 |
| Author | Post |
|---|
JasPax
Member
| Joined: | Wed Nov 22nd, 2006 |
| Location: | North Carolina USA |
| Posts: | 242 |
| First Name: | James | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Episcopal to Catholic |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Tue Jan 23rd, 2007 02:00 pm |
|
This question is for Rick, David W. or anyone else who can help me understand this problem. I've asked the question of others and have never received a satisfactory answer. When I asked a Deacon I got an evasive answer. As I was watching some of the March for Life on EWTN, I thought I'd ask again.
1. For a long time, well before I was Catholic, I could not understand how those politicins who purport to be Catholic and present themselves at the Eucharist, can support abortion, either by their vote or vocal support. Or, for that matter, any catholic who supports or encourages abortion.
2. Knowing how arrogant humans can be, I think I can understand #1, but more importantly, why are bishops so reluctant to excommunicate those politicians who defy this basic teaching of the Church? It sems to me that the Church should have the courage to send a strong message and do the right thing. I think it would give heart to those who have worked so hard to oppose the culture that supports the killing of the pre-born.
Any answers to my puzzlement?
God Bless!
____________________
James
"Abide in me, and I in you..." John 15:4
"He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him." John 6:56
RSV-2CE
|
|
|
CajunRick
Network Helper
| Joined: | Fri Sep 29th, 2006 |
| Location: | Houma, Louisiana USA |
| Posts: | 5314 |
| First Name: | Rick (& Kermie) | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Lifetime Catholic, Latin Rite |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Tue Jan 23rd, 2007 03:21 pm |
|
JasPax wrote: 1. For a long time, well before I was Catholic, I could not understand how those politicins who purport to be Catholic and present themselves at the Eucharist, can support abortion, either by their vote or vocal support. Or, for that matter, any catholic who supports or encourages abortion.
Neither do I. Then again, I don't see how anyone can support the destruction of human life for convenience.
2. Knowing how arrogant humans can be, I think I can understand #1, but more importantly, why are bishops so reluctant to excommunicate those politicians who defy this basic teaching of the Church? It sems to me that the Church should have the courage to send a strong message and do the right thing. I think it would give heart to those who have worked so hard to oppose the culture that supports the killing of the pre-born.
Just because you are not aware of excommunications doesn't mean they are not taking place.
Bishop Emeritus Rene Henry Gracida of Corpus Christi, TX, wrote an article in 2004 called "Denying Holy Communion: A Case Study" in which he explained the steps he had taken in regards to a pro-abortion politician. Note that every action explained in the article was taken in private, and it was revealed only a decade later, and even then the name of the politician was withheld.
There is no reason to believe that other politicians have not faced similar action, but we would never know. Bishop Gracida writes in part:
| There is no need for public denial of Holy Communion. There is no need to reduce the need for public denial of Holy Communion to the worst case scenario: the minister of Holy Communion loudly refusing to give the Host to a loudly protesting pro-abortion politician in front of a church full of people. The implementation of Canon 915 can be carried out in complete privacy and confidentiality. |
If this politician presented himself for communion to Bishop Gracida, he would have been forbidden to receive communion. However, no one else knew of the excommunication and even if another minister knew, he would have no way to know whether the politician had repented and the excommunication been lifted.
We think of excommunication as a "sentence" in response to a "crime" but that's not really the case. Excommunication is the voluntary separation of a person from the authority of the Church. Most excommunications are automatic; for example, any woman who has an abortion is automatically excommunicated, as is the father who pays for it, the friend who drives her to the clinic, the receptionist who makes the appointment, the doctor who performs the abortion, the nurse who assists, etc. (There are other excommunicable offenses, but abortion is the issue on the table, so that's what I'm using.) One bishop emeritus, Phillip Hannan of New Orleans, went so far as to say that he believed anyone who voted for Mary Landrieu for U. S. Senate because of her pro-abortion stance was automatically excommunicated.
The only time a formal excommunication is publicly announced is when it is necessary to prevent the faithful from being mislead. Leander Perez of Plaquemines parish in Louisiana was excommunicated in the early 1960s by Archbishop (later Cardinal Archbishop of Chicago) Cody because of his racist views. He claimed that the Church did not have the authority to admit black Catholics to white parochial schools and churches. He stood on the steps of the church and physically prevented African Americans from entering, while loudly denouncing the archbishop and the Church. His excommunication was announced publicly because he had taken a public stance against the church. No doubt many other politicians were excommunicated as well over their racist views and actions, but no others were publicly announced.
