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rbo4u2
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Posted: Mon Dec 24th, 2007 01:36 pm |
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OK. Rick. I've got my new topic page. And oh...by the way Dave et al. The picture is a ferret! Not a rabbit. (I think) Found it on somewhere else.
To continue from what I began on the Christmas card thread.
Did Jesus intend for the church to become a monolithic structure? I can agree with apostolic succession, at least up to a point at this time. I can go along with the sacraments. But did Christ really have in mind a huge bureaucratic structure? I struggle with this. Everything about Jesus was simple and sacrificial. Servanthood was his emphasis and pattern of ministry.
However, what I see now in the Catholic church is a huge bureaucracy, more political in many ways, than pastoral. Did Christ really envision this? Having said that, the point I suppose is mute. What's there is there.
Secondly, Does the church put too much emphasis on laws and regulations and teaching?
This was an issue Jesus specifically dealt with. The sacrificial, suffering servanthood of Jesus went counter to the whole Judaic system. The whole idea of "teaching" and "making" people do what is right simply did not work. But his approach of simply serving and loving was how he taught. The emphasis was on "how can I give myself to my brother or sister" to bring Christ to them? Yes, teaching and training occurred and was encouraged. But, teaching and training were not the primary focus to make people right.
What I see, not only in Catholic circles, but Protestant as well, is "If we just teach people to do right and somehow force them to do right by rules and regulations then they will do what is right."
Jesus seemed to show that was not his life.
So where am I going? Beats me but it's fun hashing out my thoughts. 
I see Canon Laws, tons of rules, obligatory masses etc. and I wonder, Is that what Jesus intended? It seems to go back to the old Jewish Targums and Talmudic rules based upon ever expanding traditions that weighed people down so much they became slaves to their religion. Jesus condemned that and St. Paul really smacked down hard on it.
Please understand, I'm not trying to be argumentative. This is a major issue with me. Notice, I'm avoiding using proof text scriptures. That gets into your interpretations vs. my interpretations language I'm I'm trying to avoid that.
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CajunRick
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Posted: Mon Dec 24th, 2007 02:12 pm |
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If you want to understand how the Church became what it is today, you have to study the history of the Church, and that is something Protestants do not tend to do. Scripture did not appear magically on Martin Luther's desk. The Church, being in the world, evolved with it.
Church history is indeed something I have studied. I am going to give you a very brief summary of two thousand years of Church history that begins in the time of Christ.
Jesus told the apostles, and Peter in particular, to build a Church. He did not leave blueprints or detailed instructions of what he wanted his Church to be. What he did leave was the Holy Spirit to guide them to Truth.
The apostles were Jews, and the only model they had was the Jewish religion. Their faith was comprised of priests, rabbis, and a government (the Sanhedrin). There were a lot of laws and rituals, and officials within the religion wore distinctive garb. This became the model for the early Christian Church. As pagans became involved, they also brought their own symbolism. And so began the tradition of vestments and ritual.
When Christianity became the legal religion of the empire, the priest often was the only official representative of the government who actually cared about the people. He was often called upon to settle disputes, and became recognized as a magistrate within the empire. The Church was beyond technical control of the empire (although the emperor often appointed popes and bishops, and sometimes popes appointed emperors). The emperors built lavish churches, some of which stand today, in an effort to show the people how holy they were, or as expiation for their sinful lives. And popes and bishops, being human, were often complicit in their sinfulness. Priests earned no salary and began to charge for the administration of sacraments.
During the Dark Ages, Europe descended into anarchy. The Church provided the only structure of government for hundreds of years. Monks and nuns retreated into abbeys and convents, intent on preserving the culture by hand copying such important literature as sacred scripture. (There was no printing press; a book had to be copied by hand, and books were extremely valuable.) Priests were taken under the protection of Lords and Dukes within the walls of their cities, and nobility would rank their power by the number of priests they had saying mass for them. The people were not permitted to attend mass; they had to work in the fields seven days a week.
Over time, the Roman judicial garb (the chasuble) merged with the Jewish ritual garb (the prayer shawl or stole) into the vestments that remain today. Most of the vestments were abandoned after Vatican II, and so priests today seldom wear the amice, mantible, biretta, and other items I remember as a child.
