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youngone88 Member
| Joined: | Wed Apr 30th, 2008 |
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| First Name: | Stephen | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Lutheran-Evangelical-soon to be Catholic? (still seeking) |
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Posted: Sun Jul 20th, 2008 02:02 am |
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I've recently been a little confused about the argument often used against protestants regarding the Biblical canon and infallibility.
First off... Catholics didn't technically didn't have a truly infallible pronouncement on the canon until the council of trent, correct? The earlier councils that affirmed the canon, as far as I know, were not ecumenical councils.
Second...We don't really have an infallible list of the infallible teachings or even an infallible list of popes; aren't these things just as necessary for the Catholic to know as the Biblical canon is for the Protestant (after all, if we were following the wrong pope, that could change alot!).
I've heard that we should accept the teachings of the Church regardless of whether it is infallible or not, but I'm not sure how I would go about doing this. If the teachings of the Church, the catechism, and non-ecumenical councils can err (because they aren't infallible?), how does your average Catholic really know what teachings he simply cannot disagree with are?
This concern is magnified by descriptions of the Athanasius incident with the Arians. I hope you don't mind if I post a description I read of what an average Christian might have seen during this time (I only do so with the confidence that you guys can help clarify )
35 Athanasius exiled to Trier by the command of the Council of Tyre by an Arian-heavy council. Arius invited to return to the Church, but dies suddenly before his reinstatement. 353-4 Council of Arles: Athanasius is condemned as a heretic for teaching against the Arians by several bishops and Pope Liberius' legate.
355 Council of Milan: Athanasius once more condemned as a heretic in a much larger council--all in attendance (including Papal legates) save 3 bishops condemned Athanasius as a heretic. Arians admitted to communion. Athanasius, Pope Liberius, and others are exiled.
357 Pope Liberius signs a condemnation of Athanasius--this was after two years of exile, and probably under torture.
I do note that Liberius was in exile for two years and probably tortured at the time--but still, he signed a heretical document!.
359-360 Council of Seleucia in the East, Council of Rimini in the West both confirm Arian and Semi-Arian doctrines. St. Jerome writes his famous comment: "The whole world groaned and marvelled to find itself Arian."
After this description the writer issued a challenge; how would a good Catholic have known the true teaching of the Church? If they couldn't trust all councils and bishops, how do we trust the non-infallible councils and bishops of today?
once again, thank you guys so much in advance for your time.
Last edited on Sun Jul 20th, 2008 02:05 am by youngone88
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David W. Emery Network Helper
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Posted: Sun Jul 20th, 2008 04:14 am |
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Hello Stephen. Good to see you again.
The first thing we need to do is get the “rules of the game” out where everybody can see them. Here is a passage from the Catechism of the Catholic Church that sets out pretty plainly the Church’s teaching concerning infallibility.
889 In order to preserve the Church in the purity of the faith handed on by the apostles, Christ who is the Truth willed to confer on her a share in his own infallibility. By a “supernatural sense of faith” the People of God, under the guidance of the Church’s living Magisterium, “unfailingly adheres to this faith.”
890 The mission of the Magisterium is linked to the definitive nature of the covenant established by God with his people in Christ. It is this Magisterium’s task to preserve God’s people from deviations and defections and to guarantee them the objective possibility of professing the true faith without error. Thus, the pastoral duty of the Magisterium is aimed at seeing to it that the People of God abides in the truth that liberates. To fulfill this service, Christ endowed the Church’s shepherds with the charism of infallibility in matters of faith and morals. The exercise of this charism takes several forms:
891 “The Roman Pontiff, head of the college of bishops, enjoys this infallibility in virtue of his office, when, as supreme pastor and teacher of all the faithful — who confirms his brethren in the faith he proclaims by a definitive act a doctrine pertaining to faith or morals.… The infallibility promised to the Church is also present in the body of bishops when, together with Peter’s successor, they exercise the supreme Magisterium,” above all in an Ecumenical Council. When the Church through its supreme Magisterium proposes a doctrine “for belief as being divinely revealed,” and as the teaching of Christ, the definitions “must be adhered to with the obedience of faith.” This infallibility extends as far as the deposit of divine Revelation itself.
892 Divine assistance is also given to the successors of the apostles, teaching in communion with the successor of Peter, and, in a particular way, to the bishop of Rome, pastor of the whole Church, when, without arriving at an infallible definition and without pronouncing in a “definitive manner,” they propose in the exercise of the ordinary Magisterium a teaching that leads to better understanding of Revelation in matters of faith and morals. To this ordinary teaching the faithful “are to adhere to it with religious assent” which, though distinct from the assent of faith, is nonetheless an extension of it.
