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Angie_Rivas1
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| First Name: | Angie | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Cradle Catholic |
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Posted: Sun May 13th, 2007 05:58 pm |
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I am very troubled by what one of my parish priest said this morning during the homily. He's an Irish priest who's been a priest for forty years. He started by speaking about Limbo and how the Church makes mistakes. He said that the Church and the Holy Spirit do not mean the same thing. The priest even mentioned that he gives the church some years before It changes Its belief on the Purgatory (because it is not in the bible as Limbo was not there, either). He even critized the Church stand on celibacy for priests and how he believes it will change in the future due to the lack of ordained priests. Then he talked about what the church has done to marriage and how it was required to marry by a priest only until the early 20th century in USA. As long as people are committed and intend to love and be faifthful to each other, it should be fine.
Personally, I felt attacked- as you all know I barely came back or starting practicing a little over a year ago and I am learning to be obedient to Its teachings. Towards, the end he tried to clarify that theology and doctrines were not the same, but I think the damage was already done. Some people were letting out gasps and rolling their eyes. When it was time to receive the Eucharist, he invited everyone to partake it because he said that all sins are forgiven during the celebration of the mass unless someone in the parish has killed another person.
I was very dissapointed when I came out of mass and the worse is that my younger, scientist sister was sitting next to me. She came home for Mother's Day. She agrees that Father G. needs to tell the truth the way it is. Then when I told her that a lot of people could indeed get confused by his teaching, she told me to stop being an extremist, that one day I will have children and they might not like me because I tend to be way too close-minded :X
Angie
____________________
"Be not afraid" JPII
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CajunRick
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Posted: Sun May 13th, 2007 06:30 pm |
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Angie_Rivas1 wrote: I am very troubled by what one of my parish priest said this morning during the homily. He's an Irish priest who's been a priest for forty years. He started by speaking about Limbo and how the Church makes mistakes. He said that the Church and the Holy Spirit do not mean the same thing. The priest even mentioned that he gives the church some years before It changes Its belief on the Purgatory (because it is not in the bible as Limbo was not there, either).
The Church is certainly not perfect and does make mistakes, but neither Limbo nor Purgatory represent mistakes. Purgatory is a doctrine of the Church; if the Church should "change its beliefs" on Purgatory, it will mean that the Church is not the one true church founded by Jesus Christ. Obviously that would be a very big deal. If this is actually what your priest said and meant, he should be challenged on it.
Limbo was and is a theological concept, as we have covered elsewhere. It is not and never was doctrine. However, Catholics are still free to believe that Limbo exists. The Church has not admitted a mistake; it has simply stressed a different theological concept as another possibility.
He even critized the Church stand on celibacy for priests and how he believes it will change in the future due to the lack of ordained priests.
As we have also discussed, celibacy is a discipline or rule of the Church that is not universally applied, as Fr. Gnyssa can attest. It indeed could be changed at any time. As I have stated, I believe there is room in the Church for a married clergy, as is currently the practice under the Pastoral Provision and in most of the Eastern Catholic and Orthodox Churches.
Then he talked about what the church has done to marriage and how it was required to marry by a priest only until the early 20th century in USA. As long as people are committed and intend to love and be faifthful to each other, it should be fine.
I have no idea what this means. Catholics must be married in the presence of an official witness of the Church (normally a priest or deacon), but there is room for exceptions in exceptional circumstances. Those in unrecognized marriages, or serial polygamists, must take steps to rectify and correct their situations.
Personally, I felt attacked- as you all know I barely came back or starting practicing a little over a year ago and I am learning to be obedient to Its teachings.
It does not sound like this priest was accurately reflecting the teachings of the Church, especially in regard to Purgatory and marriage, and is somewhat confused about what the Church actually teaches on Limbo.
Towards, the end he tried to clarify that theology and doctrines were not the same, but I think the damage was already done. Some people were letting out gasps and rolling their eyes. When it was time to receive the Eucharist, he invited everyone to partake it because he said that all sins are forgiven during the celebration of the mass unless someone in the parish has killed another person.
Well, that certainly is not Church teaching. Last time I read the bible and the catechism, there were still 10 commandments, not just one.
I was very dissapointed when I came out of mass and the worse is that my younger, scientist sister was sitting next to me. She came home for Mother's Day. She agrees that Father G. needs to tell the truth the way it is. Then when I told her that a lot of people could indeed get confused by his teaching, she told me to stop being an extremist, that one day I will have children and they might not like me because I tend to be way too close-minded :X
Faith is one of the things that grounds us in this life, and is extremely important to pass along to our children. If you have actually conveyed his meaning, I think you need to question him on it.