Gradually, as nationalism arose in the west, the Church descended into chaos. Priests were living lavish lifestyles. The average person was not allowed to attend mass, and the anointing of the sick was so expensive it was known as the rich man's sacrament. Bishops were primarily princes of the royal families and had to pay exorbitant "benefices" to the pope for their appointment. In turn, the pope became the richest man in Europe. This was the situation in the Church at the time of Martin Luther. His original protests were legitimate and had he stayed faithful to the Church, he would be known today as one of the great reformers of the Church. Instead, he fell into heresy.
The Church's response was the Council of Trent, which not only established as doctrine the teachings Luther rejected and condemned his heresies, but also passed laws to curb the abuses. The Code of Canon Law was introduced not to impose restrictions on the people, but to curb the abuses of the pope, bishops, and priests. It became illegal to pay the pope for an appointment, or for a priest to charge more than a small fee to say mass (currently $3.00 in my diocese). It also established a system of seminaries so the priests would actually know what they're talking about in a homily, and forbade charging for the administration of sacraments.
One of the few laws that applies to the people is the requirement to attend mass on Sundays and Holydays. When that law was enacted, the nobility was forced to allow the peasants time out of the fields to go to church. They still considered themselves unworthy to receive communion, so a law was enacted requiring them to receive communion at least once a year.
The laws of Trent were essentially carved in stone for 400 years, until Vatican II called for a reexamination. Conditions had changed, and so the emphasis changed from following laws for their own sake to a more intelligent interpretation of the laws in light of Jesus' teachings. That reevaluation continues today, but that does not change the absolute necessity of the laws when they were enacted.
You can read the Code of Canon Law at the Vatican web site. You'll find that nearly every one of the laws deals with the heirarchy, and not with the people. For example, the Code of Canon Law specifies the procedure a bishop must follow to close a parish, and the rights and responsibilities of pastors.
Did Jesus envision all of this? Well, since he is God, he certainly knew what would happen. It might not have been what he wanted, but he knew what he was getting when he chose a Church built upon sinful humans. And I think when the pope stands up and condemns the evils of society, he is pleased.
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Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
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Dave Armstrong
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Posted: Mon Dec 24th, 2007 03:50 pm |
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Hi Rich,
Rick has answered well, as usual. I'll put in my $00.02 too, as this topic (like many in theology) can be approached from many different angles.
Did Jesus intend for the church to become a monolithic structure?
I think it is implicitly implied in the concept of oneness and unity, that is a common motif in Scripture, in terms of both doctrine and ecclesiology. It's implied in the primacy of Peter, and in apostolic succession and the notion of one "deposit of faith" handed down (and one Church council that was binding on all Christians), as in Acts 15). Any group entity cannot be unified unless it has a common organizational structure.
For example, the United States is one country. To be one it has to have one government: one judicial system, one congressional system, one exective system, etc. Each of those, in turn, has the highest office (Senate Majority leader, Speaker of the House, President, Supreme Court). Why should the Church be different? Of what possible use are several hundred competing theological systems and jurisdictions? Whenever they contradict (as I like to say), error is necessarily present somewhere, and error and falsehood are bad things, from the devil.
I can agree with apostolic succession, at least up to a point at this time.
Why, and on what basis, would it ever end, if it is a true principle and biblical and historical reality?
I can go along with the sacraments. But did Christ really have in mind a huge bureaucratic structure?
As I showed above, it is common sense, and it is abundantly indicated in the Bible. Many Protestants are so conditioned to think in terms of ecclesiological plurality, that the concept of a unified system is tough for them to resonate with.
I struggle with this. Everything about Jesus was simple and sacrificial.
I don't think so. His ethical teaching was complex and nuanced. St. Paul's theology is extremely complex and involved, and has occupied exegetes for centuries, with no end in sight of new insights even at this late date. The relationship of law and grace, for example, could easily occupy a great scholar for a lifetime, working through all that. Many aspects of theology are quite complicated, such as the nature of God, the Hypostatic Union, or the relationship of free will and predestination. So it is not this sheer simplicity, as you make out.