Before proceeding, you need to know that the pope and ecumenical councils making use of the Extraordinary Magisterium (solemn proclamation of dogma) is not the ordinary way things are handled. That is why this method is called “extraordinary.” There is such a thing as Ordinary Magisterium, which consists of official teaching by the bishops of the Church (including the bishop of Rome, whom we call the Pope because of his universal jurisdiction) on a level lower than the solemn proclamation of dogma. Dogma is the highest level of solemnity for doctrine, but it is not the only level. Many more doctrines are taught at lower levels. The Ordinary Magisterium, as described in §892 above, is not of the same level of authority as the Extraordinary Magisterium.
Furthermore, the unanimity of the faithful in a particular point of faith is just as true and unfailing as the teaching of the bishops (§889). This means that if something is effectively believed as a matter of the faith by the great body of Church members over the centuries, it is just as infallible as something pronounced by an ecumenical council. Notice that there are conditions and limitations to this, as there are to all the other forms of the charism of infallibility. The point I’m making here is that it is primarily the Church itself that is infallible; the pope’s or an ecumenical council’s infallibility exists only in service to the Church.
Again, we can see (§890 and §892) that the subject matter has to be “faith and morals.” An excommunication, for instance, cannot qualify as infallible because its subject matter is discipline, not doctrine.
Basically, then, what we see in these Protestant arguments which you bring to the table is that the Protestants are misunderstanding the purpose, scope and substance of infallibility.
Therefore, regarding the establishment of the canon of scripture: The canon was established explicitly as a dogma during the Council of Trent, but several other, earlier councils provided a single, consistent list of its contents and declared this to be what the Church accepted at a far earlier date. This constitutes at least Ordinary Magisterium described in §892. Ordinary Magisterium is clear, authoritative teaching but is not infallible. Obedient acceptance is expected because it is a statement of faith and morals by a regional group of bishops, and their council has been ratified by the pope. It was on the basis of these councils that the Council of Trent could proclaim the same canon dogmatically. In other words, the Council of Trent cannot be isolated from what went before, because what went before determined what the Council of Trent could declare.
No council, no pope can simply “declare” something to be “of the faith” without that item already being believed by the faithful and taught by the bishops throughout the history of Christianity. Councils and popes cannot and do not “invent” doctrine, but must acknowledge only what has gone before. Growth in understanding of doctrine is allowed (indeed, encouraged), but there must always be a precedent.
We don't really have an infallible list of the infallible teachings or even an infallible list of popes.
These are not doctrine at all, but record keeping. Record keeping does not qualify for infallibility. So for a Protestant to insist on a definitive list is a gross misunderstanding of Catholicism. Besides, does his own denomination provide such an exhaustive list of tenets or history as he is demanding of the Catholic Church? How is he not attempting to apply a double standard here?
I've heard that we should accept the teachings of the Church regardless of whether it is infallible or not, but I'm not sure how I would go about doing this.
The Catechism distinguishes between “consent of faith” and “religious consent” to legitimate authority in §892. Just as we distinguish materially between what is written in scripture and the Church’s interpretation of it, so we distinguish between different levels of authority. The consent of faith is given only to those points of doctrine taught definitively by the Church; religious consent is given to all else.
If the teachings of the Church, the catechism, and non-ecumenical councils can err (because they aren't infallible?), how does your average Catholic really know what teachings he simply cannot disagree with are?
He has to give some kind of assent regardless of the level of authority involved, simply because it does involve authority. You don’t talk back to a judge without consequence, even if he is wrong, because regardless of whether he is right or wrong, he has the authority to put you in the slammer for contempt. Therefore, requiring anyone to know the subtle difference between levels of doctrine is simply unnecessary, as well as unjust. We are not saved on the basis of what we know, but on the basis of what we do. If we obey the Church through faith in Jesus Christ, whose body the Church is, we are assured of salvation.
Now you mention the various condemnations of St. Athanasius by the Arians and, separately, by Pope Liberius. With regard to the Arians, what authority did they have to condemn Athanasius? Isn’t their position the same as those women who recently were “ordained” to the Catholic priesthood? Regardless of the women’s acts or claims, no ordination took place because the Catholic Church “has no authority to confer priestly ordination on women” (John Paul II, Ordinatio Sacerdotalis). In like manner, the Arian councils had no authority to condemn Athanasius as a heretic — themselves being heretics and therefore without authority in the Catholic Church.
Pope Liberius signs a condemnation of Athanasius--this was after two years of exile, and probably under torture. I do note that Liberius was in exile for two years and probably tortured at the time--but still, he signed a heretical document!
As I explained earlier, a disciplinary document by its very nature cannot be infallible; neither can it be heretical, because it does not treat of faith or morals, but of a person. Besides, the fact that Liberius was under duress and due process was not allowed means that the document he was made to sign is null. So this is in every way a false accusation.