____________________
Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
Luquette Lane
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JillD
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Posted: Sun May 13th, 2007 06:35 pm |
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I just finished a great book called "GK Chesterton: The Apostle of Common Sense." Great book for getting to know him as his erudite writings are predigested and explained a bit. The man was an uncommon genius.
Anyway, on p. 173 of this book are two Chesterton quotes about open minds:
"An open mind is really a mark of foolishness, like an open mouth."
and
"The object of opening the mind, as of opening the mouth, is to shut it again on something solid."
Chesterton believed that the human mind is designed to come to conclusions, and if it doesn't do that, it's not doing its job.
What your priest said, I'll leave to others, but there's nothing at all wrong with having a mind that knows what it believes!
____________________
"I praise you, for I am wondrously made. Wonderful are our works! My frame was not hidden from you, when I was being made in secret." Ps 139
"Guard me, O Lord, from the hands of the wicked; preserve me from violent men." Ps 140
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brian
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Posted: Sun May 13th, 2007 07:25 pm |
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cajunrick wrote: Purgatory is a doctrine of the Church; if the Church should "change its beliefs" on Purgatory, it will mean that the Church is not the one true church founded by Jesus Christ. Obviously that would be a very big deal. If this is actually what your priest said and meant, he should be challenged on it.
I do believe there is room though to modify beliefs on purgatory. Different generations seem to beliee different things as to its nature and severity, and Eastern Catholics do not even have to use the word purgatory (it carries negative middle age baggage for them) so much as believe in a state of purification after death that may possibly be pleasant. So they have the same concept but not with the same name and approached from a different angle.
Even Mother Angelica and others (some on this forum) I believe have favored a view of purgatory where we are burned clean by God's love and are at least comforted.
So I am curious as to what is changeable/rewordable about a doctrine versus what is set in stone.
As to this post, I will share your disappointment. I believe in the church as a whole, but I feel scared of the damage dissenters in high positions of authority can do.
Brian
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CajunRick
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Posted: Sun May 13th, 2007 08:23 pm |
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brian wrote: I do believe there is room though to modify beliefs on purgatory.
Of course, but the basic doctrine cannot change. The basic doctrine on Purgatory (simplified) is that it is a state of existence between earthly life and eternal bliss (heaven) in which final purification can take place. The Church cannot say it no longer exists, or that all those who die unpurified are immediately admitted to heaven. The Eastern doctrine of theosis covers the same essential theology without using the word "Purgatory".
"Limbo" has never been a doctrine of the Church, so the situation is entirely different.
So I am curious as to what is changeable/rewordable about a doctrine versus what is set in stone.
The part that is set in stone is that part which has been doctrinally defined by the Church either through a papal pronouncement or a council document. Everything beyond that is subject to reinterpretation. Even in those defined doctrines, understandings change as new opinions and scientific information comes to light. The basic doctrinal statement, however, can never change.
For example, it has always been the doctrine of the Church that abortion is evil. However, at various times in the Church, the understanding of the moment at which the child becomes "alive" has changed based on changing scientific knowledge. At one point, the male "seed" was believed to carry the child, while the woman's body was considered the fertile soil in which it was planted. Life was considered to begin at the moment of "quickening" or movement.
We know today that from the moment of conception, the baby has unique DNA, its own blood type, etc. So while the doctrine has not changed, it is understood and applied differently today than it was a millennium ago.
____________________
Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
Luquette Lane
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Angie_Rivas1
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Posted: Mon May 14th, 2007 02:28 am |
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What your priest said, I'll leave to others, but there's nothing at all wrong with having a mind that knows what it believes!
I have no objection to this, however I find confliction when a priest questions the Church teachings during his homily. I understand that it is okay to have our own opinions, but discussing these personal opinions during mass is not acceptable. A priest, especially during mass, represents the church and please feel free to correct me if I am wrong.
Father G. has made it known that he is very discontent with some of the church mandates, ie, celibacy. His attitude is not proactive, but sarcastic. Keep him in your prayers!
Angie
____________________
"Be not afraid" JPII
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JillD
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Posted: Mon May 14th, 2007 02:46 am |
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| I was referring to the fact that your sister thought you were close-minded. I don't know if your priest is or not; he sounds a little too open to me. Wrong ideas are finding a home in his thoughts, and then he's feeling free to voice them.
____________________
"I praise you, for I am wondrously made. Wonderful are our works! My frame was not hidden from you, when I was being made in secret." Ps 139
"Guard me, O Lord, from the hands of the wicked; preserve me from violent men." Ps 140
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JasPax
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Posted: Mon May 14th, 2007 07:18 am |
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Angie,
Your Bishop needs to be aware of this priest's teaching. If you feel uncomfortable "tatteling," send a copy of your message to the Bishop to the priest in question.
