CHNI Forums Home

Search
   
Members

Calendar

Help

CHNI Home
Search by username
Not logged in - Login | Register for Posting Access 
CHNI Forums > Questions about Catholicism > The Church > Newman's "An Essay on the Development of Christian Doctrine"


Newman's "An Essay on the Development of Christian Doctrine"
 Moderated by: Marcus, Dave Armstrong  

New Topic

Reply

Print
AuthorPost
JillD
Member


Joined: Fri Sep 29th, 2006
Location: Visalia, California USA
Posts: 1001
First Name: Jill
Gender: Female
Faith History: heathen, EvFree, Messianic, LC-MS, Catholic 2007
Status:  Offline
 Posted: Wed Jul 16th, 2008 06:24 pm

Quote

Reply
Indeed, this is quite a tome...   Is there a summary available, or another text which covers the same ideas but "The Dummies Guide to..." version perhaps?  I and my daughter would like to follow his thinking, but I'm not sure I want to invest that much time.  Also, I suspect it contains fairly lofty prose which would be fine for my dd, but my brain can't do that any more - if it ever could. 

Thanks



____________________
"I praise you, for I am wondrously made. Wonderful are our works! My frame was not hidden from you, when I was being made in secret." Ps 139
"Guard me, O Lord, from the hands of the wicked; preserve me from violent men." Ps 140

Quote

Reply
Dave Armstrong
Network Apologist


Joined: Fri Nov 2nd, 2007
Location: Melvindale, Michigan USA
Posts: 2445
First Name: Dave
Gender: Male
Faith History: Evangelical (1977): Diverse Protestant Influences / Catholic in 1990
Status:  Offline
 Posted: Wed Jul 16th, 2008 07:31 pm

Quote

Reply
Hi Jill,

This paper of mine, that was published in the Coming Home Journal, gives it a shot (it's a version of my conversion but heavily concentrated on Newman and development, because that was a key reason why I became a Catholic):

How Newman Convinced me of the Apostolicity of the Catholic Church

If that is too long, perhaps some of my introductions to development of doctrine would serve your purpose:

An Introduction to Development of Doctrine


Development of Doctrine: A Corruption of Biblical Teaching?


Overview of Development of Doctrine (Transcript of a Television Interview)

For tons more on all aspects of development (my favorite theological topic), see my web page on the topic.

 



____________________
I'm happy to offer whatever theological & personal assistance I can. My blog, Biblical Evidence for Catholicism, contains 2100+ papers & web pages (free) & 17 apologetic books (4 sale: 15 E-Books: $25)
http://www.biblicalcatholic.com/

Quote

Reply
JillD
Member


Joined: Fri Sep 29th, 2006
Location: Visalia, California USA
Posts: 1001
First Name: Jill
Gender: Female
Faith History: heathen, EvFree, Messianic, LC-MS, Catholic 2007
Status:  Offline
 Posted: Wed Jul 16th, 2008 10:07 pm

Quote

Reply
I have the first link printing out right now.  I've asked her to give me a summary of your summary.  I glanced through what you'd written.  It looks very academic.  I think she'll like it...   Will let you know.....



____________________
"I praise you, for I am wondrously made. Wonderful are our works! My frame was not hidden from you, when I was being made in secret." Ps 139
"Guard me, O Lord, from the hands of the wicked; preserve me from violent men." Ps 140

Quote

Reply
JillD
Member


Joined: Fri Sep 29th, 2006
Location: Visalia, California USA
Posts: 1001
First Name: Jill
Gender: Female
Faith History: heathen, EvFree, Messianic, LC-MS, Catholic 2007
Status:  Offline
 Posted: Thu Jul 17th, 2008 12:33 am

Quote

Reply
I read it first.  Very good!  It's fascinating all the different "doors" through which God brings people into the Church.  I've never heard a testimony quite like yours.

A couple of questions.  Can you dilineate for me Newman's 7 characteristics of all true developments?  I think they're in this paragraph, but how does it break down into 7?