In conclusion, the Protestant writer whose arguments you present hasn’t done his homework. He is mistaken about the nature, purpose, scope and method of authority in the Catholic Church, and his specific assertions concerning infallibility do not even take into account the Catholic Church’s own definition of this charism.
David
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youngone88 Member
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Posted: Wed Jul 23rd, 2008 06:53 pm |
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Thank you very much, sir! I appreciate the in depth response.
I think I understand the Athanasius thing a lot better now. A Christian who knew what was going on would've known not to follow those robber councils and false doctrines.
I also think I understand infallibility a lot better now.
I'm still a little unsure about the argument about the infallible list of popes/infallible teachings. I realize there is a huge difference between this and the need for an infallible canon, but I think the guy is arguing that... if we are so insistent that the Protestants be infallibly sure of their canon in order to know their doctrine, then we too should be infallibly sure of which popes were popes and which teachings are trustworthy.
As I think about it more...It seems like the argument fails. Your explanation of authority and our need to trust the Church kind of defeats the need for a list of infallible teachings (since we should follow all the teachings anyway), and I can't think of anybody besides the pope who could credibly claim to be the true pope.
All these arguments get confusing for a seeker sometimes.
Last edited on Wed Jul 23rd, 2008 06:54 pm by youngone88
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Dave Armstrong Network Apologist

| Joined: | Fri Nov 2nd, 2007 |
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Posted: Wed Jul 23rd, 2008 09:15 pm |
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Hi Stephen,
I've gotten into some dialogues on similar subject matter:
Dialogue on the Logic of Catholic Infallible Authority (vs. Eric Svendsen)
Where Can One Find a List of Infallible Catholic Doctrines?
And here's a quick way to demonstrate infallibility from the Bible:
Biblical Evidence for Papal and Church Infallibility
____________________ I'm happy to offer whatever theological & personal assistance I can. My blog, Biblical Evidence for Catholicism, contains 2000+ papers & web pages (absolutely free) & 16 apologetic books (for sale):
http://www.biblicalcatholic.com/
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Dave Armstrong Network Apologist

| Joined: | Fri Nov 2nd, 2007 |
| Location: | Melvindale, Michigan USA |
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Posted: Wed Jul 23rd, 2008 09:32 pm |
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As for Arianism and Athanasius, I think the source you cite was rather one-sided, even skewed. Here is the information that I have found:
Arianism held that Jesus was created by the Father. In trinitarian Christianity, Christ and the Holy Spirit are both equal to, uncreated, and co-eternal with God the Father. Arius (c.256-336), the heresiarch, was based in Alexandria and died in Constantinople. In a Council at Antioch in 341, the majority of 97 Eastern bishops subscribed to a form of semi-Arianism, whereas in a Council at Rome in the same year, under Pope Julius I, the trinitarian St. Athanasius was vindicated by over 50 Italian bishops. The western-dominated Council of Sardica (Sofia) in 343 again upheld Athanasius' orthodoxy, whereas the eastern Council of Sirmium in 351 espoused Arianism, which in turn was rejected by the western Councils of Arles (353) and Milan (355).
It was the Church in the East that split off from the Catholic Church headed by Rome, during the Arian schisms: from 343 to 398. Rome never espoused the Arian heresy. Many patriarchs in the East did, however;
Antioch Euphronius c.327-c.329
Constantinople Eusebius c.341-42
Constantinople Macedonius c.342-60 (Semi-Arian)
Antioch Leontius 344-58
Alexandria George 357-61
Antioch Eudoxius 358-60
Constantinople Eudoxius 360
Antioch Euzoius 361-78
As to the oft-mentioned Pope Liberius incident, this is mnore complex than is often made out by our detractors. If you really want to delve into it, here are two good sources:
Catholic Encyclopedia: "Pope Liberius"
"The Alleged Fall of Pope Liberius," P.J. Harrold
So how did one determine orthodoxy during the early centuries? As always, it was whatever Rome held. The fifth century (when the Monophysite heresy ran rampant) provides a classic example of how this worked:
The Robber Synod (449) and the Henoticon (482)
Furthermore, essentially the entire Eastern Church seriously missed the mark doctrinally on at least two occasions: the "Robber Synod" at Ephesus in 449, and in the signing of the Monophysite Henoticon of Emperor Zeno in 482. The record of heresy in the East, then, could scarcely be more sobering for those Orthodox polemicists who are deliberately and proudly anti-ecumenical and anti-Catholic. For those who hold to the Universal Church, which has always included both East and West, this poses no difficulty, because Rome, the popes, and the West were there all along to maintain and champion orthodoxy.