So in conclusion, let me repeat my earlier statement: Just because you're not aware of excommunications doesn't mean they're not taking place. The Church will never handle anything publicly that it thinks can be better handled in private. There is no "sunshine law" in the Catholic Church, and spiritual matters are intensely private.
____________________
Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
Luquette Lane
|
|
|
Darlene
Member
| Joined: | Mon Oct 9th, 2006 |
| Location: | Pocono Mountains, Pennsylvania USA |
| Posts: | 868 |
| First Name: | Darlene | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Christian, trusting His love and forgiveness |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Tue Jan 23rd, 2007 03:34 pm |
|
Jaxpax and Everyone,
Along this line I'll add another question. I watched the Mass in Honor of Life on EWTN in the Basillica of the Immaculate Conception the other night. While I thought it was very beautiful, I noticed that the Arch Bishop of Washington D.C. and that parish was there. (Of course that was no surprise to me) But I was annoyed that he had the pretense of acting as a Catholic who is pro-life yet his actions prove otherwise. Recently I read an article that said Arch Bishop Wuerl (sp?) had presided at a Mass in his parish in which Nancy Palosi attended. And she spoke publicly about her Catholic faith yet she is extremely liberal and pro-abortion. This arch bishop, when later questioned on this matter, was evasive.
Why are these bishops, who compromise on the Catholic faith by shaking hands with and supporting these Anti-Catholic fake Catholic politicians, not reprimanded and warned by the American Bishops and the Vatican to stop their public support of Anti-Catholic policies and politicians or else be booted out? Father Groeshel, to his credit, reprimanded these supposed Catholic politicians publicly yesterday while being interviewed by Marcus Grodi at the March For Life.
The longer the Church allows these wolves in sheeps clothing to continue spreading their lies, the less effective the testimony for Jesus Christ and the Catholic Church will be.
BTW, I noticed that Arch Bishop Wuerle did not stand with the other Bishops and Arch Bishops at the Pro-life March For Life yesterday, further making his stance on pro-life issues suspect.
Darlene
____________________
The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all. II Corinthians 13:14
|
|
|
CajunRick
Network Helper
| Joined: | Fri Sep 29th, 2006 |
| Location: | Houma, Louisiana USA |
| Posts: | 5314 |
| First Name: | Rick (& Kermie) | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Lifetime Catholic, Latin Rite |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Tue Jan 23rd, 2007 03:48 pm |
|
Darlene wrote: (Of course that was no surprise to me) But I was annoyed that he had the pretense of acting as a Catholic who is pro-life yet his actions prove otherwise. Recently I read an article that said Arch Bishop Wuerl (sp?) had presided at a Mass in his parish in which Nancy Palosi attended. And she spoke publicly about her Catholic faith yet she is extremely liberal and pro-abortion. This arch bishop, when later questioned on this matter, was evasive.
Please read the article I mentioned above by Bishop Gracida.
The Church handles such matters privately. We should not assume that a bishop who publicly greets and smiles at a pro-abortion politician is not working behind the scenes, any more than we should assume that Condolezza Rice smiling at a North Korean delegation means that she agrees with their Communist views.
Nancy Pelosi is not a resident of the archdiocese of Washington. We do not know whether she has been excommunicated or not, or whether she receives communion in defiance of an interdict put in place by her bishop, and we will probably never know. While she is in Washington she is under the jurisdiction of that diocese, but it is still the bishop of her own diocese who is responsible, not the archbishop of Washington.
The same would be true of other pro-abortion politicians such as Ted Kennedy, John Kerry, and Mary Landrieu. If they are excommunicated, the order would come from their own bishops, not the archbishop of Washington.
And ultimately they will be held responsible for their actions when they face their Maker.
____________________
Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
Luquette Lane
|
|
|
JasPax
Member
| Joined: | Wed Nov 22nd, 2006 |
| Location: | North Carolina USA |
| Posts: | 242 |
| First Name: | James | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Episcopal to Catholic |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Tue Jan 23rd, 2007 04:30 pm |
|
Thank you for your answer Rick. That helps. I understand the usual need for privacy in most cases and certainly, no one would want a confrontation at the distribution of the Euchatist.
