included.
Fat chance of that!
Hey there Steven,
Promise Keepers?! Hmmmm....Aren't they all-inclusive and ecumenical? Don't they even accept Mormons as Christians? Or am I ill-informed? Anyway, have a great time. Actually, maybe you will glean some truths from sacred scripture. A number of years ago, some of the men from the Reformed Baptist Church we attended, went to a Promise Keepers convention. They came back with many "negative" reports, said they would never attend PK again.
Let us know how it went. I am interested to find out how that organization has progressed in the past several years. Perhaps there will not be any anti-Catholic sentiment there. If they are ecumenical as much as they used to be, I can't see how they would be anti-Catholic.
God Bless You,
Darlene
____________________
The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all. II Corinthians 13:14
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CajunRick
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Posted: Thu Mar 22nd, 2007 03:51 pm |
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Darlene wrote: Steven Barrett wrote: By the way, I'm doing my "ecumenical thing" this weekend with the church I volunteer at by attending a "Promise Keepers'" local gathering in a megachurch (what else!) outside of Hartford. When I get around to perusing the book tables, I'll check to see if Jones' book is included.
Fat chance of that!
Promise Keepers?! Hmmmm....Aren't they all-inclusive and ecumenical? Don't they even accept Mormons as Christians? Or am I ill-informed?
My understanding of Promise Keepers (which I admit is limited) is that they are not so much anti-Catholic as non-Catholic, and non-everything else as well. The message is one of responbility rather than faith, or they may generically speak of faith in God, but certainly no denomination or religion. I think they appeal to Christians, Jews, Muslims, and everyone else, including agnostics. I'm not sure how they would handle athiests.
However, such functions usually rent table space to vendors who can sell whatever they want, and it's not likely any of the vendors will be selling Catholic material. Then again, I could be wrong.
Yes, please let us know how it turns out.
____________________
Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
Luquette Lane
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Darlene
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Posted: Thu Mar 22nd, 2007 04:09 pm |
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twiggymoo wrote: I was reading "Our Daily Bread" last Sunday, "Religion or Christ?". Well, whenever a Protestant uses that either/or proposition, alarm bells sound. I get annoyed when religion is referred to as a bad word. "My way or the highway" is an either/or argument; "sink or swim", etc...
My dw and I have been having an ongoing disagreement with my proposition that we can have both: Religion and Christ. Why should it be either/or? What is so "evil" about religion (can I get an amen?). We even disagree on my stance on Tradition. The baptist church services we attend are chaotic and have no order, we don't know what to expect, and she agrees with me on that - oh there is the music, the greeting, the sermon and those follow an order but prayers are random, sermons unpredictable in length, and often we can't follow along. I mentioned to my dw that if there were a liturgy, (Tradition), there would be order.
What do you all think about "religion or Christ"? Should it be either/or?? If both/and - how can I present that to my dw???
Don
Hi Don,
I have had this conversation about religion v.s. Christ many times with my husband. In fact, just recently we touched upon this subject. We were discussing the liturgy and prayers, such as the Apostles Creed and the Our Father. My dh went on to say that he said those prayers many times in the Episcopal Church and never appreciated their meaning. He just said them by rote, as did many others. He said it just became "religion" to him. That was when I said that religion, in and of itself, is not wrong. In fact, I quoted the verse that says, "Religion that is pure and undefiled before God and the Father is this: to visit widows and orphans in their affliction, and to keep oneself unstained from the world." James 1:27
I went on to say that the prayers and the liturgy were/are not wrong. In fact, they are orthodox and are true expressions of our Christian faith. These "dogmas" keep us rooted and grounded in the truths of scripture and our Christian heritage. They were part of Christian worship since the early Church, that Christians would "know" their faith. It is not the fault of prayers, liturgy, or any other such "traditions" practiced in the Christian faith that people become unaware or ignorant of their meaning. Rather, it is the hardness of a person's heart that causes them to react flippantly or without regard for the precious truths of our faith.
