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NotCatholic
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Posted: Tue Dec 4th, 2007 01:27 am |
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Well this will be my last post on the Coming home Network Forums, I'm very sure now that Catholicism is not for me and that their is no need to study it any longer. Its been alot of fun here and thank you everyone. I'm going to spend most of my time now on Orthodox Forums because I'm now studying the Orthodox Faith. I'm still going to pop into the forums sometimes I'm just not going to post anymore. 
God bless everyone
Last edited on Tue Dec 4th, 2007 01:37 am by NotCatholic
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The attitude that nature is chaotic and that the artist puts order into it is a very absurd point of view, I think. All that we can hope for is to put some order into ourselves-Willem De Kooning
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David W. Emery
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Posted: Tue Dec 4th, 2007 01:45 am |
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We’ll miss you, NotCatholic. If you should at any time decide to return, it will be to our open arms.
David
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Intercessor
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Posted: Tue Dec 4th, 2007 01:58 am |
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NotCatholic, may the Holy Spirit lead you to the Truth you seek.
Grace and peace,
Becky
____________________
"The perfection of a soul may be measured by the degree to which it does the will of God, and finds its happiness in doing it.... O my God,...the only thing necessary is Your holy will," Divine Intimacy, pp. 15-16 Father Gabriel, O.C.D.
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Free
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Posted: Tue Dec 4th, 2007 07:22 am |
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What was the stumbling block for you? If you care to share...
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NotCatholic
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Posted: Tue Dec 4th, 2007 07:47 am |
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Because the Catholic Church does seem to teach a kind of universalism.
http://chnetwork.org/forums/forum15/2632.html
Here is what rick said that got me the the post getting to heaven
This Got me and was the thing mad my mind up about the Catholic Church for sure. Key words in blue. Sorry Rick not trying to pick on you.
Do all roads lead to salvation? Yes, but....
Some roads are superhighways that take us directly to our destination.
Some are country roads with potholes and turnoffs and distractions at every turn.
Some are farm to market roads that meander alongide rivers and through fields with no markings at all.
And some may even choose to set out through the jungle with nothing more than a machete.
We see the Catholic Church as the superhighway. The Church gives us a clear direction and if we but follow the path she lays out for us, we can't go wrong.
Other Christian faiths represent the country roads. They're in pretty good shape, but still are poorly marked with lots of turnoffs.
The Jewish and Muslim faiths also represent clear passages to salvation, but with successively more potholes and opportunities for failure. Muslims in particular have proven succeptible to a dangerous form of fundamentalism.
Others who have faith are on the farm to market roads with lots of turns and few markings, while those with no faith are in the jungle on their own with nothing more than machete. Unfortunately, some who claim to be Christian have drifted so far from the gospel message that they also find themselves alone in the jungle. Their faith has become a hindrance rather than a help.
So yes, salvation is available to all, but the path is harder the farther one drifts away from Jesus and his Church.
I will never believe this.
God bless!
____________________
The attitude that nature is chaotic and that the artist puts order into it is a very absurd point of view, I think. All that we can hope for is to put some order into ourselves-Willem De Kooning
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David W. Emery
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Posted: Tue Dec 4th, 2007 09:20 am |
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Ah, NotCatholic! You saw all the “yeses” but ignored the “buts.” God’s scripture tells us repeatedly that salvation is open to all (Titus 2:11), that Christ died for all (1 Corinthians 5:14–15), that “God our Savior… desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth” (1 Timothy 3:3b–4). Yet the word of the Lord goes on: “For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus” (v. 5). This is exactly what Rick and everybody else is saying. How is it so difficult to accept if it is right there in the bible?
David
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Annie
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Posted: Tue Dec 4th, 2007 10:43 am |
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| Godspeed, may the wind be always at your back. Come back whenever you want to, you will always be welcome.
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Annie
Ora et labora
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NotCatholic
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Posted: Tue Dec 4th, 2007 11:52 pm |
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Ah, NotCatholic! You saw all the “yeses” but ignored the “buts.” God’s scripture tells us repeatedly that salvation is open to all (Titus 2:11), that Christ died for all (1 Corinthians 5:14–15), that “God our Savior… desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth” (1 Timothy 3:3b–4). Yet the word of the Lord goes on: “For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus” (v. 5). This is exactly what Rick and everybody else is saying. How is it so difficult to accept if it is right there in the bible?