However, as in the case of the racist you mentioned, I think it might send an important message (and reduce confusion) if the excommunication of certain very high profile abortion-supporting politicians became public knowledge.
Just my opinion, for whatever it's worth - which isn't much.
God Bless,
____________________
James
"Abide in me, and I in you..." John 15:4
"He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him." John 6:56
RSV-2CE
|
|
|
CajunRick
Network Helper
| Joined: | Fri Sep 29th, 2006 |
| Location: | Houma, Louisiana USA |
| Posts: | 5314 |
| First Name: | Rick (& Kermie) | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Lifetime Catholic, Latin Rite |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Tue Jan 23rd, 2007 04:37 pm |
|
JasPax wrote: However, as in the case of the racist you mentioned, I think it might send an important message (and reduce confusion) if the excommunication of certain very high profile abortion-supporting politicians became public knowledge.
I don't disagree, but it's not my call.
____________________
Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
Luquette Lane
|
|
|
JillD
Member
| Joined: | Fri Sep 29th, 2006 |
| Location: | Visalia, California USA |
| Posts: | 754 |
| First Name: | Jill | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | heathen, EvFree, Messianic, LC-MS, Catholic 2007 |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Tue Jan 23rd, 2007 04:49 pm |
|
| What about the instructions in Matthew 18:15-17 concerning an unrepentant sinner which leads to this lack of repentance being announced to the church and the unrepentant one ultimately being treated like a tax collector??
____________________
"I praise you, for I am wondrously made. Wonderful are our works! My frame was not hidden from you, when I was being made in secret." Ps 139
"Guard me, O Lord, from the hands of the wicked; preserve me from violent men." Ps 140
|
|
|
CajunRick
Network Helper
| Joined: | Fri Sep 29th, 2006 |
| Location: | Houma, Louisiana USA |
| Posts: | 5314 |
| First Name: | Rick (& Kermie) | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Lifetime Catholic, Latin Rite |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Tue Jan 23rd, 2007 05:22 pm |
|
JillD wrote: [size=What about the instructions in Matthew 18:15-17 concerning an unrepentant sinner which leads to this lack of repentance being announced to the church and the unrepentant one ultimately being treated like a tax collector??]
That's not what it says.
"If your brother sins (against you), go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have won over your brother.
If he does not listen, take one or two others along with you, so that 'every fact may be established on the testimony of two or three witnesses.'
If he refuses to listen to them, tell the church. If he refuses to listen even to the church, then treat him as you would a Gentile or a tax collector. |
The sin is not against me, so this section does not apply.
Next, what is "the Church"? Answer: we all are. But how is authority exercised within the Church? Answer: Through the bishops.
Catholics United for the Faith have a Faith Fact on the authority of bishops, which you'll find here. To quote in part, Catholics are obliged to remain staunchly loyal to all bishops who are in communion with the pope, particularly to one’s own bishop. It is not the layperson’s role (nor even within the layperson’s authority) to judge whether a bishop is in communion with the pope. Rather, only the pope makes this decision. We cannot drive a wedge between the universal Church, represented by the pope, and the diocesan (or particular) Church, headed by the bishop. There are only two possibilities: Either we’re in communion with the pope and his bishops, or we’re not.
It is not up to us to determine how the bishop exercises his authority. Only the bishop and the pope can make that determination. When the bishop deems it advisable to publicize something, he will. Until then, it is not our place to second-guess.
I think it was St. Iraneus who said, "where the bishop is, there is the Catholic Church." (I trust someone will correct me if I'm wrong.) So when we tell the bishop, we do tell the Church. When the bishop takes action, the Church takes action.
When the bishop issues an interdict, he is telling a person he is separated from the community; he is being treated as a Gentile or tax collector in Jesus' day. He is not allowed at the Eucharistic table, and his immortal soul is endangered. That still doesn't mean we need a public confrontation if he decides to disobey the order. God will know what the Church, through her bishop, has bound, and it will be bound in heaven.
Last edited on Tue Jan 23rd, 2007 08:48 pm by CajunRick
____________________
Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
Luquette Lane
|
|
|
Cindy
Member
| Joined: | Fri Nov 17th, 2006 |
| Location: | California USA |
| Posts: | 42 |
| First Name: | Cindy | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Catholic convert |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Tue Jan 23rd, 2007 05:47 pm |
|
Recently published by Ascension Press, Excommunication and the Catholic Church: Straight Answers to Tough Questions by canon lawyer Edward Peters has a lot to say on this topic and is a fascinating read. It's available through Catholic Answers.