This past week, our pastor said something that nearly floored me. The sermon was on of all things, worship. He asked everyone in the congregation if they had ever worshipped in a Catholic or Episcopal Church. Many hands were raised, over half of the congregation! I was bracing myself for another anti-Catholic diatribe. Instead, he said, "What I love about these churches is that they have kneelers. I think it is wonderful if we can kneel while worshipping God. I think in our protestant faith, there are ways in our protesting that we threw the baby out with the bath water." All I could think of is that my prayers must be working! I have been praying that the pastor will be more open to the Catholic faith.
Anyhow, I can truly understand your situation with your wife. And I have come to appreciate the Catholic perspective of looking at the many sides, not just either/or. After all, if one carries that either/or to its extreme, one wouldn't bother going to church. Ex: Church can just be a motion we go through. So why go to church if it is just a motion. After all, I can worship God anywhere. He isn't just limited to a building. So, why should I go to church, if it justs ends up being a ritual?
Hellooooo! Attending church isn't the problem. It is our attitude that is the problem. Attitude, in everything that we do, is the crux of the matter. St. Paul said it best. "If I give away all that I have, and deliver my body to be burned, but have not love, I gain nothing." I Cor. 13:3 So, in whatever we do, in word or deed, we need to do all to the glory of God.
Love in Christ,
Darlene
____________________
The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all. II Corinthians 13:14
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twiggymoo
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| Joined: | Fri Oct 13th, 2006 |
| Location: | Maryland USA |
| Posts: | 36 |
| First Name: | Twiggymoo | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Nazarene, Free Methodist, Baptist..Romeward bound |
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Posted: Thu Mar 22nd, 2007 08:20 pm |
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Thank you all for your responses. It very difficult to convince someone who believes she knows all there is to know about the Catholic Church - since she was raised in it in Italy! I get accused of idol worship and spiritual adultery by a mere mention of Mary. I know my dw is very concerned about my soul and believes me to be in danger of hell. With this, I am a bit discouraged and back off on even my private Rosary ritual. I feel that I am breaking up my marriage by continuing to have this discussion with her. But often, she brings it up. She will see a co-worker who is Catholic do or say something and says, "see, that's a Catholic". Or her Catholic boss has a picture of Mary in her office and she says, see, she worships idols (Mary). She has a few Catholic co-workers and all of them have some issue that convinces her that they don't love Jesus. Well, I can't argue with that.
I pray that there would be one Catholic that would stand out in her mind who is devout and holy. My dw has a big obstacle standing in her way to Truth - it is so easy to speak evil of holy things - especially now when among modern evangelicals, there is no sense of the Sacred anymore. Churches are like concert halls, worse, like rock concert halls. I sometimes wonder if I love the Catholic Church for spite - I do have issues with my Protestant past and present. But I read so many conversion stories and most of them appreciate their Protestant pasts.
I have often said I will disengage my interest in the Church and forget about it - but 10 years have gone by since I began this journey to Rome and I am still here.
Regards,
Don
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Truthseeker
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| Joined: | Wed Oct 4th, 2006 |
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| First Name: | Laura | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | lapsed and returned CATHOLIC!!!!!! |
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Posted: Thu Mar 22nd, 2007 08:30 pm |
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The word religion means to re-bind, as in re-bind oneself to God. It is the "way" one worships and relates to God. So all protestants practice religion, too. They just don't call it that - and they would deny it, but necer the less, they do it.
I have never thought of religion as a bad word, and even less so now, after learning what it means.
Love, Laura
____________________
Lord, please make my will your Will!
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CajunRick
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Posted: Thu Mar 22nd, 2007 09:38 pm |
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twiggymoo wrote: It very difficult to convince someone who believes she knows all there is to know about the Catholic Church - since she was raised in it in Italy!
There is a Catholic web store that has an item called a pyx which is used to carry the Blessed Sacrament to the sick. It is lined with plastic, which is not allowed by the Church. (Only a "noble material" can come in contact with the Blessed Sacrament, and plastic isn't "noble.") I complained, and they responded that it must be OK because it was imported from Italy!
Is that like saying someone must be in the Mafia because they're from Sicily? Or they must be dumb because they're blonde. Italy these days is one of the least Catholic countries in Europe!