The venerable Cardinal then defines seven characteristics of all true developments:
It becomes necessary . . . to assign certain characteristics of faithful developments . . . the presence of which serves as a test to discriminate between them and corruptions . . . I venture to set down Seven Notes . . . as follows: - There is no corruption if it retains one and the same type, the same principles, the same organization; if its beginnings anticipate its subsequent phases, and its later phenomena protect and subserve its earlier; if it has a power of assimilation and revival, and a vigorous action from first to last. (23)

Also, you used this term in passing, but how does the Protestant view of justification differ from the Catholic, especially with reference to the adjectives you used here:
imputed, extrinsic, forensic justification

I think this will enter into some esoteric theology to give me the answer, but I'd still like to try to get it.

It was sort of an "of course!" response I had to Newman's thesis, but I'd never considered before how Protestant theology is absolutely NOT a development of doctrine from the apostles and ECF's but a derailing and brand new thing!  I gather that this concept is one that really struck you, too, if I'm reading your essay correctly.

Dave, what is your biography?  What did you major in in college?  I was telling my daughter how amazing it is that you have the ability and the time and the INCLINATION to digest all this heady stuff, critique it, and make it a little more accessible to the rest of us.  She said, "But, Mom, that's FUN!"  How I hope and pray that she continues the journey with me, she and the rest of my family, into the Catholic Church.  As I've said before, I'm glad we have YOU on our side, and I would definitely want HER here, too!

Jill



____________________
"I praise you, for I am wondrously made. Wonderful are our works! My frame was not hidden from you, when I was being made in secret." Ps 139
"Guard me, O Lord, from the hands of the wicked; preserve me from violent men." Ps 140

Quote

Reply
Dave Armstrong
Network Apologist


Joined: Fri Nov 2nd, 2007
Location: Melvindale, Michigan USA
Posts: 2445
First Name: Dave
Gender: Male
Faith History: Evangelical (1977): Diverse Protestant Influences / Catholic in 1990
Status:  Offline
 Posted: Thu Jul 17th, 2008 06:20 pm

Quote

Reply
Hi Jill,

I read it first.  Very good! 

Thanx!

It's fascinating all the different "doors" through which God brings people into the Church.  I've never heard a testimony quite like yours.

Yes, it is interesting to see how God draws people (conversion stories are very cool for that). My interest was always in history: particularly history of ideas (that I absolutely love), and to some extent, also moral theology. So God used all those things to bring me along. Cardinal Newman was "da man"!



A couple of questions.  Can you dilineate for me Newman's 7 characteristics of all true developments?  I think they're in this paragraph, but how does it break down into 7?




The venerable Cardinal then defines seven characteristics of all true developments: It becomes necessary . . . to assign certain characteristics of faithful developments . . . the presence of which serves as a test to discriminate between them and corruptions . . . I venture to set down Seven Notes . . . as follows: - There is no corruption if it retains one and the same type, the same principles, the same organization; if its beginnings anticipate its subsequent phases, and its later phenomena protect and subserve its earlier; if it has a power of assimilation and revival, and a vigorous action from first to last. (23)


They're all there:

1) it (a doctrine) retains one and the same type,

2) it retains the same principles,

3) it retains the same organization;

4) its beginnings anticipate its subsequent phases, 

5) its later phenomena protect and subserve its earlier;

6) it has a power of assimilation and revival, and

7) it has a vigorous action from first to last.
 

Also, you used this term in passing, but how does the Protestant view of justification differ from the Catholic, especially with reference to the adjectives you used here: imputed, extrinsic, forensic justification

Here is one of the best explanations of the difference I've found, from former Lutheran Louis Bouyer, in his superb book, The Spirit and Forms of Protestantism:



"The further Luther advanced in his conflict with other theologians, then with Rome, then with the whole of contemporary Catholicism and finally with the Catholicism of every age, the more closely we see him identifying his affirmation about `sola gratia' with a particular theory, known as extrinsic justification. That is to say, he himself unites two statements so closely that they become inseparable - one an affirmation, grace alone saves us; the second a negation, it changes nothing in us in so doing. To recall a simile he himself popularised, the grace of God envelops us as in a cloak, but this grace leaves us exactly as we were. The sinner, after receiving grace and so saved, is no less a sinner than before . . .