Excommunication And The Catholic Church
Blessings,
Cindy
____________________
The Lord is near to all who call upon Him, to all who call upon Him in Truth -- Psalm 145:18
|
|
|
JillD
Member
| Joined: | Fri Sep 29th, 2006 |
| Location: | Visalia, California USA |
| Posts: | 754 |
| First Name: | Jill | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | heathen, EvFree, Messianic, LC-MS, Catholic 2007 |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Tue Jan 23rd, 2007 08:11 pm |
|
cajunrick wrote: The sin is not against me, so this section does not apply.
I do understand and agree with what you said about the Bishop representing the entire Church, but I thought that Catholic teaching said that a sin against one is a sin against the whole body so that sin is against me and against all the other members of the body. The phrase "against you" is a tad ambiguous. When I stub my toe, the pain doesn't stop at my ankle but my whole body is in agony, though I do allow the local tissue to mend itself. However, if gangrene sets in, off it goes! Last edited on Tue Jan 23rd, 2007 08:14 pm by JillD
____________________
"I praise you, for I am wondrously made. Wonderful are our works! My frame was not hidden from you, when I was being made in secret." Ps 139
"Guard me, O Lord, from the hands of the wicked; preserve me from violent men." Ps 140
|
|
|
CajunRick
Network Helper
| Joined: | Fri Sep 29th, 2006 |
| Location: | Houma, Louisiana USA |
| Posts: | 5314 |
| First Name: | Rick (& Kermie) | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Lifetime Catholic, Latin Rite |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Tue Jan 23rd, 2007 08:45 pm |
|
The sin is not against me, so this section does not apply. I do understand and agree with what you said about the Bishop representing the entire Church, but I thought that Catholic teaching said that a sin against one is a sin against the whole body so that sin is against me and against all the other members of the body. The phrase "against you" is a tad ambiguous. When I stub my toe, the pain doesn't stop at my ankle but my whole body is in agony, though I do allow the local tissue to mend itself. However, if gangrene sets in, off it goes!
In my opinion, the verse refers specifically to disagreements among church members, not general sinfulness. When a politician votes to permit abortion, it is a social sin committed against all of society and is committed against me as a member of that society, but it is not specifically directed at me as it would be if he had stolen something from me or harmed me or a member of my family.
Sin certainly harms the whole body of Christ, but a social sin committed in public does not need to be brought to the attention of the Church, and it is certainly not my responsibility to determine the method of punishment or how that punishment is to be carried out. That is the bishop's responsibility.
____________________
Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
Luquette Lane
|
|
|
JillD
Member
| Joined: | Fri Sep 29th, 2006 |
| Location: | Visalia, California USA |
| Posts: | 754 |
| First Name: | Jill | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | heathen, EvFree, Messianic, LC-MS, Catholic 2007 |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Wed Jan 24th, 2007 02:12 am |
|
If nothing else, by the Church not doing something visible about pro-abortion politicians, a very bad witness to the world is created. My husband and I don't talk a lot about my conversion, but one of his first complaints is the hypocrisy he sees in the Church which claims to be pro-life and adamantly so (unlike the wishy-washy stance of so many Protestant denom's), yet will not publicly and visibly take a stand against these public figures. It's demoralizing and confusing to me. It's an aspect of the Church that I try not to think about too much because it makes me wonder if I'm doing the right thing.
I just read a really good essay about GK Chesterton and his conversion to Catholicism. He said that he sees three stages in conversion:
1)Giving the Church a fair hearing
2)Exploring the Church's teachings
3)Running away from the Church because it's become obvious that the Church is correct
And yet he also says this: “only the word of a Catholic can keep him from Catholicism. One foolish word from inside does more harm than a hundred thousand foolish words from outside.”
At some point, it's no longer the words of non-Catholics that can dissuade one from pursuing the Church; it's the words and actions of those inside the Church that harm and disillusion.
Watching John Kerry and Nancy Pelosi and Gray Davis and Ted Kennedy, etc. take the Eucharist must be terribly demoralizing to faithful Catholics and it surely feeds the fervor of anti-Catholics. And allowing one to take Communion must harm the soul and right standing with God of the one partaking. For their own good they ought not be given the Body of the Lord.