David
David what you said does not hold up all the Bible most be looked at not one verse.
11For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
No where does this say that all Religions are true it says Salvation has appeared to all men. the Key word being appeared this is talking about Jesus Christ thats why the next verse says Teaching. Christianity is the only true Religion.
12Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;
13Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;
The rest of the Verses you put is just more of the same you Twisting Gods word out of Context to fit your doctrine that all Religions can Save you. My Question to you is why even try to convert people to Christianity if all Religions can bring Salvation. This will be my last post.
Last edited on Wed Dec 5th, 2007 12:05 am by NotCatholic
____________________
The attitude that nature is chaotic and that the artist puts order into it is a very absurd point of view, I think. All that we can hope for is to put some order into ourselves-Willem De Kooning
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CajunRick
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Posted: Wed Dec 5th, 2007 01:24 am |
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NotCatholic wrote: 11For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
No where does this say that all Religions are true it says Salvation has appeared to all men. the Key word being appeared this is talking about Jesus Christ thats why the next verse says Teaching. Christianity is the only true Religion.
No one here disagrees. We just believe (and our Church teaches) that those who have never been taught and accepted the truth of Christ's Church will not be held responsible for that which they cannot know.
Do you believe that those who have never heard of Jesus Christ will be condemned? If so, where did Jesus ever teach that? Does that apply to unborn babies killed in the horror of abortion? If not, why not? If only those who profess Jesus Christ as Savior can be saved, then certainly the unborn who have never known Christ must be doomed. Is that what you believe?
My Church teaches that the Church can offer salvation only through baptism, but God is not limited by God's sacraments and is free to offer salvation by other means. And since we believe that God desires all humans to share eternity with God, we believe that God will give all people an opportunity for salvation.
All faiths contain certain essential truths which the Catholic Church calls natural law. We believe that salvation is available to those who (through no fault of their own) do not know Jesus is our Savior but who follow the natural law. It is not their faith that saves them, except in how it may help them to follow the natural law written by God on their hearts. That's why I said earlier that in some cases they may be saved not because of their faith but in spite of it. Jesus said "whatever you do to the least of these, my people, you do to me". Even those who have never heard the holy name of Jesus can feed the hungry, clothe the naked, visit the imprisoned and the sick, and care for the elderly. At the final judgment Jesus will tell them, "when I was hungry you fed me, when I was naked you clothed me. Now enter into my kingdom". Again, it will not be because they were Muslim or Buddhist or pagan, but because they cared for the least of God's people.
On the other hand, those who have had the opportunity to accept Jesus Christ as their Savior and have rejected him with full knowledge cannot be saved, regardless of their faith. There will be many who attend church regularly but are greedy and selfish, who will find the gates to heaven locked, while many who have never heard the name of Jesus but have provided for the least of God's people will find them wide open.
____________________
Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
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brian
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Posted: Wed Dec 5th, 2007 03:26 am |
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Dear Not Catholic, I hope even if you do not post anymore that you will at least read this post because I did not get much of a chance to talk with you and I have some thoughs ont this matter and can relate to where you are coming from.
It may help you to know that I also have struggled with this and at times I get nervous that we go too far. Because my more evangelical background was very strict in interpreting Jesus as the only path to salvation. I get nervous that too many Catholics will misunderstand these teachings and eventually we will become relativistic and claim that all religions are truth and it will be some sort of one word religion that will bring about the end times. I am Catohlic and I still live with some fear of this, though I know it is impossible, but part of me wonders, what if the wrong people got in power. But then I remember Jesus told us that He would always bewith us, always lead us into truth and that the gates of hell would never prevail against us.
But the thing is that there is a difference between what we say for the purpose of ecumenical dialogue and trying to make sure we do not judge or condemn people than what is what we consider the normal way to get to heaven.