"Justification by faith is not nearly so important to St. Paul as to Luther, but has been forcibly crammed by the latter into texts which in fact do not mention it . . . Without the least doubt, grace, for St. Paul, however freely given, involves what he calls `the new creation', the appearance in us of a `new man', created in justice and holiness. So far from suppressing the efforts of man, or making them a matter of indifference, or at least irrelevant to salvation, he himself tells us to `work out your salvation with fear and trembling', at the very moment when he affirms that `. . . knowing that it is God who works in you both to will and to accomplish'. These two expressions say better than any other that all is grace in our salvation, but at the same time grace is not opposed to human acts and endeavour in order to attain salvation, but arouses them and exacts their performance . . .

"Extrinsic justification, a justification independent of any interior change, of any new capability given to man to perform acts pleasing of themselves to God, is so far from being a Pauline doctrine that it is quite irreconcilable with the whole body of his teaching.

"Calvin . . . was quite conscious of this, and applied himself with some success to correcting Luther on this point. None the less, the clear-cut distinction he tried to draw between justification and sanctification, while willingly admitting that they are inseparable in fact, cannot be maintained in a scientific exegesis. Scripture, even St. Paul alone, apart from the evidence of the four Gospels, sweeps aside the last dialectical device for safeguarding the theory of extrinsic justification . . .

"The uneasiness felt by Protestant systems opposed to Catholicism is nowhere so evident than in the long controversy on the meaning in St. Paul of the word `dikaioo,' to justify. All Protestant exegetes, anxious to safeguard the expressions used by Luther and Calvin, set out to show that it can only mean `to declare just', not `to make just'; that is, it applies merely to extrinsic justice, which has nothing real to correspond with it in the person justified. Nevertheless, modern scientific exegesis unanimously acknowledges that the word can only mean `to declare officially just someone who is so in reality'. Even the idea of the Word of God creating what he says by the act of saying it - so well drawn out by Barth from the entire Bible - would be enough to show that God makes just whom he `declares just', even if he were not so beforehand, by the very fact of his declaration, so the opposition set up is without meaning."


 
I think this will enter into some esoteric theology to give me the answer, but I'd still like to try to get it.

It's not too difficult, I don't think. The classic Protestant position is that justification is a declaration that doesn't actually change the sinner. The justified person then does good works by the Holy Spirit, in gratefulness for his already-declared salvation (sanctification). But these works have nothing formally to do with salvation, whereas Catholicism makes faith and works two sides of the same coin, as James teaches.

C.S. Lewis (as an Anglican his theology was considerably "Catholic") said that discussing faith and works was like figuring out which blade in a pair of scissors is more important. Martin Luther, I hasten to add, while formally or abstractly separating faith and works, still puts a huge emphasis on the necessity of works as the proof of an authentic faith (and Calvin would agree, too). See:

Martin Luther on Sanctification and the Absolute Necessity of Good Works as the Proof of Authentic Faith

Catholic apologist Peter Kreeft wrote, along these same lines:

"Even if the two sides did disagree about the relationship between faith and works, they both agreed (1) that faith is absolutely necessary for salvation and (2) that we are absolutely commanded by God to do good works. Both these two points are unmistakably clear in Scripture . . .

"When Luther taught that we are saved by faith alone, he meant by salvation only the initial step, justification, being put right with God. But when Trent said we are saved by good works as well as faith, they meant by salvation the whole process by which God brings us to our eternal destiny and that process includes faith, hope, and charity, the works of love . . .