If I know that Nancy Pelosi is in a state of mortal sin and taking Communion, how might that affect my ability to justify my own similar act?
I guess we'll disagree on this, but to one who is in the state of moving toward the Church, this situation is very confusing and demoralizing. I'm just telling you how it makes me feel personally.
Jill
____________________
"I praise you, for I am wondrously made. Wonderful are our works! My frame was not hidden from you, when I was being made in secret." Ps 139
"Guard me, O Lord, from the hands of the wicked; preserve me from violent men." Ps 140
|
|
|
Ali
Member
| Joined: | Sat Jan 6th, 2007 |
| Location: | Ohio USA |
| Posts: | 661 |
| First Name: | Ali | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | JW, finally fully Catholic |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Wed Jan 24th, 2007 11:18 am |
|
For me it's more about not holding politicians on a pedastal (sp?). They are people like everyone else. More public, yes, but still ordinary people with sometimes controversial opinions just like the rest of us. I don't expect salvation to come from those people. I don't judge or watch people as the go up for communion. So if they do receive, it is none of my concern. It is between them and God, and as someone else said, they will meet their maker eventually. This sin in on their concsious, not mine.
The Catholic church is big and deep and rich (I'm not talking materially), we cannot expect to know or understand all of the how's and why's of what the higher ups do or don't do. And some stuff just isn't any of our business.
All we can do IRT this is let our pro-life choice be heard with our politicians but at the same time not be a one issue voter. Sometimes it really is the lesser of two evils.
|
|
|
Ali
Member
| Joined: | Sat Jan 6th, 2007 |
| Location: | Ohio USA |
| Posts: | 661 |
| First Name: | Ali | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | JW, finally fully Catholic |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Wed Jan 24th, 2007 11:32 am |
|
JillD wrote[size=
If I know that Nancy Pelosi is in a state of mortal sin and taking Communion, how might that affect my ability to justify my own similar act?
I guess we'll disagree on this, but to one who is in the state of moving toward the Church, this situation is very confusing and demoralizing. I'm just telling you how it makes me feel personally.
Jill]
But who are we to judge Ms. Pelosi? Never should someone elses sin be used to justify our own. When we know better we do better. We are offered exceptions for sins committed out of ignorance. Not because someone else did it first and got away with it.
Ali
|
|
|
Cindy
Member
| Joined: | Fri Nov 17th, 2006 |
| Location: | California USA |
| Posts: | 42 |
| First Name: | Cindy | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Catholic convert |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Thu Jan 25th, 2007 01:08 am |
|
You're right, Jill. Pro-abortion "Catholic" politicians have been scandalizing the Church for years and private confrontations obviously haven't gotten anywhere. When Catholic politicians vote for pro-abortion legislation and then go forward to receive Holy Communion, they demoralize the faithful and cause grave scandal. It's time for our bishops to take a strong public stand. Thank God for the bishops and priests who have had the courage to do so!
An excellent article on this topic is When Bishops Teach, by Mary Jo Anderson:
http://www.catholic.com/thisrock/2003/0305fea1.asp
God bless!
Cindy
"The scandal started with Catholic politicians pushing abortion. It deepened when they weren't upbraided by those in authority. It will continue until the bishops take to heart Teddy Roosevelt's advice about using big sticks" -- Karl Keating
____________________
The Lord is near to all who call upon Him, to all who call upon Him in Truth -- Psalm 145:18
|
|
|
Darlene
Member
| Joined: | Mon Oct 9th, 2006 |
| Location: | Pocono Mountains, Pennsylvania USA |
| Posts: | 868 |
| First Name: | Darlene | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Christian, trusting His love and forgiveness |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Thu Jan 25th, 2007 04:32 pm |
|
Dear Jill and Cindy,
I agree with you both wholeheartedly. If the Mass is to be a representation of Heavenly Worship, then what blemish on the love feast these pro-abortionists are! And this isn't like giving Communion to someone who is an unknown. And as a non-Catholic who is on a journey toward the Catholic faith, this is very troublesome to me.
Last week while talking to the priest in the parish I am attending, I asked him why it is that many Catholics can take the Eucharist so lightly and without much thought. He said that many of us are on different places in our journey and not all are at the same place as I am. He mentioned in the course of this conversation that only in certain cases would he refrain from administering the Eucharist to someone, and that would be if it was a situation that would have an adverse effect on the rest of the congregation. That's not quoting him exactly. I will talk to him more on this subject because it is very troubling to me.