This priest knows he is opposing the doctrine of the Church and he needs to know that it is offensive to his parishioners. He might not care about that, but he might be less arrogant if he is called on the carpet by his bishop.
God's Blessings,
____________________
James
"Abide in me, and I in you..." John 15:4
"He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him." John 6:56
RSV-2CE
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japhy
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Posted: Mon May 14th, 2007 09:00 am |
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Angie_Rivas1 wrote: I am very troubled by what one of my parish priest said this morning during the homily. He's an Irish priest who's been a priest for forty years. He started by speaking about Limbo and how the Church makes mistakes. He said that the Church and the Holy Spirit do not mean the same thing. The priest even mentioned that he gives the church some years before It changes Its belief on the Purgatory (because it is not in the bible as Limbo was not there, either). He even critized the Church stand on celibacy for priests and how he believes it will change in the future due to the lack of ordained priests. Then he talked about what the church has done to marriage and how it was required to marry by a priest only until the early 20th century in USA. As long as people are committed and intend to love and be faifthful to each other, it should be fine.
When it was time to receive the Eucharist, he invited everyone to partake it because he said that all sins are forgiven during the celebration of the mass unless someone in the parish has killed another person.
Well, first of all, the homily is supposed to be an explanation and application of the Scripture heard that day, so I'm not sure why he was talking about all that, unless he thought the Council in the reading from Acts was the proper springboard for his own opinions about the Catholic faith.
From the things your priest mentioned -- Limbo, Purgatory, priestly celibacy, marriage, the Eucharist, and forgiveness of sins -- I'd say your priest is unhealthily progressive.
The Penitential Rite at the beginning of Mass does not include an absolution. When the priest says "May Almighty God bless us, forgive us our sins, and bring us to everlasting life," the rubrics do not include him making the Sign of the Cross (one of the elements of the absolution in the Sacrament of Reconciliation). The Mass's Penitential Rite does not replace the Sacrament, nor does it have the efficacy of the Sacrament.
We should all hope for the day when the Eucharist is shared by all, but to do so before that sharing is a reality (and not a symbol) is to do a disservice to the Sacrifice of Jesus Christ. From the earliest days of the Church, the Eucharistic Meal was only given to those baptized into the Church, and then only when they had discerned themselves (cf. 1 Cor 11:27-30).
Marriage is a Sacrament of the Church, and as such, is not handled lightly or frivolously. God ordained Marriage for mankind, which is why Catholics get married "in the sight of God". I'm sure lots of people plan on being "committed" and "intend to love and be faithful to one another", but that doesn't have that great a track record in the United States. Marriage preparation is something that cannot be overlooked. And why separate your wedding feast from the Wedding Feast of the Lamb, the Mass?
As Rick has explained, clerical celibacy is a law (not a doctrine or dogma), and laws can be changed. But you don't get rid of stop signs because people ignore them; you don't change laws for the wrong reasons. While the law might become simply a strongly advised discipline in the future (I really don't know), it is not the problem. The problem, I suspect, is a lack of fostering vocations in our boys and young men, helping them discern God's call to them. Many Altar Servers that I see don't really pay attention to what's going on, they just bring things up and take things down when it's time. I'm not saying we need to "blindside" or "railroad" our young men into the priesthood, I'm saying they need to be taught how to recognize a calling from God, and part of that involves them having a sense of reverence for the Mass, especially if they're serving the priest at the Altar.
Purgatory is a dogma of the Church; we may grow to understand it better, but we will always believe it. The dogma does not define how Purgatory operates, as far as I know, but we know it is the cleansing of the remnant of sin on the souls of the justified so that they may enter Heaven spotless and clean. Limbo is a theological hypothesis, a deduction based on other dogmas and doctrines, but it is not the only explanation. This is simply an area where the Church has not been granted an "answer" from the Holy Spirit, and it is for us to place our hope and trust in God and respect the Sacrament He has granted us, Baptism.
In short, it sounds like your priest wants ecumenism, "true" Christian unity, at any cost, even if it means abandoning the Apostolic Tradition of the Church, the Tradition which defends the Canon of Scripture, supports the interpretation of that Scripture, and preserves the Church established on Peter, Prince of the Apostles.
I'll pray for your priest, but also for your Bishop, since this matter may end up in his hands.
____________________
[Mary said,] "Do whatever he tells you." - John 2:5
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Angie_Rivas1
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Posted: Mon May 14th, 2007 11:52 am |
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JillD wrote: I was referring to the fact that your sister thought you were close-minded. I don't know if your priest is or not; he sounds a little too open to me. Wrong ideas are finding a home in his thoughts, and then he's feeling free to voice them.
Ooops! Sorry Jill for the misunderstanding  This is what happens when I write past my bedtime.