(Fundamentals of the Faith, San Francisco: Ignatius Press, 1988, somewhere between p. 277 and p. 281: I'm too lazy to look)
It was sort of an "of course!" response I had to Newman's thesis,

That "of course" reply was the single most important element in my conversion.

but I'd never considered before how Protestant theology is absolutely NOT a development of doctrine from the apostles

Where they disagree with us, the doctrines are, in my opinion, corruptions of the apostolic deposit and patristic heritage, and not true developments. Other times they take a truth and exaggerate it way beyond what is proper (such as sola Scriptura), or they apply a peculiar "either/or" approach when it should be the biblical, Catholic, sometimes paradoxical or partially mysterious "both/and".

and ECF's but a derailing and brand new thing! 

Indeed. Historically-oriented Protrestants will fight such a contention tooth and nail (believe me, I know, in my line of work!), but I've never been impressed by the historical / patristic case they try to make, in my many debates with them. They can't prevail in such a debate because (simply put) the facts are just not on their side.

I gather that this concept is one that really struck you, too, if I'm reading your essay correctly.

Absolutely.

Dave, what is your biography? 

Rather than go into that, I'll direct you towards web pages that have (in various papers) my history:


Personal Page: "Who's This Dave Armstrong Character?"
 
Conversion and Converts
 


What did you major in in college? 



Sociology, with a minor in psychology, and several courses also in philosophy and history. I didn't become really interested in theology till my last year of college (at age 22), when I attended Inter-Varsity Fellowship and went to a new church that sort of (in conjunction with the Holy Spirit!) gave me a kick in the pants spiritually. My theology and apologetics (apart from sermons, Bible studies, etc.) is entirely self-taught. I've never taken a college-level or seminary course in theology. But I've been at it now for 27 years: off and on as my occupation.



I've known that I was called to do apologetics and evangelism as my vocation since 1981. It's taken all the time from 1981 till now for me to be able to do it full-time and to have a decent income (i.e., all from apologetics and writing) so that I don't have to sweat every bill. Lots of dues-payin' and non-theological jobs to make ends meet, all those years! I doubt that I would have been willing if I had known what I would have to go through all those years, but I'm glad I kept at it. I'm sure happy we don't know the future. We wouldn't make a tenth of the choices we make in life. 




I was telling my daughter how amazing it is that you have the ability and the time and the INCLINATION to digest all this heady stuff, critique it, and make it a little more accessible to the rest of us. 



All glory to God for the gifts and desires that He grants to each of us. You're very kind, but we need to always recognize where the source of anything good comes from. I'm just a willing vessel, and even the willingness is solely due to the grace of God. That's good Catholic theology (not just Protestant!).




She said, "But, Mom, that's FUN!" 



Yes! If you like this sort of thing, it is. I love it. That's why I have unlimited motivation. This ultimately comes from God, too: 




God is at work in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.



(Philippians 2:13; RSV)

I have time because folks are willing to buy my books (so I can pay my bills), and this great job allows me to do what I love, too, courtesy of the good folks at CHNI. It's been a tremendous blessing to me and my family these past nine months. 




How I hope and pray that she continues the journey with me, she and the rest of my family, into the Catholic Church. 



Sounds like she may be beginning that road. If she has a lot of intellectual curiosity and interest in theology and history, I think you can help urge her along further, so that her own affinities will sort of pick up the ball and run with it. Chesterton said that whoever tries to be merely fair to the Catholic Church, winds up inevitably being attracted to it.



Whether or not she ever "popes," though, it sounds like she is a wonderful Christian, and will be an asset to the Body of Christ (in the larger, ecumenical sense of the word). You should be very proud. Don't push conversion on anyone, but if they are asking questions, run with that as much as you can, for sure, because it is voluntary on their part. For thinkers, intellectual curiosity is enough to drive them forward.



This is what blew me away about Cardinal Newman: it was the combination of a profound Catholic faith and equally profound genius-intellect (and fabulous prose as well). He remains my "intellectual hero" to this day. I have no doubt that he will not only be declared a saint in due course, but also a Doctor of the Church.