And the article I read about Arch Bishop Wuerle of the Washington D.C parish was an uncomplimentary one written by a Bishop in the Catholic Church.
So, what if a public figure who claims to be Catholic, poses in Playboy or does a porn video or openly criticizes the Pope or is found to be breaking any serious law? I could add to this list. Should they just be able to cavalierly receive Communion? There is something wrong with this picture when these liberal Politicians, who not only support abortion but other immoral practices, are able to partake in something so sacred as the Eucharist.
Think of it this way. The Bishops and Arch Bishops handled the abusive priests their own way for many years. When the scandal broke, the Catholic Church was maligned. So trusting them to "handle" this problem proved ineffective and damaging. The result is that many parishes in the Boston area closed and many Catholics left the faith because they could not trust in its leadership. I listened to a program on NPR recently about this very issue and it saddened me to learn of all those Catholics who were devastated by this scandal. They lost faith in their priests and bishops. They left their parishes. The Catholics who were interviewed on this program were doing the best to "pick up the pieces" after the damage was done. And even worse, because the abusive priests were not properly dealt with, they were assigned to other parishes and able to continue abuse. This resulted in the harm of many precious children. There is no excuse for that. And all because they handled it their way. The parishners who are devout Catholics need to be treated with more respect than that. Think of all those young men who were abused and the life-long adverse effects of that abuse.
The Bishops need to listen to what the faithful parishners are saying in regards to these moral issues. A light is always being cast on the Church and her actions regarding moral issues. The media is always ready to expose any scandal within the Church. Church officials know this and need to take this into account to be faithful witnesses and representatives of the Catholic Church. And since the Church is to be a light unto the nations and bring many to faith in the Gospel of Jesus Christ, she needs to be making it clear that sin within her ranks will not be tolerated. Otherwise, the Church is a poor witness to the world. And the priest sex abuse scandal is proof of this.
Now, with all the above said, I am not in any way trying to find fault with the Church in order to cause disharmony, disunity or factions. But there are some things that I have strong convictions about and this is one of them. So for those of you who look at this situation differently, let us agree to disagree.
Darlene
____________________
The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all. II Corinthians 13:14
|
|
|
anfan
Member
| Joined: | Mon Oct 9th, 2006 |
| Location: | |
| Posts: | 28 |
| First Name: | | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Thu Jan 25th, 2007 06:02 pm |
|
Ali wrote:
But who are we to judge Ms. Pelosi?
We can't judge the state of a person's soul, but we can certainly make moral judgments about his or her actions. Voting for immoral legislation is a serious sin.
Quoting the Anderson article:
"A crucial aspect of the bishop’s pastoral care is to defend the faithful from scandal—in this case from prominent politicians who claim to be faithful Catholics but whose public behavior is in direct conflict with the teachings of the Church. A good bishop cannot permit a public model of erroneous Catholic practice to go unchallenged. Such public behavior left unchallenged may lead people to assume that the faulty practice is acceptable and thus endanger their souls as well."
Pax
"Is it not those inside the Church whom you are to judge? ... Drive out the wicked person from among you" (1 Cor. 5:12-13).
|
|
|
Darlene
Member
| Joined: | Mon Oct 9th, 2006 |
| Location: | Pocono Mountains, Pennsylvania USA |
| Posts: | 868 |
| First Name: | Darlene | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Christian, trusting His love and forgiveness |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Thu Jan 25th, 2007 06:29 pm |
|
Thank you Anfan,
Can you tell me where I can find that Anderson article?
Darlene
____________________
The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all. II Corinthians 13:14
|
|
|
JasPax
Member
| Joined: | Wed Nov 22nd, 2006 |
| Location: | North Carolina USA |
| Posts: | 242 |
| First Name: | James | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Episcopal to Catholic |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Thu Jan 25th, 2007 07:23 pm |
|
MEA CULPA !
I started this thread and now I sort of wish I hadn't. I agree with most everything written, but...
May this senior citizen humbly suggest we remember what is, I think, the purpose of the forum. We should ask questions about the teaching and approved practices of the Catholic Church and get straight answers from folks who have those answers. Which we do.
The Church isn't perfect because we've got a bunch of sinful humans - like me - in it. But I thank God all the time that I finally had the sense to be here. Let's concentrate on the positives here and let God work on those who can make the changes we might wish for. We can pray for them.
