 |
| Author | Post |
|---|
New Creation
Member
| Joined: | Thu Nov 22nd, 2007 |
| Location: | |
| Posts: | 45 |
| First Name: | Paula | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | wicca 9 yrs, Anglican 5 yrs, RCIA now! |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Tue Dec 11th, 2007 02:10 am |
|
| My husband and I left our beloved congregation at our Anglican church yesterday to come home to the Catholic church. My husband is already Catholic and I am in RCIA. My husband told our pastor that one of the reasons was because of the importance of apostolic succession. The pastor, however, claimed that it was there in the Anglica church going all the way back to Rome. Didnt' it stop when Henry the 8th started appointing Bishops instead of the Pope? I'm pretty ignorant here....enlighten me!
____________________
always a seeker
|
|
|
CajunRick
Network Helper
| Joined: | Fri Sep 29th, 2006 |
| Location: | Houma, Louisiana USA |
| Posts: | 5101 |
| First Name: | Rick (& Kermie) | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Lifetime Catholic, Latin Rite |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Tue Dec 11th, 2007 09:15 am |
|
New Creation wrote: The pastor, however, claimed that it was there in the Anglica church going all the way back to Rome. Didnt' it stop when Henry the 8th started appointing Bishops instead of the Pope? I am descended from Julius Caesar and therefore I am the rightful emperor of all of Europe, the Middle East, and northern Africa. Prove me wrong. Since you can't, I command you to kneel before me as you pay your taxes, under pain of death.
Saying it doesn't make it so. If you are going to say it's present in Anglicanism, then it's equally present in every Christian denomination, Islam, Mormonism, the Jehovah's Witnesses, and every other faith that is descended in some way from Christianity. At one point, their faith ancestors were all Catholic.
The true Church is one, holy, catholic, and apostolic. The Anglican break was not a true schism like the split between the Catholics and the Orthodox. It was a break away from the oneness of the faith. A secular power (the king) took authority often by force, which was not a very holy act. And power was usurped from the legitimate apostolic authority, the patriarch of the west, the pope.
An argument could be made that the Anglican faith maintained catholicity and even holiness (in spite of it's quite secular reason for existence), but definitely broke away from the oneness of the true Church and the apostolic authoriy behind it.
____________________
Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
Luquette Lane
|
|
|
Ali
Member
| Joined: | Sat Jan 6th, 2007 |
| Location: | Ohio USA |
| Posts: | 660 |
| First Name: | Ali | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | JW, finally fully Catholic |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Tue Dec 11th, 2007 09:22 am |
|
It's so hard to argue points like this. Rick's post is an excellent example why. People choose what they want to believe. They *really* think they are right and there is no telling them they are wrong.
That is, until they are ready to let go and believe.
Ali
|
|
|
DrDave
Member
| Joined: | Mon Nov 6th, 2006 |
| Location: | Mildura, Australia |
| Posts: | 217 |
| First Name: | Dave | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Cradle - Lapsed - Renewed Catholic |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Wed Dec 12th, 2007 08:00 pm |
|
The problem inherent in almost all Catholic Protestant Dialogue is that we each use a different dictionary. If you were to ask your former pastor to define "apostolic succession" he would almost certainly come up with a definition of "apostolic succession" that differs significantly from ours. The alternative to this is that he is simply ignorant of his own history.
Regards Dave
|
|
|
Tina in Ashburn
Member
| Joined: | Mon May 21st, 2007 |
| Location: | Ashburn, Virginia USA |
| Posts: | 272 |
| First Name: | Tina | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Cradle Roman Catholic, Ukranian Catholic, presently practicing as Roman Latin ... |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Mon Dec 17th, 2007 01:34 pm |
|
'Non-papal' Catholicism cut off Henry VIII's church from Papal authority, and thus separates downstream any possibility of succession.
And what about the ordination thing? Didn't that put an end to the succession argument too? Wasn't there a point in time where the words of Anglican ordination were deemed by the Catholic Church to be inadequate? One of the short-comings of their ordination rite was the lack of specificity - like the purpose of the priest is to confect the Eucharist.
