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cyanheaven
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Posted: Mon Jul 7th, 2008 02:58 pm |
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I was going to post this question in the Did You Know Forum, but I apparently do not have access to that function there.
I was introduced to a priest from the Legionaries of Christ this past weekend. Apparently my fiance's family is associated with Christi Regnum the lay group in association and support of the order. Very interesting structure and concept to have an order separate from that of the diocese. I was wondering what thoughts there were on the forum about this group. Also are their any other priestly orders like this that have been established apart from the diocesan structure?
Callie
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CajunRick
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Posted: Mon Jul 7th, 2008 03:29 pm |
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cyanheaven wrote: I was going to post this question in the Did You Know Forum, but I apparently do not have access to that function there.
"Did You Know?" is not a forum for questions but for things you didn't know you didn't know, sort of a "Catholic trivia" section. Only moderators can begin a new topic in that area. Users are encouraged to post in all other areas, and the moderators will move the topic to the "Did You Know" section if it is appropriate.
I was introduced to a priest from the Legionaries of Christ this past weekend. Apparently my fiance's family is associated with Christi Regnum the lay group in association and support of the order. Very interesting structure and concept to have an order separate from that of the diocese. I was wondering what thoughts there were on the forum about this group. Also are their any other priestly orders like this that have been established apart from the diocesan structure?
There are two types of priests, diocesan and religious. Diocesan priests are employed in a particular diocese, draw a salary, own property, pay retirement, etc. They take a vow of celibacy and an annual pledge of obedience to their bishop, who can move them to another parish or position within the diocese. A priest who has a problem in a particular diocese (not an abuse issue but perhaps an obedience issue, or the inability to get along with a pastor or bishop) may, with permission of both bishops, seek employment in another diocese.
Religious priests belong to a certain religious order (Franciscans, Benedictines, Redemptorists, Jesuits, etc.). They take solemn vows of chastity, poverty and obedience, similar to those taken by nuns and religious brothers. They are loyal to their order, which can literally send them anywhere in the world. They generally do not draw a salary or own property. Their order is responsible for their retirement, medical care, etc. Sometimes their order assigns them to staff a parish within a local diocese, in which case they are obedient to both the superior of their order and to their diocesan bishop.
Then there are diocesan priests who have been given permission to operate a ministry separate from the diocese. Many conduct retreats or are engaged in other ministries, such as the pro-life ministry of Fr. Frank Pavone.
So it's not at all unusual for a priest to be separated from a diocese although, if he is a diocesan priest, he can be recalled to the diocese at any time. He is still subject to a vow of obedience to his bishop, as a religious priest is subject to a vow of obedience to his order.
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Rick Luquette
Luquette Lane
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cyanheaven
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Posted: Mon Jul 7th, 2008 04:07 pm |
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Thanks for this Rick.
Do you know anything about this order specifically? They are rather new, as far as orders go, their founder died earlier this decade infact. Other than the basics, vow of poverty and strong emphasis on academics and missions, the only thing i know about them is that they are very transient, and (like the Jesuits) answer to the Pope directly.
Thanks!
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CajunRick
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Posted: Mon Jul 7th, 2008 04:57 pm |
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cyanheaven wrote: Do you know anything about this order specifically? They are rather new, as far as orders go, their founder died earlier this decade infact.
I really don't know very much about them. Sorry.
Other than the basics, vow of poverty and strong emphasis on academics and missions, the only thing i know about them is that they are very transient, and (like the Jesuits) answer to the Pope directly.
All religious orders answer directly to Rome, but their actions within a given diocese are subject to the wishes of the local bishop also. That goes for the Franciscans, Benedictines, Jesuits, etc. Also, orders elect their own superiors which must then be ratified by Rome. They create their own rules, subject to Vatican approval. So this is not by any means an unusual situation.
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Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
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MitchyMitch
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Posted: Mon Jul 7th, 2008 07:33 pm |
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| I found out that my church is a missions church in the order of La Sallette. La Sallette priests do not take a vow of poverty - which was rather interesting.