Servanthood was his emphasis and pattern of ministry.
No one is more of a servant than a pope. He labors day and night serving the flock.
However, what I see now in the Catholic church is a huge bureaucracy, more political in many ways, than pastoral. Did Christ really envision this? Having said that, the point I suppose is mute. What's there is there.
Things develop. This is true just as much in Protestantism. There are a host of things there that aren't in the Bible. You worship in a church building? That isn't in the Bible, for NT worshipers. I made a list somewhere of a bunch of these things, but I'm too lazy to look it up! But there are a lot of things that are extra-biblical traditions, but not necessarily in conflict with the Bible.
Secondly, Does the church put too much emphasis on laws and regulations and teaching?
I don't think so, because they are necessary to have an orderly presence and understanding. Things come up as the Church goes through history, and we learn from these and come up with renewed examinations, often leading to regulations, canon laws, etc.
This was an issue Jesus specifically dealt with. The sacrificial, suffering servanthood of Jesus went counter to the whole Judaic system.
I don't see how, as the "suffering servant" was a prominent motif in messianic passages in Isaiah, such as the famous chapter 53.
The whole idea of "teaching" and "making" people do what is right simply did not work. But his approach of simply serving and loving was how he taught. The emphasis was on "how can I give myself to my brother or sister" to bring Christ to them? Yes, teaching and training occurred and was encouraged. But, teaching and training were not the primary focus to make people right.
You can't separate correct doctrine from correct morals and ethics. Orthodoxy and orthopraxis. The Bible never does. But various Protestant strains of thought come up with this kind of "minimalism" in doctrine. It's just not biblical.
What I see, not only in Catholic circles, but Protestant as well, is "If we just teach people to do right and somehow force them to do right by rules and regulations then they will do what is right."
No. It always requires God's grace. That is why Catholics stress sacraments, because they convey this grace. But that doesn't mean that we don't also teach specifics as to right and wrong. People need those.
Jesus seemed to show that was not his life. So where am I going? Beats me but it's fun hashing out my thoughts.
Great! I love to do that, too!
I see Canon Laws, tons of rules, obligatory masses etc. and I wonder, Is that what Jesus intended? It seems to go back to the old Jewish Targums and Talmudic rules based upon ever expanding traditions that weighed people down so much they became slaves to their religion. Jesus condemned that and St. Paul really smacked down hard on it.
You are overlooking the massive Jewish elements in both Paul and Jesus, and in early Christianity, and the positive indications of tradition in Scripture. See my web pages:
Jews, Judaism, and the Old Testament
The Bible, Church, Tradition, & Canon
Please understand, I'm not trying to be argumentative. This is a major issue with me.
That's why we're here. We fully understand that. The thinking man and the conscientious man will attempt to work through the issues. You are to be highly commended.
Notice, I'm avoiding using proof text scriptures. That gets into your interpretations vs. my interpretations language I'm I'm trying to avoid that.
I understand and respect that motivation; however, the Scripture is an objective way that we can determine what Christianity teaches. It's like cutting off the limb you are sitting on. The truly profound subjectivism comes in systems where there is not even Scripture as a guide and standard, where pure individual opinion rules the day. That gets nowhere and leads to hundreds of competing systems. But the Bible is God's inspired revelation, and there to help us know what is truth.
I'm absolutely convinced that Catholicism is far and away the most true to the Bible in all its aspects of any form of Christianity. That has been the theme of my apologetics apostolate for 17 years now, since I became a Catholic.Last edited on Mon Dec 24th, 2007 03:55 pm by Dave Armstrong
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I'm happy to offer whatever theological & personal assistance I can. My blog, Biblical Evidence for Catholicism, contains 2000+ papers & web pages (absolutely free) & 16 apologetic books (for sale):
http://www.biblicalcatholic.com/
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rbo4u2
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Posted: Mon Dec 24th, 2007 07:17 pm |
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:? Thanks you guys. Both of you have given me a lot to chew on. I love history and you have given some interesting things chase down. So give me a chance to look them over again. As for now, I have a Christmas Eve service to go to and then it's Christmas day.