Until the rite was changed to "the Edwardine Ordinal", priests were still being validly, though illicitly, ordained by the existing episcopate.
Oh here... I paraphrased something I found:
Pope Leo XIII's Papal Bull Apostolicae Curae, issued on September 15, 1896, states that because of a defect in both form and intention, apostolic succession was not preserved in Anglican orders. In 1998, Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, as prefect of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, confirms this in his commentary on the Apostolic Letter Ad Tuendam Fidem ("To Protect the Faith") issued by His Holiness Pope John Paul II.
____________________
Tina
Arlington Diocese
|
|
|
JasPax
Member
| Joined: | Wed Nov 22nd, 2006 |
| Location: | North Carolina USA |
| Posts: | 214 |
| First Name: | James | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Episcopal to Catholic |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Sun Mar 23rd, 2008 06:08 pm |
|
Hello:
I have a question. I hope it is OK to tag onto this thread rather than start a new one. If not, give me at least a cyber-slap on the wrist.
Here it is: I know that Catholic Bishops can trace their Holy order "genealogy" backwards; i.e. who ordained the person who ordained them, etc. Do they have a written list all the way to the Apostles?
I also heard that there is a web site whereby we can put in a bishop's name, and view his predecessors. Anyone know that site?
Thanks in advance.
God's Blessings,
____________________
James
"Abide in me, and I in you..." John 15:4
"He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him." John 6:56
RSV-2CE
|
|
|
David W. Emery
Network Helper
| Joined: | Fri Sep 29th, 2006 |
| Location: | Brownsville, Texas USA |
| Posts: | 1805 |
| First Name: | David | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Catholic |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Sun Mar 23rd, 2008 07:24 pm |
|
Hi, James. Records of episcopal ordinations go back only to medieval times in most cases — if indeed that far, due to destruction of records by time, war and enemies of the Church. The only complete line we have is the one for the bishop of Rome. Since the bishop of Rome authorizes all episcopal ordinations within the Catholic Church, this would seem to resolve the apostolicity of the bishops in union with him.
I don’t know of any website that provides a list of predecessors for current Catholic bishops. In actuality, schismatic entities are much more interested in this sort of thing than Catholics, but the best they can do is go back to the Catholic Church for their legitimacy. Again, they may be able to say that so-and-so ordained their bishop, but the Catholic Church would also ask, “Under what circumstances? Was it a real ordination, or was it like so many historical Anglican ordinations, that lacked certain essentials, such as proper intent?” So a bishop’s “genealogy” is only part of the story.
For the Catholic Church, it’s mainly assumed that if the pope approved a man’s ordination as bishop, that ordination is legitimate and apostolic because he (the pope) has the genealogy and authority to prove it, so why bother with a genealogy for each and every bishop throughout history?
David
|
|
|
GoFisher
Member
| Joined: | Mon Dec 18th, 2006 |
| Location: | |
| Posts: | 111 |
| First Name: | Kathy | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Mth Cng Prs UM sang@RC Ep UM (MDiv) Word-Faith Charismatic-RC |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Thu May 8th, 2008 07:55 pm |
|
United Methodist pastor-sponsor during my ministry inquiry process showed me a framed chart that he received at his ordination, that tracks his own ordination through Apostolic succession via John Wesley, since he was an Anglican priest.
However, John Wesley formed Holy Clubs, he did NOT intend to form a new denomination. 
____________________
Love, hear + obey God: go fish! (me)
+ The Word became flesh... (St. John 1:14)
Ignorance of Scripture is ignorance of Christ. (St. Jerome)
+ Follow Me... fishers of men. (St. Matthew quotes The Lord Jesus)
|
|
|
Steven Barrett
Member
| Joined: | Tue Nov 14th, 2006 |
| Location: | Hadley, Massachusetts USA |
| Posts: | 804 |
| First Name: | Steven | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Catholic, Episcopal communicant, Baptist, Catholic |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Mon May 12th, 2008 02:46 am |
|
David you nailed it!