Meaning, as Rick said, there has to be some reason for those who no fault of their own can not know the gospel but live as if they did, there has to be a way for God to make salvation open to them. It is still through Christ. Say you lived in a place where you never saw the son. It was only the moon. The moon only reflects light from the sun. So though you mistakenly thank the moon for the light it gives you, it is really the sun that your thans is ascribed to, and God would not punish you for having never known that the sun is there.
Nobody is saying that all religions produce salvation, so much as following the truth found in them is what shows that they are really hungry for the truth that Jesus brings. I do not believe that if any hindus are saved they are saved because hinduism is true or saved them. Rather I believe that if they are saved it was becasue they followed God as well as they were able.
Keep in mind, we are not saying how many or how few will be saved this way. This includes those of us who are Catholic. We simply can not judge. You are free to believe that many will be saved, or that it will be the rare excpetion. Most of us thinking of God's great mercy like to try to think of ways that it will be many who will be saved, because we know that God will go to such great lengths to save them. Yet it is likely many will still reject the grace shown to them. Just because we are saying that there may be a way for others to be saved, does not mean we think it will be one out of 10 or ten out of ten. We do not know. And it does not mean we think that the religions are equally true or able to bring salvation apart from Jesus.
Salvation is only available through Jesus Christ and the Catholic Church. But we need to be careful not to assume how others do or do not fit into this equation. Fact is, that the only sure path we have to salvation is through Baptism and living in and maintaining a state of grace through the help of the sacramental life of the church. We do not know how this works with those who do not have or fully know about this choice. We have to assume God has a way to save them if it be His will, and as the verses David showed you, it just may be in many cases.
I know you mentioned pursuing Orthodoxy. They do not have as much teaching on this or as formally as we do, but they believe similarly. Often they say word it along the lines of 'we know where the Holy Spirit is, but we do not know where it is not.' It is everywhere. It is wind. Breath. It goes wherever it wills. We can not say for sure how it is moving or not outside the places where we know it definitely is working, and the places we are called to obey its leadings, whih is in the bosom of the Church.
I do think that we sometimes throw this teaching around too easily without enough qualifications being understood, and I see some danger in that because maybe some people will lose their zeal for evangelism. But like I said, the only way I know for sure someone is on the path to salvation is when I see them embrace the Catholic faith. Therefore, even though I have hope that those ignorant of the need to join the church MAY atain eternal salvation, I must do all I can through prayer or mercy or defending the faith with words to help them enter the ark that we are saved through.
I think you will find that reading or listnieng to Pope Benedict that he is a very sound theologioan Christian apologist and philosopher who fights relativism believes in absolute truth, and strongly believes that Jesus is Lord.
This Vatican document helped me a lot with this topic. I hope you will take the time to read it.
Click Here
Please give a few more posts if you can. Just because you are not ready to believe what we believe and may never be does not mean that you may not learn other important concepts from us that you will be able to integrate on your journey. If not, all the best to you.
Brian
Edited to shorten link
Last edited on Wed Dec 5th, 2007 08:26 am by
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NotCatholic
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Posted: Thu Dec 6th, 2007 09:34 am |
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Please give a few more posts if you can. Just because you are not ready to believe what we believe and may never be does not mean that you may not learn other important concepts from us that you will be able to integrate on your journey. If not, all the best to you
I will give two or three more but thats it then I will be on my way I don't like beating dead horses.
No one here disagrees. We just believe (and our Church teaches) that those who have never been taught and accepted the truth of Christ's Church will not be held responsible for that which they cannot know.
Do you believe that those who have never heard of Jesus Christ will be condemned? If so, where did Jesus ever teach that? Does that apply to unborn babies killed in the horror of abortion? If not, why not? If only those who profess Jesus Christ as Savior can be saved, then certainly the unborn who have never known Christ must be doomed. Is that what you believe?
Rick I have told you lots of times that I agree with this if a man from the amazon never hears the the name of Christ or reads the Bible then no he will not be held responsible as I said before in my posts. What I'm saying is that this amazon man's Pagan Religion can not now or ever give him Salvation as Christianity is the Only Religion that can bring Salvation the only way the man from the Amazon can get Salvation is from the mercy,grace, and love of the only true God Jesus Christ not his false religion and his false gods.