May you and all your families be blest out of your socks this Christmas.
Rich
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BodRod
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Posted: Tue Dec 25th, 2007 01:43 am |
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rbo4u2 wrote: And oh...by the way Dave et al. The picture is a ferret! Not a rabbit. (I think) Found it on somewhere else.
Well ..... this is the place to ferret out information. 
____________________
Gratias agamus Domino Deo nostro.
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rbo4u2
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Posted: Tue Dec 25th, 2007 10:53 am |
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Booo!!  Very Punny.
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rbo4u2
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Posted: Tue Dec 25th, 2007 11:19 am |
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Merry Christmas Rick and everyone else. It's early Christmas morning here. I got up at 5AM, my usual weekend wakeup time, and watched the midnight mass from the Viaticum. Ooops  I meant the Vatican. (Sorry, still waking up.)
Rick I'll respond to your post first and then address David's later. I admire your historical input. I've read some of what you said, but a lot of it was new to me. And I've read perhaps a hundred or more Catholic books on my journey. Some of your early insights were particularly interesting. Your review of the early vestment etc, traditions was interesting. I'd love to see your resources.
Sometimes I think more highly of myself than I ought to think when I think my historical knowledge is good. Then I read stuff like what you said and I wonder where I've been all my life. I've got the puzzle pieces and had some together, but as I can see, a lot of my pieces are still lying on the table waiting to be put in the right places. Plus, I think I'm missing a few pieces.
I, frankly, have nothing to contradict what you have said.
My only comment is that I believe one of the things Jesus wanted to do was to shatter all preconceived ideas of what worship and and faith really was. I believe his emphasis was on being along with doing. Nothing new there except, when the worship became a substitute for being and became an end in itself. Belief is one thing, faith is another. As Christ said, the devils believe. Which introduces another topic which I'll not expand on here and that is, what takes place at the mass that is transferable daily ethical living. Loving neighbor, caring, healing etc. It's often a problem we see in our churches too. Bill Bright of Campus Crusade used to call it "Transferable Concepts." How is our faith made practical?
But again, another topic and subject matter for later.
Thanks for the history lesson Rick.
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rbo4u2
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Posted: Tue Dec 25th, 2007 11:41 am |
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David, You should have been a lawyer. You certainly think like one. Unfortunately, I don't. I'm not nearly as precise as you. I'm just a simple minded person trying to apply my faith to the rocks and pebbles I walk on daily. I don't know if I could break down point by point every thing you said like you did to my writing. I think some of what I said was not clear, because some of your counters were things I agree with.
I don't dispute "development" of doctrine or tradition. It would be futile for a pipsqueak like me to expect to tell the Catholic church all their history is phony. I know better. I respect the Catholic church more than most Protestants. I can't tell you how many times I've bit my tongue when I've heard in a Sunday School class how a former Catholic left his church because of always feeling condemned and made to feel like a nobody. I know that all Catholics are not like that and I know how much the Catholic Church tries to minister faithfully to its members.
What first drew me to investigate the Catholic faith was the liturgy, tradition and history. I've felt with each generation, Protestants move farther and farther away from the tradition of the church. So I probe your church, I look for common ground, yes, look for weaknesses as well. But all with a spirit of honesty and an open mind and heart.
David, you are an awesome man and a bit intimidating. (heck, your picture is enough to scare the little ferret into wearing rose colored glasses.)
I confess I haven't read your books...shame on me. I just haven't gotten to them yet. I'm trying to unpack the catechism right now.
Thank you for your thoughts. I need to let them take root and germinate for a while.
God Bless...and Merry Christmas.
Now it's off to a Christmas brunch with some close friends of ours who just happen to be Catholic. (a bit liberal which is mostly the case here in the Bay Area. Gosh, I wish I could find some good conservative Catholics around here)
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tedjenczewski
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Posted: Tue Dec 25th, 2007 01:10 pm |
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| I recommend "A Biblical Defense of Catholicism" for a clear presentation of the scriptural and historical basis of Catholic teaching. It can be down loaded from Dave's website for only $5.00. Scott Hahn's book "Letter and Spirit" explains the New Testament liturgical practice of the church. When viewed from the perspective of Jewish worsip traditions and the heavenly worship described in John's Revelation, the vestments, candles, incense, processions, hymns, sacrifice, offering, and format of the liturgy make real sense.