Again, I apologize.
I hope these comments don't hurt anyone's feelings. Not my intention!
God Bless All!
____________________
James
"Abide in me, and I in you..." John 15:4
"He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him." John 6:56
RSV-2CE
|
|
|
anfan
Member
| Joined: | Mon Oct 9th, 2006 |
| Location: | |
| Posts: | 28 |
| First Name: | | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Thu Jan 25th, 2007 09:09 pm |
|
Darlene wrote: Thank you Anfan,
Can you tell me where I can find that Anderson article?
Darlene
Darlene,
It's the article that Cindy posted the link to above.
"When Bishops Teach" by Mary Jo Anderson
http://www.catholic.com/thisrock/2003/0305fea1.asp
For additional reading:
Catholic Politicians and Abortion
U.S. Bishops Address Catholic Politicians and Voters
http://www.ewtn.com/vote/Catholic_Politicians/index.asp
Statement by Bishop John Yanta Regarding Politicians and Communion
http://www.priestsforlife.org/magisterium/bishops/04-07-18yanta.htm
Pax
"As your bishop, I have to say clearly that anyone—politician or otherwise—who thinks it is acceptable for a Catholic to be pro-abortion is in very great error, puts his or her soul at risk, and is not in good standing with the Church." -- Bishop William Weigand of Sacramento, California
|
|
|
CajunRick
Network Helper
| Joined: | Fri Sep 29th, 2006 |
| Location: | Houma, Louisiana USA |
| Posts: | 5314 |
| First Name: | Rick (& Kermie) | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Lifetime Catholic, Latin Rite |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Thu Jan 25th, 2007 09:54 pm |
|
First of all, let me say that I don't disagree with anything said in this thread. The stance of the Church against abortion is a matter of doctrine; the method of enforcement is a matter of discipline, and so we are free to disagree with the way the Church handles the matter.
The Church instructs all pro-abortion politicians that they may not present themselves to receive Holy Communion. She also advises all who are not properly married, or engaging in pre- or extra-marital sex that they may not present themselves for Holy Communion. Those who are in improper marriages may not also present themselves for Holy Communion. Those who are in the state of mortal sin may also not present themselves for Holy Communion. A politican who votes in favor of funding abortion clinics may argue that if no women presented themselves for abortions, no sin would be committed, while living in an invalid marriage is a personal choice. One is public, the other is not. Which is the greater sin?
Is a politician who votes in favor of funding abortions commit a greater sin than a couple who is cohabitating without marriage? What about a couple who's legally valid marriage is not recognized by the Church?
Practically speaking, should every single Minister of Holy Communion study mug shots before distributing communion? Should we ask each person who presents themselves for Holy Communion whether they are guilty of a mortal sin? Should we require that they give us a certificate of confession guaranteeing that every possible mortal sin has been absolved prior to them entering the communion line?
The Church tells those who are guilty of sins not to receive communion, whether they be pro-abortion politicians, or cohabitating couples, or people in invalid marriages. How can every individual Minister of Communion know who to refuse? How are we supposed to know if they have repented and the sanctions have been lifted?
Should a bishop, the shepherd of the flock, turn his back to a sinner? Is that what Jesus did? Did Jesus refuse to eat with prostitutes and tax collectors? Did he tell the woman at the well that he didn't have time to smile at her because she was living with a man who was not her husband? Or did he reach out to her with love and reach her entire community through her?
In order to prevent a pro-abortion politician from receiving Holy Communion, we would have to instruct every single Minister of the Eucharist in the entire world to refuse them. If someone in my parish bears a resemblance, am I supposed to stop the communion line to ask if that person is a pro-abortion politician? "Excuse me, are you Nancy Pelosi?" What about pro-abortion Catholics who are not politicians? Do I refuse them, too? How do I know?
The Church issues instructions as part of the Magisterium. They are binding on me as a Catholic. If I choose to ignore them, it is my soul that is at risk. There should be no risk of scandal because the entire Church should know the teaching. If I ignore it, it is my fault, not the Church's.
Murder is against civil law. Is it a scandal if i commit murder? No, because the law is well known, and I am punished for violating it. The law against receiving Communion for those who do not follow Church teaching on moral issues should be well known. the punishment will take place at the throne of the Judge of us all, not in the Sunday communion line.
____________________
Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
Luquette Lane
|
|
|
Cindy
Member
| | |