It may help you to know that I also have struggled with this and at times I get nervous that we go too far. Because my more evangelical background was very strict in interpreting Jesus as the only path to salvation. I get nervous that too many Catholics will misunderstand these teachings and eventually we will become relativistic and claim that all religions are truth and it will be some sort of one word religion that will bring about the end times
Brian you have a right to worry because its happening look what tames said a priest said to him. key words in blue Brian. This is pure falsehood God does not call people to False Religions but Satan does.
To help you understand where I am coming from, I have called priests, Catholic Apologists, et.... asking about the church. A few days ago, I had a priest tell my point blank that all roads lead to heaven. He said that I needed to be the best Catholix, Jew, Muslim, HIndu that God was calling me to
I am Catohlic and I still live with some fear of this, though I know it is impossible, but part of me wonders, what if the wrong people got in power. But then I remember Jesus told us that He would always bewith us, always lead us into truth and that the gates of hell would never prevail against us.
Brian how to you know the Bible verse about the gates of hell will not prevail againist the true Church is not talking about the Orthodox Church just because Catholics say its talking about them does not make it true.
God Bless!
____________________
The attitude that nature is chaotic and that the artist puts order into it is a very absurd point of view, I think. All that we can hope for is to put some order into ourselves-Willem De Kooning
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Annie
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Posted: Thu Dec 6th, 2007 12:01 pm |
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NotCatholic wrote: Brian how to you know the Bible verse about the gates of hell will not prevail against the true Church is not talking about the Orthodox Church just because Catholics say it's talking about them does not make it true.
It would seem to include the Orthodox Churches because they are separated from the Catholic Church temporarily, it seems.
____________________
Annie
Ora et labora
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brian
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Posted: Thu Dec 6th, 2007 03:34 pm |
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Thanks for the reply. I also agree that the priest's comments seemed not the best choice without understanding the context or qualification.
I would that anyone accept the true gospel, but if they were not, then I would still hope they live the best life they can, and that God may have mercy on them.
However, the comment of any individual or priest is not going to nullify the official teaching we have in place that I think you can agree with and the Orthodox probably would come close to as well. I already mentioned to you that they have similar belief to us in this, yet you seem to trust them more.
I tried to address the concern that other religions can bring salvation, and the fact is that while we believe they 'may' be saved, it is only through the truth of the gospel that this happens, and not through the saving power of any other god or religion. This is the Catholic position as far as I know. So really we are in more agreement than you realize. It is only Christ who saves from the church.
Now if you were to go any other direction I think Orthodox is a good choice, but I can not speak as to how Jesus' promise does or deos not apply to them. What I do know is that though all the apostles were collectively given a unique authority, the most unique and significant authority was given to Peter. The Rock. So while the passage may be referring to the Orthodox as well since they qualify as true churches, I think it may even moreso apply to us, because we live in unity and under the authority of the chair of Peter. The Orthodox would agree with much of this and be it God's will we will all reach reconciliation someday. I also felt for a long time a pull toward Orthodoxy over Catholic, but the papacy was a key issue that I think puled me backthis way.
Also try reading what the early Church fathers said about maintaining unity with he chair of Peter. So to answer your question as to how I know Jesus is talking about the Catohlic Church (and I am not sure if it discludes the Orthodox) is one word: Peter.
Please look at the link providing many church fathers showing that unity to and the primacy of Rome is a 'key' part of being in the church. http://www.catholic.com/library/Authority_of_the_Pope_Part_1.asp
Try the links on this page for more theology on the papacy. http://socrates58.blogspot.com/2006/11/papacy-index-page.html
and this link deal with the questions regarding the differences between us and the Orthodox. http://socrates58.blogspot.com/2006/11/orthodoxy-eastern-index-page.html
Thanks again for responding. Glad to get the chance to dialogue.
Brian
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David W. Emery
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Posted: Thu Dec 6th, 2007 03:57 pm |
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NotCatholic wrote:If a man from the amazon never hears the the name of Christ or reads the Bible then no he will not be held responsible as I said before in my posts. What I'm saying is that this amazon man's Pagan Religion can not now or ever give him Salvation as Christianity is the Only Religion that can bring Salvation the only way the man from the Amazon can get Salvation is from the mercy, grace, and love of the only true God Jesus Christ not his false religion and his false gods.