____________________
Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
Luquette Lane
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twiggymoo
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Posted: Fri Mar 23rd, 2007 09:00 am |
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cajunrick wrote: twiggymoo wrote: It very difficult to convince someone who believes she knows all there is to know about the Catholic Church - since she was raised in it in Italy!
Italy these days is one of the least Catholic countries in Europe!
Good point.
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Steven Barrett
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Posted: Fri Mar 23rd, 2007 12:04 pm |
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Pray for me brothers and sisters!
Looks like I'll be one of the very few and far in-between idol worshippers and soldiers of the Satan's Synagogue attending this mini-woodstock of he-men, male chauvinists for God meetings. From what I hear, this year they're going to install special detectors just for Muslims, Mormons, and for those most suspicious apostates of all time, Papists.
Something tells me I'm going to feel just as much at home as a Promise Keeper at a National Organization of Women pow-wow. An abusive fat-couch potato husband on "Dr. Phil." Best yet, candidate John Edwards at a Promise Keepers' rally and John Kerry speaking before the annual EWTN summer conference with Fr. Corapi and Marcus Grodi sitting in the front row. (That'd be worth putting on the tube!)
Seriously though, this gathering reflects the general make-up and organization of what used to be the huge PK rallies in stadiums back during their hey days of the 90s. I went to the one in Shea Stadium back in 96. In fact, in the row before us sat a Catholic priest and his group of about 10 or so parishioners and they loved it.
The speakers are all evangelical Protestant, but since they know there's a strong likelihood of us Papists getting in on an affirmative action program of sorts, there's none of the usual catholic-baiting rhetoric. None, that I can recall. But there's a lot of the usual Praise/Worship singing, rally talk, classes and seminars on how to help men become better men, husbands and fathers, and above all, better Christian men.
Speaking of the chosen few Catholics, there is one fellow, Paul Ramunni, from CT who's had a table at each of the past events I've been to over the last 3 years. His ministry is called The Poor Catholic. (Sometimes I think he could also be called the Poor (Lonely) Catholic.) http://thepoorcatholic.com/index.htm[url][/url]
Check out his website. Paul's a very congenial fellow and indeed a dedicated Catholic, poor or otherwise. Poor in spirit, he's not!
My problem is that I'm always too poor to buy (his) book. Besides, my wife doesn't need any more books in the house, especially one about poor Catholics, when she's married to one! So here's my plug for this stalwart missionary representing "Satan's Synagogue" and legion of fellow idol-worshippers. (I owe him at least a plug since he saved me a boodle on a tip concerning a head's up on a publishing house I was thinking of using for a book I hoped to see published. That house wasn't chosen and I've still got the book "in the can," so - to - speak.)
As for Italy being "lost" to the Church, well, it was even admittedly a rough and hard slog for the Vatican and it's very charismatically gifted Polish "Papa" and his Bavarian successor to crack. The women remain faithful, but it's really hard to get the guys away from skirt-chasing, soccer and fast cars.
But, with God all things are possible. Catholics are cracking largely Protestant shape-up-the-guys gatherings (and even liking them!) What's to say the boyos in Italy and other parts of "old Europe" won't wake up soon enough to realize there'll be no fast women, fast cars and fast-paced soccer games in hell. (There might be an autobahn, though.)
I'll keep you posted on my "Recon Mission" but only after my wife debriefs me first to see if I learned anything to give her beyond the usual, "Oh, there was lots to learn ... uh ... wait'll later, but first, what's for dinner?"
____________________
For anybody interested in reading commentary from a Catholic's socially conservative/fiscally liberal viewpoint, go to my new blog at http://www.politicsramble.com/ .