For the Catholic Church, it’s mainly assumed that if the pope approved a man’s ordination as bishop, that ordination is legitimate and apostolic because he (the pope) has the genealogy and authority to prove it, so why bother with a genealogy for each and every bishop throughout history?
It all goes back to Christ and the steps He took to make sure His Church would stand the test of time. Despite all our hardest efforts, we haven't been able to either undo or come up with anything better.
When Protestants broke from the Church (in their various ways for various reasons throughout Europe and especially over here where new denominations/sects/so-called "Bible Churches" are started weekly) they created that inevitable treadmill that keeps pushing them towards trying every new theological fad, "exciting development," trend ... you name it and them. They're always finding themselves reinventing one theological wheel after another. And it's such a fruitless waste of energy and time.
Yet, the answer to their problems and constant searches for that one thing, that one special theological principle, is right before their eyes in Matthew 20 when Jesus passed the keys to St. Peter and formed the Church upon St. Peter's rocklike faith.
Now that we can think about it: should it have surprised anyone that a denomination came out of what was originally known to be Wesley's "Holy Clubs"? Not quite, nor more than I'd discount a serious movement within evangelical Protestant mens' groups centering around David's "mighty men" group of the first Israeli commandos. "Mighty Men" will spawn "mighty women" and who knows where that might lead off to. Maybe the terminology will change (hope so! it sounds so campy) -- but not the guiding principle. Sadly, it's a far cry from the meeklike quality Jesus had prayed for in his original Apostolic Fathers.
Let 'em have their paper popes and neighborhood small-group magisteriums, often led by people with little or no theological training whatsoever. But one day, when confusion hits 'em between the eyes, they'll be reaching out for anything they can find meaning from; even something written by a man named Karol or Joseph.
____________________
For anyone suffering from a mental illness or has a loved one with a mental illness, my book "Lead kindly Light: A Devotional For The Mentally Ill" might be of some help: http://www.lulu.com/ (Use search box at the top of page.)
|
|
|
Steven Barrett
Member
| Joined: | Tue Nov 14th, 2006 |
| Location: | Hadley, Massachusetts USA |
| Posts: | 804 |
| First Name: | Steven | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Catholic, Episcopal communicant, Baptist, Catholic |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Mon May 12th, 2008 02:59 am |
|
I also heard that there is a web site whereby we can put in a bishop's name, and view his predecessors. Anyone know that site?
James, I'm not sure about the site you're asking about, but one time I checked out the history of one of the first Episcopalian bishops in western Massachusetts, only because the guy's one of my "next door neighbors." He's very quiet, doesn't raise a fuss, say a howlin' sermon on Halloween, but he is buried in the ye olde and ancient Hadleigh towne cemetery, c. 1650s.
Good thing for him that he didn't know I was doing a background check. While I don't have all the "particulars" at hand, apparently this guy's theological genealogy had a bad habit of wanderlust. Like many Protestants, he was always looking for that "key" to discovering the hidden northwest passage to Heaven's Gate in theological terms and happiness.
Of course, had he been a little more intrepid like a former English Anglican priest across the pond, and did a little more homework on his C of E beginnings, he might've gotten deeper into history.
Well, WE AT LEAST know where that leads to. He didn't and he blew it. And lookit whom he shares the same street with? 
____________________
For anyone suffering from a mental illness or has a loved one with a mental illness, my book "Lead kindly Light: A Devotional For The Mentally Ill" might be of some help: http://www.lulu.com/ (Use search box at the top of page.)
|
|
|
Steven Barrett
Member
| Joined: | Tue Nov 14th, 2006 |
| Location: | Hadley, Massachusetts USA |
| Posts: | 804 |
| First Name: | Steven | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Catholic, Episcopal communicant, Baptist, Catholic |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Mon May 12th, 2008 03:06 am |
|
I am descended from Julius Caesar
Cajunrick, you mean you're Eyetalian not French? or Cajun?