Then we are agreed, because this is exactly the Catholic position. Others here have stated the same, and yet you are not happy. What are you opposed to?
David
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Dave Armstrong
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Posted: Thu Dec 6th, 2007 05:05 pm |
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If you decide to leave (or if you stay!), I wish you the best and all God's blessings. But please don't leave with a miscomprehension of what the Catholic Church teaches. You have to oppose views according to what they really are, not a misunderstanding. That helps you to decide which way to go. Truth has its own apparent goodness and beauty. The Catholic Church absolutely does not teach universalism. We hold that all who are saved are saved by virtue of Jesus Christ and His work on the cross, and through the Catholic Church. Others have explained this well; I need not jump in too.
If you'd like a free copy of my book on Orthodoxy and Catholicism in Word of PDF format, just drop me a PM and give me an e-mail address to send it to and its yours.
Last edited on Thu Dec 6th, 2007 05:06 pm by Dave Armstrong
____________________
I'm happy to offer whatever theological & personal assistance I can. My blog, Biblical Evidence for Catholicism, contains 2000+ papers & web pages (absolutely free) & 16 apologetic books (for sale):
http://www.biblicalcatholic.com/
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NotCatholic
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Posted: Fri Dec 7th, 2007 02:00 am |
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Then we are agreed, because this is exactly the Catholic position. Others here have stated the same, and yet you are not happy. What are you opposed to?
I don't think we believe the same thing from my understanding of the Catholic teaching.
My View.
All religions are 100% false but Christianity.
All Gods other other then Jesus Christ are false.
Salvation can only come from the true religion of God Christianity.
People who knows nothing about Christianity can be saved by the grace of God not by their false Religion.
The Catholic View as I understand it is.
All Religions have some truth to them.
All faiths contain certain essential truths which the Catholic Church calls natural law
Muslims and Christians worship the same God.
841 The Church's relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day."
People who knows nothing about Christianity can be saved by following the truth in their religion (Natural law)
I'm not trying to tell what they believe as I said what I'm doing is telling you my understanding of what you have said.
However, the comment of any individual or priest is not going to nullify the official teaching we have in place that I think you can agree with and the Orthodox probably would come close to as well. I already mentioned to you that they have similar belief to us in this, yet you seem to trust them more.
If they have similar views ok I'm not saying you are making this up but I want to hear it from the followers of the Orthodox Church, And if what you say is true then I will reject the Orthodox Church as well.
Thanks again for responding. Glad to get the chance to dialogue.
Brian.
Thanks Brian its nice talking to you as well.
If you decide to leave (or if you stay!), I wish you the best and all God's blessings. But please don't leave with a miscomprehension of what the Catholic Church teaches. You have to oppose views according to what they really are, not a misunderstanding. That helps you to decide which way to go. Truth has its own apparent goodness and beauty. The Catholic Church absolutely does not teach universalism. We hold that all who are saved are saved by virtue of Jesus Christ and His work on the cross, and through the Catholic Church. Others have explained this well; I need not jump in too.
I'm going to leave soon I'm 100% sure of this Dave
God bless
____________________
The attitude that nature is chaotic and that the artist puts order into it is a very absurd point of view, I think. All that we can hope for is to put some order into ourselves-Willem De Kooning
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DrDave
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Posted: Fri Dec 7th, 2007 02:29 am |
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NotCatholic wrote: All religions are 100% false but Christianity.
So when a Muslim says "There is one God" is he wrong? or does he only become wrong when he adds "... Allah, and Mohammed is His prophet"?
Regards Dave
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NotCatholic
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Posted: Fri Dec 7th, 2007 04:52 am |
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| Their is no muslim God Last edited on Fri Dec 7th, 2007 04:54 am by NotCatholic
____________________
The attitude that nature is chaotic and that the artist puts order into it is a very absurd point of view, I think. All that we can hope for is to put some order into ourselves-Willem De Kooning
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brian
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Posted: Fri Dec 7th, 2007 04:55 am |
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All Gods other other then Jesus Christ are false.