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Mitch
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Dave Armstrong
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Posted: Wed Jul 9th, 2008 06:13 pm |
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All religious orders answer directly to Rome, but their actions within a given diocese are subject to the wishes of the local bishop also. That goes for the Franciscans, Benedictines, Jesuits, etc. Also, orders elect their own superiors which must then be ratified by Rome. They create their own rules, subject to Vatican approval.
Not to nitpick, but this is not technically, factually correct and should be qualified. I did not know this (this isn't the type of thing I know much about!), but it was brought to my attention by someone else.
Some orders which are “of papal right” (e.g., the Legionaries of Christ), but others (perhaps the majority?) are diocesan, under the authority of the local bishop.
Oner way we know this is the notion of "pontifical right," whereby institutes or orders or religious communities apply to the Congregation for Religious and Secular Institutes in order to be directly under the jurisdiction of the Holy See, rather than a diocesan bishop. Obviously, if this is achieved by application and selection, then it is not true of all religious orders. Those not under pontifical right are under the local jurisdiction of "diocesan right." Here is a PDF "legal"-type document that draws this very distinction between different sorts of orders. The New Commentary on the Code of Canon Law does the same (see Canon 589)
As a concrete example, Mother Teresa's Missionaries of Charity became a Society of Pontifical Right in 1965. But it had formerly received Vatican permission as an order under the Calcutta diocese in October 1957.
Another illustrative example is the Christian Life Movement (CLM): a lay group founded by Peruvian Luis Fernando Figari in 1985. It received pontifical right status in 1994.
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CajunRick
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Posted: Wed Jul 9th, 2008 06:27 pm |
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Dave Armstrong wrote:
Not to nitpick, but this is not technically, factually correct and should be qualified. I did not know this (this isn't the type of thing I know much about!), but it was brought to my attention by someone else.
I knew the difference, Dave, but I also didn't want to get that nitpicky. Even organizations of pontifical right, if they are truly Christian organizations, will not attempt to circumvent or supersede the office of the local ordinary, so the result is that they are answerable to both the Holy See and the local ordinary in all functional matters. Matters of structure and governance, in my opinion, were beyond the scope of the original question.
As a practical matter, a bishop may not approve the creation of a religious order without consultation with the Holy See. A religious order created by pontifical right will not operate within a diocese without consent of the local bishop. Religious priests of an order of pontifical right do not have have faculties in a diocese outside of the institutes of their own order unless granted by the local bishop. As an average Catholic, there is little real, functional difference between the two. The differences are in governing structure, not in ministry or effect.
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Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
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cyanheaven
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Posted: Wed Jul 9th, 2008 07:00 pm |
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Thanks for this clarification, this nitpicking was exactly what I was asking about.  Keep it up guys!
Thanks to Dave for clarifying their difference more deeply and to Rick for spelling out how they would still function in regards to the local authority of the Bishop. My fiance's family is close to this organization, including the lay ministry associated with it, and I have found resulting in very interesting reading. So this framework of understanding will help me put other things I read into perspective.
***
On a purely personal note: would diocesian right priests be able (easily) to act as celebrant for a wedding in a neighboring diocese? I am assuming this would be much easier for a pontifical right priest. This probably wont happen due to other complications of our situation, namely mine, but I am still curious how that would work in regards to what Rick brought to the discussion.
Last edited on Wed Jul 9th, 2008 07:01 pm by cyanheaven
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Dave Armstrong
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Posted: Wed Jul 9th, 2008 07:00 pm |
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I don't think it's a huge deal, either, but it is relevant to this thread, since Callie in the first post asked: "Also are their any other priestly orders like this that have been established apart from the diocesan structure?" Also note the original sub-title (before I added to it).
Also, stating, "All religious orders answer directly to Rome" is arguably confusing in light of the facts brought to light. So I thought it was important enough (for the sake of accuracy and precision) to clarify this factual matter. As I said, it was brought to my attention. I wouldn't have known one way or the other before that.
Learn sumpin' every day . . .!
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Tina in Ashburn
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Posted: Fri Jul 11th, 2008 02:07 am |
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The Legionaries have an unfortunate reputation with some folks. I am aware of one good priest here in this diocese that will not allow Regnum Christi in his parish. He chooses to maintain control of his parish and has asked the group to leave whatever parish he runs.