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"...the church of the living God, the pillar and bulwark of the truth." 1Tim 3, 15
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BodRod
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Posted: Tue Dec 25th, 2007 01:25 pm |
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| Rich, sitting on the sidelines reading these postings,I am getting the feeling that you are comparing religions. In my experience, I found that procedure to be a significant inhibitor to my spiritual growth and understanding. My feeling was that comparing religions was something like comparing art. The "look-a-likes" and the "wanna-bes" may have some very nice qualities but they don't compare very well to the original. In my view, considering where Catholicism came from, the original goes back 10,000 or so years. In the new or Christian era, I think my art comparison concept fits rather well. The "split-offs" and the "late starters" do not compare to the original Christian religion. My Journey has been 7 years so far, and I tend to question EVERYTHING, but the concepts of the original Christian religion have been falling into place and I hope, will continue to do so for a LONG time to come. It is taking me awhile to study and understand 2000 years of world and religious history and how they are inter-twined.
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Gratias agamus Domino Deo nostro.
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BodRod
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Posted: Tue Dec 25th, 2007 01:29 pm |
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tedjenczewski wrote: When viewed from the perspective of Jewish worsip traditions and the heavenly worship described in John's Revelation, the vestments, candles, incense, processions, hymns, sacrifice, offering, and format of the liturgy make real sense.
GREAT point! I agree!!! That helped me a lot. In fact, I feel that it was a major contributor to opening the door of understanding for.
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Gratias agamus Domino Deo nostro.
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CajunRick
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Posted: Tue Dec 25th, 2007 01:48 pm |
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tedjenczewski wrote: When viewed from the perspective of Jewish worsip traditions and the heavenly worship described in John's Revelation, the vestments, candles, incense, processions, hymns, sacrifice, offering, and format of the liturgy make real sense.
Another excellent resource is Scott Hahn's The Lamb's Supper: The Mass as Heaven on Earth. From the description at CHResources:
The Lamb's Supper reveals a long-lost secret of the Church: the early Christians' key to understanding the mysteries of the Mass was the New Testament's Book of Revelations. With its bizarre imagery, its mystic visions of Heaven, and its end-of-time prophecies, Revelation mirrors the sacrifice and celebration of the Eucharist .Beautifully written in clear, direct language, this new book by bestselling Catholic author Scott Hahn will help readers see the Mass with new eyes, pray the liturgy with a renewed heart, and enter into the Mass more fully, enthusiastically, intelligently, and powerfully than ever before.
When we look at the mass, we can't look at its history as beginning with Christ. We must look to the sacrifices of Noah, Abraham, and Moses, and all the early leaders, prophets, and judges of the Jews. The priest, when he offers the Thanksgiving Sacrifice of the Mass (remember, "Eucharist" means "Thanksgiving") is repeating the sacrifice offered by Noah after the Ark came to land, but re-presenting ("presenting again") the perfect sacrificial Lamb of God who is at once Victim and Priest. The Levitical Priesthood exists today in the ordained ministers of the Catholic Church, with Jesus Christ as the once and eternal High Priest. And the vestments, ritual, incense, candles, etc., are at once the historical descendents of the Temple Sacrifice and the mirror of Heavenly worship before the Throne of the Most High God.
____________________
Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
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tedjenczewski
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Posted: Tue Dec 25th, 2007 03:02 pm |
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| Right on, and said much better than I am capable of. Praise God.
____________________
"...the church of the living God, the pillar and bulwark of the truth." 1Tim 3, 15
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rbo4u2
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Posted: Wed Dec 26th, 2007 12:06 am |
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Hello Cliff. Actually, you're not right on this one issue. If I were only interested in comparative religions, I'd be looking at other faiths as well. In my case, I'm a stubborn old 63 year old codger, born in Missouri and steeped in Evangelical traditions. My research into the Catholic faith is more out of wanting all that God has to offer. But I'm not going to jump any river, Tiber or otherwise, just because someone is totally convinced they are right. I've made too many snap decisions in my lifetime that have, at times, been based more on emotion than sound reasoning and study. I tend to be emotional and have made decisions based upon how I feel at the moment rather than waiting and scoping the whole thing out. This decision, if I make it, will be based upon sound reasoning, multitudes of study and challenging any idea that I don't understand until it becomes clear to me. Fanatics, I don't need.