Cardinal Newman's Analysis of 5th-Century Eastern Apostasy
John Henry Cardinal Newman commented on these two (thankfully temporary) massive Eastern apostasies, in a striking and eloquent passage from his famous Essay on the Development of Christian Doctrine (1878 ed., Part II, chap. 6, sec. 3; emphasis added):
Eutyches [a Monophysite] was supported by the Imperial Court, and by Dioscorus the Patriarch of Alexandria . . . A general Council was summoned for the ensuing summer at Ephesus [in 449] . . . It was attended by sixty metropolitans, ten from each of the great divisions of the East; the whole number of bishops assembled amounted to one hundred and thirty-five . . . St. Leo [the Great, Pope], dissatisfied with the measure altogether, nevertheless sent his legates, but with the object . . . of "condemning the heresy, and reinstating Eutyches if he retracted" . . .
The proceedings which followed were of so violent a character, that the Council has gone down to posterity under the name of the Latrocinium or "Gang of Robbers." Eutyches was honourably acquitted, and his doctrine received . . . which seems to have been the spontaneous act of the assembled Fathers. The proceedings ended by Dioscorus excommunicating the Pope, and the Emperor issuing an edict in approval of the decision of the Council . . .
The Council seems to have been unanimous, with the exception of the Pope's legates, in the restoration of Eutyches; a more complete decision can hardly be imagined. It is true the whole number of signatures now extant, one hundred and eight, may seem small out of a thousand, the number of Sees in the East; but the attendance of Councils always bore a representative character. The whole number of East and West was about eighteen hundred, yet the second Ecumenical Council was attended by only one hundred and fifty, which is but a twelfth part of the whole number; the Third Council by about two hundred, or a ninth; the Council of Nicaea itself numbered only three hundred and eighteen Bishops.
Moreover, when we look through the names subscribed to the Synodal decision, we find that the misbelief, or misapprehension, or weakness, to which this great offence must be attributed, was no local phenomenon, but the unanimous sin of Bishops in every patriarchate and of every school of the East. Three out of the four patriarchs were in favour of the heresiarch, the fourth being on his trial. Of these Domnus of Antioch and Juvenal of Jerusalem acquitted him, on the ground of his confessing the faith of Nicaea and Ephesus . . . Dioscorus . . . was on this occasion supported by those Churches which had so nobly stood by their patriarch Athanasius in the great Arian conflict. These three Patriarchs were supported by the Exarchs of Ephesus and Caesarea in Cappadocia; and both of these as well as Domnus and Juvenal, were supported in turn by their subordinate Metropolitans. Even the Sees under the influence of Constantinople, which was the remaining sixth division of the East, took part with Eutyches . . .
Such was the state of Eastern Christendom in the year 449; a heresy, appealing to the Fathers, to the Creed, and, above all, to Scripture, was by a general Council, professing to be Ecumenical, received as true in the person of its promulgator. If the East could determine a matter of faith independently of the West, certainly the Monophysite heresy was established as Apostolic truth in all its provinces from Macedonia to Egypt . . .
At length the Imperial Government, . . . came to the conclusion that the only way of restoring peace to the Church was to abandon the Council of Chalcedon. In the year 482 was published the famous Henoticon or Pacification of Zeno, in which the Emperor took upon himself to determine a matter of faith. The Henoticon declared that no symbol of faith but that of the Nicene Creed, commonly so called, should be received in the Churches; it anathematized the opposite heresies of Nestorius and Eutyches, and it was silent on the question of the "One" or "Two Natures" after the Incarnation . . . All the Eastern Bishops signed this Imperial formulary. But this unanimity of the East was purchased by a breach with the West; for the Popes cut off the communication between Greeks and Latins for thirty-five years . . .
Dreary and waste was the condition of the Church, and forlorn her prospects, at the period which we have been reviewing . . . There was but one spot in the whole of Christendom, one voice in the whole Episcopate, to which the faithful turned in hope in that miserable day. In the year 493, in the Pontificate of Gelasius, the whole of the East was in the hands of traitors to Chalcedon, and the whole of the West under the tyranny of the open enemies of Nicaea . . .
A formula which the Creed did not contain [Leo's Tome at the Council of Chalcedon in 451], which the Fathers did not unanimously witness, and which some eminent Saints had almost in set terms opposed, which the whole East refused as a symbol, not once, but twice, patriarch by patriarch, metropolitan by metropolitan, first by the mouth of above a hundred, then by the mouth of above six hundred of its Bishops, and refused upon the grounds of its being an addition to the Creed, was forced upon the Council . . . by the resolution of the Pope of the day, acting through his Legates and supported by the civil power.
____________________ I'm happy to offer whatever theological & personal assistance I can. My blog, Biblical Evidence for Catholicism, contains 2000+ papers & web pages (absolutely free) & 16 apologetic books (for sale):
http://www.biblicalcatholic.com/
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