A nearby parish has a very active Regnum Christi and they appear to be running many things in the parish from the Women's Group to who leads the rosary after Mass. My impression is that the group here is not docile to the direction of the parish priest.
This is my experience just locally here, can't say how other groups in other areas behave.
Fr. Maciel, the Founder of this group was the most prominent Roman Catholic Church official to be disciplined by the Vatican for alleged involvement in child sexual abuse. Pope Benedict ordered the Rev. Marcial Maciel's removal from his ministry and to spend the rest of his life in prayer and penitence.
Recently, Archbishop Edwin O'Brien of Baltimore has placed the movement under a heightened level of oversight. "the group's leader, Fr Álvaro Corcuera Martinez del Rio, was asked to name a priest to serve as liaison between the communities and the archbishop's office, subject to approval by O'Brien. The liaison is required to provide coordinates for every Legion priest serving in the 525,000-member archdiocese; detailed information on every Regnum Christi branch within its boundaries, including "activities, meeting locations and schedules, membership rolls and methodologies for gaining new members"; each RC youth program operating in Baltimore, and a full disclosure of every other LoC/RC apostolate active in the archdiocese. By the same date, each pastor whose parish has one of the groups' works on its territory is to receive a "full written" briefing on their activities there."
Given longstanding criticism from some quarters of the Legion's recruitment methods, the most significant part of the new norms deals with the movement's outreach to the young as potential priests.
Baltimore isn't the first U.S. diocese to increase vigilence over the communities. Several local churches have enacted similar policies to O'Brien's over the last decade; most prominently, in late 2004 then-Archbishop Harry Flynn of St Paul and Minneapolis effectively banned the LoC/RC from "being active in any way" in the Twin Cities.
Its constitutions originally approved by the Holy See in 1983, in recent months foreign press reports indicated that the Legion's practice of "secret vows" -- including one to not criticize the judgments or acts of a superior -- has been dissolved at the personal behest of Pope Benedict.
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Tina
Arlington Diocese
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David W. Emery
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Posted: Fri Jul 11th, 2008 04:10 am |
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The Legionaries have an unfortunate reputation with some folks.
While what you report, Tina, is indeed making the rounds (and certain facts are verifiable), we have to ask ourselves how much of what we hear is gossip and people running scared from an image painted by someone who doesn’t have all the facts. We don’t want to see another “priest scandal” with media witch hunts and legal sharks playing games with dioceses to amass a personal fortune. We don’t allow evil that good may come of it.
There are individual members of good orders whose lives are reprehensible, and there are individual members of depraved orders whose lives are saintly. So I would not want to characterize any individual member by what goes on around him. Nor would I want to characterize an entire religious order by the lives of a small proportion of its members. When we have sufficient facts, perhaps a safe judgment can be made; for now, I don’t think we have that right.
David
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Tina in Ashburn
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Posted: Fri Jul 11th, 2008 02:49 pm |
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Thanks for the clarification David. You are right, I didn't mean to disparage any of the good souls in the organization, and I should have stated that.
So many good souls are tainted by the reprehensible behavior of others, its like having a criminal in the family. The members suffer so from the indirect association when they themselves have done nothing wrong.
The group has not been disbanded however, I think that its a fair statement to say that the Vatican is helping them to improve certain behaviors, and there is a bit of mistrust.
I hope that the actions of our Pope in regard to this organization ultimately tells us what we need to know.
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Tina
Arlington Diocese
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cyanheaven
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Posted: Fri Jul 11th, 2008 03:56 pm |
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I have definatly heard the a comment concerning distrust between diocean right priests for those of the Legionaries. And while I am not attempting to gloss over any offenses, I did recieve the impression at the time that some of the distrust stemed from their structure of athority apart from the diocese. For an organization that thrives on structure having two individuals at the same level with different restrictions placed upon them and opportunities placed on them has the potential for the very human reaction of resentment or distrust.
Not that I know the whole story of course, just a thought to add.
Callie
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