Having said that, the more I study the Catholic faith, the more I find facts that I like and rings true. Putting on my swim fins to cross the Tiber will make a major impact on my life, friendships and future. It will not be easy. So, this is a serious study for me. Deadly Serious!! That last thing I want to do is dishonor my Lord and make a foolish decision. I have a wonderful walk with God now but am open to anything he leads me into. And that is the key. HE will lead me, and if it's to Mary, the Roman Catholic Church and all the rest, well...so be it and the saints be praised.
One other thing...sometimes I hit sensory overload, so to speak, and I'll shut up for a period of time. It's not that I'm wavering. It's just I can't handle all I've studied and need for it to simmer on the back burner.
I've come a long way, but I'm not there yet.
Rich
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rbo4u2
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Posted: Wed Dec 26th, 2007 12:12 am |
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Thanks Ted, I was planning to pursue some of David's books anyway. His website has a ton of material. I've also been thinking about Scott Hahn's book, Letter and Spirt. I've read his book on The Lamb's Supper, but I think I read it too fast and need to reread it again. Every time I open it, something else pops out at me. Right now I think I need to recoup from Christmas spending before I continue building up my library.
Thanks for your suggestions...all of you.
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rbo4u2
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Posted: Wed Dec 26th, 2007 12:13 pm |
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I want to add something further to what I've said. This morning in my Magnificat prayer book, I read a particularly good message by Monsignor Lorenzo Albercete. It spoke particularly to me since I have a often get off message or a bit out of focus. He emphasized that first of all, Jesus is the Truth who was born as a man. But even before that he is the Way. He then said something that hit home to me. I've known it, but I guess I need the reminder. "We do not seek solutions to the problems of life derived from religious sentiments, spiritual approaches, or philosopical convictions. We do not have answers to questions." And then he said something very profound. "We seek not an answer but a Presence, the human presence that is the way to the "Answer," to the truth. He then goes on to say the Church is not "our way" of finding answers but the method through which the Truth becomes incarnate to us.
That was particularly helpful to me and hope a blessing to you all. So my search is not so much intellectual as more of a desire to be united with the Person.
So now, change of subject...(must be my feminine side of me...Hee Hee
This is the week we look back at major events of the year...a boring exercise as far as I'm concerned. Having said that, I find it interesting to see all the wonderful books I've read. I won't list a top ten of my favorites, but will name one that affected me more than any other...outside of the Bible of course. And that is the book, The God Who Loves You by Peter Kreeft. It is a book that challenged me more than any other. It is one I will re-read often because it really brings the focus on God's love like no other.
If you haven't read it, it is well worth your time. Peter Kreeft has become one of my favorite authors.
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Dave Armstrong
Network Apologist
| Joined: | Fri Nov 2nd, 2007 |
| Location: | Melvindale, Michigan USA |
| Posts: | 1845 |
| First Name: | Dave | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Evangelical (1977): Diverse Protestant Influences / Catholic in 1990 |
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Posted: Wed Dec 26th, 2007 02:37 pm |
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Hi Rich,
If you would like up to three of my e-books for free, just drop me a PM, let me know whether you prefer Word or PDF, give me an e-mail address, and they are yours as a Christmas gift.