 

Last edited on Thu Jul 17th, 2008 06:22 pm by Dave Armstrong



____________________
I'm happy to offer whatever theological & personal assistance I can. My blog, Biblical Evidence for Catholicism, contains 2100+ papers & web pages (free) & 17 apologetic books (4 sale: 15 E-Books: $25)
http://www.biblicalcatholic.com/

Quote

Reply
JillD
Member


Joined: Fri Sep 29th, 2006
Location: Visalia, California USA
Posts: 1001
First Name: Jill
Gender: Female
Faith History: heathen, EvFree, Messianic, LC-MS, Catholic 2007
Status:  Offline
 Posted: Thu Jul 17th, 2008 07:49 pm

Quote

Reply
Thank you, Dave, for helping me understand that justification thing.  Having been Lutheran for a time, I did know that, but wasn't familiar with those terms, especially the "forensic" one.  Yep, Luther called us all "dung heaps covered with snow."  I much prefer the Catholic perspective, that we are all "new creations."  Much more hopeful.

Also, thanks for delineating those 7 points.  How in the world can Protestants believe that their doctrines are "developments" and not completely new ideas?  (I can't even remember how I thought in my former days.  I feel like I've always been Catholic.  My former way of thinking makes no sense to me any more.)

I'm sure glad to have you on our team.  (I think I've said that before.)  You are incredibly prolific!  I looked over your site and there's so MUCH there, I wouldn't know where to begin...  You do have a beautiful family, too!

God bless!
Jill



____________________
"I praise you, for I am wondrously made. Wonderful are our works! My frame was not hidden from you, when I was being made in secret." Ps 139
"Guard me, O Lord, from the hands of the wicked; preserve me from violent men." Ps 140

Quote

Reply
Dave Armstrong
Network Apologist


Joined: Fri Nov 2nd, 2007
Location: Melvindale, Michigan USA
Posts: 2445
First Name: Dave
Gender: Male
Faith History: Evangelical (1977): Diverse Protestant Influences / Catholic in 1990
Status:  Offline
 Posted: Thu Jul 17th, 2008 08:10 pm

Quote

Reply
Jill, you're being way too nice to me. You'll have to give me a hard time to balance it out. :eyeroll: :cool:



____________________
I'm happy to offer whatever theological & personal assistance I can. My blog, Biblical Evidence for Catholicism, contains 2100+ papers & web pages (free) & 17 apologetic books (4 sale: 15 E-Books: $25)
http://www.biblicalcatholic.com/

Quote

Reply
JillD
Member


Joined: Fri Sep 29th, 2006
Location: Visalia, California USA
Posts: 1001
First Name: Jill
Gender: Female
Faith History: heathen, EvFree, Messianic, LC-MS, Catholic 2007
Status:  Offline
 Posted: Thu Jul 17th, 2008 08:23 pm

Quote

Reply
If I give you a hard time, you'll give me too much to read!

:drowning:



____________________
"I praise you, for I am wondrously made. Wonderful are our works! My frame was not hidden from you, when I was being made in secret." Ps 139
"Guard me, O Lord, from the hands of the wicked; preserve me from violent men." Ps 140

Quote

Reply
Dave Armstrong
Network Apologist


Joined: Fri Nov 2nd, 2007
Location: Melvindale, Michigan USA
Posts: 2445
First Name: Dave
Gender: Male
Faith History: Evangelical (1977): Diverse Protestant Influences / Catholic in 1990
Status:  Offline
 Posted: Thu Jul 17th, 2008 08:25 pm

Quote

Reply
Naw, that's when I get in trouble, by recommending too many of my own blasted words! :roflol:



____________________
I'm happy to offer whatever theological & personal assistance I can. My blog, Biblical Evidence for Catholicism, contains 2100+ papers & web pages (free) & 17 apologetic books (4 sale: 15 E-Books: $25)
http://www.biblicalcatholic.com/

Quote

Reply

 Current time is 09:56 am
CHNI Forums > Questions about Catholicism > The Church > Newman's "An Essay on the Development of Christian Doctrine"




Powered by WowBB 1.7 - Copyright © 2003-2006 Aycan Gulez