We agree.
Salvation can only come from the true religion of God Christianity.
We also agree.
People who knows nothing about Christianity can be saved by the grace of God not by their false Religion.
Again we are agreed.
All religions are 100% false but Christianity.
This is the only thing I see that we are not in agreement on. If they were 100% false, that would make our religion false on the points that we agree with them on. If a religion teaches one to worship God with his whole heart, or to be honest, or against immodesty and dishonesty then they agree with us. Making us both right on those points. But if they were 100% false than we would have to change any points we agreed with them on and find the view that was 100% true.
What is false about these religions, is that they do not offer the most full and true revelation of who God is and how we can come to a saving relationship with Him. They can not bring salvation, but they can help people come closer to understanding some truths of God hopefully opening them up to receiving Jesus Christ. That is, granted, the most important thing of all, but it does not mean there are not truths that most religions share and that living by these truths will hep them be a better person than living a completely immoral life will.
I still think you are letting the language of the catechism, which is trying to be as diplomatic as possible and word things in a way that all will feel loved while still pronouncing the fullness of truth found in the Catholic faith, confuse you as to what we really believe. It seems that there are at least four people on this forum telling you that we are essentially in agrement, but I think you are having a hard time getting past the statements that throuble you. I have been there.
And perhaps you do need to get away for a while and seek out other thought. I just hope you will keep the door open a tiny bit when and if the Holy Spirit wants you to consider the claims of the Catholic faith. I know you are frustrated with how we and the Orthodox believe on this point but I think it is worth it to you to sort it out because I do not think you have many other places to look in your quest for a church that is one, holy, Catholic, and apostolic. Either the truth is somehow scattered about in a blend of all denominations and Christianity, or it has been with us since Pentecost. Which churches can really claim they have maintained unity and continuity in belief since that glorious day.
It can seem difficult to accept certain theological points, but sometimes it is we that have to adjust when we do not seem to understand, lest we all be our own gods.
Brian
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DrDave
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Posted: Fri Dec 7th, 2007 05:18 am |
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NotCatholic wrote: Their is no muslim God
But this does not answer my question.
When a Muslim says "There is one God" is he wrong or is he right?
If the Musilim claims to worship the God of Abraham, and you say "There is no muslim God" are you saying that the God you worship is not the God of Abraham?
Is there one God?
Regards Dave
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NotCatholic
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Posted: Fri Dec 7th, 2007 06:02 am |
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But this does not answer my question.
When a Muslim says "There is one God" is he wrong or is he right?
If the Musilim claims to worship the God of Abraham, and you say "There is no muslim God" are you saying that the God you worship is not the God of Abraham?
Is there one God?
Regards Dave
Their is one God yes but who cares what a Muslim claims just because they say they worship the God of Araham does not make it true they also believe Muhammad was a Prophet Dave are you going to start to believe in Muhammad just because the muslim claim he's a true prophet?
God Bless
____________________
The attitude that nature is chaotic and that the artist puts order into it is a very absurd point of view, I think. All that we can hope for is to put some order into ourselves-Willem De Kooning
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DrDave
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Posted: Fri Dec 7th, 2007 08:07 am |
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NotCatholic wrote: Their is one God yes but who cares what a Muslim claims just because they say they worship the God of Araham does not make it true they also believe Muhammad was a Prophet Dave are you going to start to believe in Muhammad just because the Muslim claim he's a true prophet?
My point NC is that if Islam teaches that "There is one God" and if it is true that "There is one God", then in this one instance the teachings of Islam is true
If Islam further claim that "This one God is the God of Abraham" and if it is true that "This one God is the God of Abraham" then we have another instance where the teachings of Islam are true.
If Islam deny that "The God of Abraham is from all eternity is a trinity of persons", and yet it is indeed true then we have found a teaching of Islam that is false. So far we're running at 66% True not the 100% False that you claimed earlier.
I don't claim that all or even most of what Islam teaches is true but I'm a big enough man (in more ways that one) to admit that they've got some things right. This is what the Church teaches. If you look at most if not all world religions, and start | | |