In Him,
Dave
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I'm happy to offer whatever theological & personal assistance I can. My blog, Biblical Evidence for Catholicism, contains 2000+ papers & web pages (absolutely free) & 16 apologetic books (for sale):
http://www.biblicalcatholic.com/
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wisdomseeker
Member
| Joined: | Thu Dec 13th, 2007 |
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| Posts: | 31 |
| First Name: | janete | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | always catholics, although have participate in other churches |
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Posted: Mon Dec 31st, 2007 04:57 pm |
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rbo4u2 wrote: Hello Cliff. Actually, you're not right on this one issue. If I were only interested in comparative religions, I'd be looking at other faiths as well. In my case, I'm a stubborn old 63 year old codger, born in Missouri and steeped in Evangelical traditions. My research into the Catholic faith is more out of wanting all that God has to offer. But I'm not going to jump any river, Tiber or otherwise, just because someone is totally convinced they are right. I've made too many snap decisions in my lifetime that have, at times, been based more on emotion than sound reasoning and study. I tend to be emotional and have made decisions based upon how I feel at the moment rather than waiting and scoping the whole thing out. This decision, if I make it, will be based upon sound reasoning, multitudes of study and challenging any idea that I don't understand until it becomes clear to me. Fanatics, I don't need.
Having said that, the more I study the Catholic faith, the more I find facts that I like and rings true. Putting on my swim fins to cross the Tiber will make a major impact on my life, friendships and future. It will not be easy. So, this is a serious study for me. Deadly Serious!! That last thing I want to do is dishonor my Lord and make a foolish decision. I have a wonderful walk with God now but am open to anything he leads me into. And that is the key. HE will lead me, and if it's to Mary, the Roman Catholic Church and all the rest, well...so be it and the saints be praised.
One other thing...sometimes I hit sensory overload, so to speak, and I'll shut up for a period of time. It's not that I'm wavering. It's just I can't handle all I've studied and need for it to simmer on the back burner.
I've come a long way, but I'm not there yet.
Rich
hello Rbo!
if you have not yet read the newman apologetics by Scott Hahn, the four marks of the church, this is your chance. i think this site should clear many things for you.
know the Truth and Truth will set you free.
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Howard the Pilgrim
Member
| Joined: | Sun Dec 16th, 2007 |
| Location: | Lamar, Colorado USA |
| Posts: | 70 |
| First Name: | Howard | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | United Presbyterian, non-denom, American Baptist, non-denom, Conservative Baptist, United Methodist ... |
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Posted: Tue Jul 15th, 2008 11:28 am |
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"So my search is not so much intellectual as more of a desire to be united with the Person." Amen, Rich. It is this desire that has brought me to the banks of the Tiber. The merely intellectual does not provide the nourishment that I need nor does it satisfy the longings of my soul. The Catholic Church has provided a pathway up the mountain of God and into His presence that I have not found anywhere else. Many other paths looked promising at the beginning but led me eventually to a box canyon with sheer walls and no way up. I think I am actually swimming around in the middle of the Tiber.
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Intercessor
Member
| Joined: | Tue Sep 25th, 2007 |
| Location: | Southcentral, Kentucky USA |
| Posts: | 1311 |
| First Name: | Becky | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Southern Baptist, Catholic |
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Posted: Tue Jul 15th, 2008 12:02 pm |
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Howard the Pilgrim wrote:
The Catholic Church has provided a pathway up the mountain of God and into His presence that I have not found anywhere else. Many other paths looked promising at the beginning but led me eventually to a box canyon with sheer walls and no way up. I think I am actually swimming around in the middle of the Tiber.
And doing quite well at it, I'd say. 
We wait to welcome you on this side, Howard. 
Godspeed,
Becky
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"He who will persevere unto the end is not he who will never fall, but he who after every fall will humble himself and rise again, relying on the infinite strength of God." Divine Intimacy, p. 885 Father Gabriel, O.C.D.
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BodRod
Member
| Joined: | Mon Oct 2nd, 2006 |
| Location: | Apple Valley, California USA |
| Posts: | 824 |
| First Name: | Cliff | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Raised an SDA, then Generic Christian, finally at home with ... |
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Posted: Tue Jul 15th, 2008 01:52 pm |
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rbo4u2 wrote: Hello Cliff. Actually, you're not right on this one issue. WOW!!! That is a first for me!!! In my case, I'm a stubborn old 63 year old codger.......
63 you say. Just a young buck. Nice to meet you young man!!!
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Gratias agamus Domino Deo nostro.
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Free
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| Joined: | Wed Nov 28th, 2007 |
| Location: | Michigan USA |
| Posts: | 260 |
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