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brian
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Posted: Fri Mar 23rd, 2007 01:56 pm |
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I was trained in an evangelization course to use the religion vs relationship argument. Now I hate that I made this distinction, though at times it was an effective way to get some people to think. I would argue beingsaved has nothing to do with being religious, but with having a relationship with God. I now realize this argument is specifically aimed at people from a Catholic background. The thing is, it is a good question and challenge. But CAtholics would tell you as much as an evangelical that religion without conversion of heart or sincerity will not mean anything. How much good could receiving the Eucharist or going to confesssion do for you if you don't know or believe prpoerly. If you don't care that it is Jesus, or you are not really sorry for your sins. So I like what this question attempts to do. But I would now change my view to religion without relationship is weak, but relationship without true religion is also a terrible thing. It is authentic relationship nurtured by true religion, or true religion creating authentic relationship. Not one or the other. So now my goal if I was challenging someone would be to simply see how I could get the religion they practice to be meaningful. To challenge them to put their hearts into each sign of the cross, gunuflection, formal prayer, sacrament receiving, etc....but to also suggest personal interaction with God before and after and along therse things.
Basically what the Catholic Church has most likely been suggesting since the beginning of Christianity. People think Catholics are not saved or don't know God personally, because we don't use those types of terms as often (though it seems to be cathching up) but the religion has always led us to repent, worship Christ, pray, do good to others. Basically rather than theorizing about what a relationship with God is or was, it teaches us to have one and gives us a safe place to do so without having to worry as much about interpretation or individuality.
The weakness is with people perhaps getting to used to the actions without a deeper conversion of heart, or when they simply perform the actions as a minimum effort. In order for it to work we must truly mean what we say when we say 'we lift them up (our hearts) to the Lord' The weakness is when people ask no questions are not properly challenged by the leadership. It is weak becausebeing souch a system it is possible to look right, while slipping through the cracks. It is weak because of people doing it out of family or social pressure rather than sincerity. Still I would rather they be there than not be there. It is weak because sometimes everything is told to you, and you maybe fail to ask the significant questions or find it for yourself.
Still, with all these "weaknesses" I ultimately think it is not a matter of throwing out religion, but one of reviving our hearts to understand how holy and wonderful what is being taught and performed each day in the mass. Just as one should never take love for granted or tired of being nurtured and loved by ones family, so should we strive to open our ears and hear.
Anyway, Sorry if I got carried away. This is not something I imagine many or any of you on this board need to hear, but just my musings on the subject of religion vs. relationship.
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Juan
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Posted: Fri Mar 23rd, 2007 07:49 pm |
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I was reading "Our Daily Bread" last Sunday, "Religion or Christ?". Well, whenever a Protestant uses that either/or proposition, alarm bells sound. I get annoyed when religion is referred to as a bad word. "My way or the highway" is an either/or argument; "sink or swim", etc... My dw and I have been having an ongoing disagreement with my proposition that we can have both: Religion and Christ.
Why should it be either/or?
It shouldn't.
What is so "evil" about religion
Nothing.
(can I get an amen?).
Amen!
We even disagree on my stance on Tradition.
Have you explained to your wife that the Bible says we must keep traditions?
2 Thessalonians 2:15
Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.
The baptist church services we attend are chaotic and have no order, we don't know what to expect, and she agrees with me on that - oh there is the music, the greeting, the sermon and those follow an order but prayers are random, sermons unpredictable in length, and often we can't follow along. I mentioned to my dw that if there were a liturgy, (Tradition), there would be order.
1 Corinthians 1433For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.....40Let all things be done decently and in order.
What do you all think about "religion or Christ"?
Annie put it very well when she said our religion springs from Christ.
Should it be either/or??
No.
If both/and - how can I present that to my dw???
Prayerfully.
I suggest you pray a Novena for the intention. And then just talk to her as you normally would. Everything you've said makes sense. Her heart needs to be opened to that question and only God can do that.
I also like what Laura said:
The word religion means to re-bind, as in re-bind oneself to God. It is the "way" one worships and relates to God.
As I was concluding this message, it occurred to me that it is no wonder that Protestantism is the religion of divorce.
A person who is faithful is one who does the things he is supposed to do. He is one who can be trusted and depended upon to do the things he is supposed to do, even when he doesn't feel like it.
A person who is religious is very much the same. If a person is religious about his training, he trains diligently every day, performs his duties everyday, even when he doesn't feel like it.
Our faith is our religion and if we can't be counted upon to perform our faith religiously, then we are not faithful. Why? Because we are not religious?
This leads to divorce. It leads to divorce in marriage and it leads to divorce from God.
Sincerely,
Juan
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