And I thought all along it was Vercengetroix, Charles Martel, Pepin, Charlemange, Louis XIV, Lafayette, the Bonapartes, General Beauregard, Clemenceau, and Charles DeGaulle. 
PS: I know you were trying to make a rhetorical point: But man, you started that sentence off in a way that only an Al Haig, Douglas MacArthur or George Patton could shed tears over.
Last edited on Mon May 12th, 2008 03:12 am by Steven Barrett
____________________
For anyone suffering from a mental illness or has a loved one with a mental illness, my book "Lead kindly Light: A Devotional For The Mentally Ill" might be of some help: http://www.lulu.com/ (Use search box at the top of page.)
|
|
|
CajunRick
Network Helper
| Joined: | Fri Sep 29th, 2006 |
| Location: | Houma, Louisiana USA |
| Posts: | 5101 |
| First Name: | Rick (& Kermie) | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Lifetime Catholic, Latin Rite |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Mon May 12th, 2008 03:42 am |
|
Steven Barrett wrote: I am descended from Julius Caesar
Cajunrick, you mean you're Eyetalian not French? or Cajun?
Are you claiming Caesar was celibate during the Gallic Wars?
____________________
Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
Luquette Lane
|
|
|
DrDave
Member
| Joined: | Mon Nov 6th, 2006 |
| Location: | Mildura, Australia |
| Posts: | 217 |
| First Name: | Dave | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Cradle - Lapsed - Renewed Catholic |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Mon May 12th, 2008 04:20 am |
|
JasPax wrote: I also heard that there is a web site whereby we can put in a bishop's name, and view his predecessors. Anyone know that site?
I think this might be the site you're looking for.
Regards Doc
|
|
|
Free
Member
| Joined: | Wed Nov 28th, 2007 |
| Location: | Michigan USA |
| Posts: | 159 |
| First Name: | Jane | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Presbyterian, Gnostic, non-denominational, Catholic |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Mon May 12th, 2008 10:49 am |
|
If your diocese has a website, you might find a link there for your own bishop's line of descent. I know our diocese has that link, plus you can look up any other bishops, too.
|
|
|
Dave Armstrong
Network Apologist
| Joined: | Fri Nov 2nd, 2007 |
| Location: | Melvindale, Michigan USA |
| Posts: | 1438 |
| First Name: | Dave | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Evangelical "Jesus Freak" (Arminian) / "Lewisian Schaefferite" / Catholic |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Mon May 12th, 2008 06:46 pm |
|
Hi Paula,
I just compiled some articles on this topic in another thread, but I'll link to the post on my blog because it is more direct.
____________________
I'm happy to offer whatever theological & personal assistance I can. My blog, Biblical Evidence for Catholicism, contains 1900+ papers & web pages (absolutely free) & 16 apologetic books (for sale):
http://www.biblicalcatholic.com/
|
|
|
Steven Barrett
Member
| Joined: | Tue Nov 14th, 2006 |
| Location: | Hadley, Massachusetts USA |
| Posts: | 804 |
| First Name: | Steven | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Catholic, Episcopal communicant, Baptist, Catholic |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Tue May 13th, 2008 12:27 am |
|
 You're good, as a former prez from the state to the north of you would say, you're good, man.
I bet Julius wasn't celibate by a long trebuchet shot. Just like my former "neighbor" Union General Joseph "Fightin' Joe" Hooker, of Chancellorsville 'fame,' Jules always found time to make sure he never confused the word celebrate with celibate (or after a few slashes of wine, or whiskey, respectively) -- the other way around.
But, I'll readily grant Julius enjoyed a much better win/loss record than Hadley's most "famous" son of note.
Ciao
____________________
For anyone suffering from a mental illness or has a loved one with a mental illness, my book "Lead kindly Light: A Devotional For The Mentally Ill" might be of some help: http://www.lulu.com/ (Use search box at the top of page.)
|
|
|
Current time is 10:43 am | |
|
|
|
|
|