I am not sure if I could write to the bishop about this issue. Father G. is a retired priest and I do not want to cause him any trouble. Should I bring it up to the Pastor or another priest in the parish?
Father G. is NOT the priest I attent mass with. Father L. is my priest (mass at 7:45 am) and his homilies are waaay different! His life change -for the better as he puts it- when he was diagnosed with cancer. Please keep him in your prayers, too.
Angie
____________________
"Be not afraid" JPII
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Darlene
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Posted: Mon May 14th, 2007 02:10 pm |
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As to this post, I will share your disappointment. I believe in the church as a whole, but I feel scared of the damage dissenters in high positions of authority can do.
Brian
I must concur with you on this Brian, and this is yet another one of those "sticklers" that is causing me problems right now on my journey of faith. If the Catholic Church is the One, True, Holy, Apostolic Church, united in its beliefs and doctrines, then this should not be. It is expected in Protestantism that folks can have the freedom of being autonomous in their thinking and approach to many things scriptual, such as sacred scripture, tradition, customs, etc. This should not be within the Catholic Church.
And it troubles me even more that these dissenting priests, bishops, professors in Catholic colleges in the U.S. can continue in their positions without rebuke, correction or removal. Father Corapi many times speaks against these liberal movers and shakers within the Catholic Church USA. Yet why are they allowed to continue on raising havoc within the Body of Christ? Where are the Good Shepherds that should be removing these hirelings?
If I am to be a Catholic, then it should be different than the way it is in Protestantland, amen?
Darlene
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The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all. II Corinthians 13:14
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JasPax
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Posted: Mon May 14th, 2007 04:54 pm |
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Darlene:
This was my biggest stumbling block to my final conversion. In my past life I had had all I could take of divergent opinions by ECUSA priests of every concievable stripe and I didn't want to step from the frying pan into another fire. I also would like to see the Vatican crack down on these priests and theologians who teach a diffeent gospel. But...
But after I had a fairly good grasp on what the Church really believes and teaches, it dawned on me, (slow learner that I am), that why should I let those people (a minority) keep me from the TRUTH? Why should I let them chase me away from something I wanted so badly? Those people don't own the Church! It is not THEIR CHURCH! It is the Church founded by Jesus Christ.
If I have any question I look it up in the CCC. Read what our Holy Father Pope Benedict believes. (I 'm looking forward his new book). Let him be a model. And there are plenty of other good models.
There have been lots of poor priest, bishops, and even a few rotten Popes in the past 2,000 years, but the Holy Spirit, in the final analysis, still guides the Church and will till Jesus returns.
I don't know why those dissidents are allowed such freedom either, but I'm not going to let that situation rule my life. It's not my worry! Belive me, I've learnd that most Catholics are quietly orthodox believers. They ignore all that other stuff. I'll stick with them.
God's Blessings,
____________________
James
"Abide in me, and I in you..." John 15:4
"He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him." John 6:56
RSV-2CE
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JillD
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Posted: Mon May 14th, 2007 05:11 pm |
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Squeaky wheels get all the attention, but there are still faithful, quiet Catholics who don't rock the boat. I'll stay focused on them and realize that there always have been, still are, and always will be noisy dissenters in every group.
Wheat and tares in every group. Best advice I ever heard on that:
GROW MORE WHEAT!
Jill
____________________
"I praise you, for I am wondrously made. Wonderful are our works! My frame was not hidden from you, when I was being made in secret." Ps 139
"Guard me, O Lord, from the hands of the wicked; preserve me from violent men." Ps 140
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Steven Barrett
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Posted: Tue May 15th, 2007 12:51 pm |
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Rather than bemoaning the "squeaky wheels," why haven't traditional Catholics been more aggressive when it comes to putting one or two of our best advocates in each diocese? We have a few libs who are all the rage of the liberal media up here, but little ink is used when it comes to printing the Church's stand as promoted by active and loyal laity.
s.
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For anybody interested in reading commentary from a Catholic's socially conservative/fiscally liberal viewpoint, go to my new blog at http://www.politicsramble.com/ .
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Annie
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Posted: Wed May 16th, 2007 10:57 am |
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I was very disturbed about the situation in my home church and called the chancery office. i talked to the secretary for a couple of minutes and she sent my call right through to a guy who can do something about what's wrong. I explained the situation and he said to write him a letter. So I did, so at least I feel I did something rather than just walk away and let the situation deteriorate. I feel badly about it though. these things should not be.
As a new Catholic I wonder about everybody who says "ignore it" when speaking about things that are really very wrong. Human nature I guess. manyana, let somebody else do it, etc.
Now I feel lots better and my ulcer is beginning to heal.
____________________
Annie
Ora et labora
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