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Dave Armstrong Network Apologist

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Posted: Thu Nov 8th, 2007 04:10 pm |
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Galileo Galilei (1564-1642)
From my book, The One-Minute Apologist:
THE CHURCH
The Galileo incident proves that the Catholic Church isn't infallible
It also shows that Catholicism opposes science due to its Aristotelian dogmatism
Initial reply
The Church's often misunderstood erroneous proclamations on Galileo do not overthrow the doctrine of infallibility, once the facts are properly scrutinized.
Extensive reply
The censure of the astronomer Galileo (1564-1642) in 1616 and 1633 may be the most notorious and famous Catholic error ever made, and the favorite (myth-filled) tale of those who believe religion and science are inexorably opposed. Catholic dogma had never enshrined geocentrism, and Galileo (a faithful Catholic) had been supported by many notable churchmen, including three popes. Indeed, his biographer Giorgio de Santillana stated that "It has been known for a long time that a major part of the church intellectuals were on the side of Galileo, while the clearest opposition to him came from secular ideas" (The Crime of Galileo, University of Chicago Press, 1955, xii-xiii). But the scientist (though basically correct) was overconfident and quite obstinate in proclaiming his scientific theory as absolute truth, and this was a major concern. Accordingly, St. Robert Bellarmine, who was directly involved in the controversy, made it clear that heliocentrism was not irreversibly condemned, and also that a not-yet proven theory was not an unassailable fact. Bellarmine actually had the superior understanding of the nature of a scientific hypothesis. Galileo was scientifically fallible, too. He held that the entire universe revolved around the sun in circular (not elliptical) orbits, and that tides were caused by the rotation of the earth. True heliocentrism wasn’t conclusively proven until some 200 years later. Pope John Paul II apologized for the Church's mistake, but the Holy Office had done so in 1825, and Galileo's written works were permitted in 1741.
Far more embarrassing and numerous "Bible vs. Science" fiascoes in the Protestant world are not nearly as well-known. Martin Luther called Copernicus an "upstart astrologer" in 1539, appealing to Joshua 10:13 as proof that the sun moves. His successor Philip Melanchthon thought that Copernicus exhibited a lack of "honesty and decency," yet was an avid enthusiast of astrology. John Calvin "proved" geocentrism from Psalm 93:1, and contended that belief in a rotating earth would "pervert the order of nature." Francois Turretin, John Owen, and many Puritans followed suit. Catholic philosophers, on the other hand, like Nicholas Oresme (c.1325-1382) and Nicholas of Cusa (1401-1464) had long since posited a moving earth, and the sphericity of the earth had been taught even earlier by St. Albert the Great, St. Thomas Aquinas, and Dante. The Protestant University of Tubingen condemned the heliocentrism of the great Lutheran astronomer Johann Kepler (1571-1630), not long before the Galileo incident. Leibniz, the Lutheran philosopher (1646-1716) attacked Newton's theory of gravitation.
Objection
But wasn't Galileo also imprisoned and tortured by the Inquisition, in order to get him to recant his theory?
Reply to Objection
In 1633 Galileo was "incarcerated" in the palace of Niccolini, the ambassador to the Vatican from Tuscany, who admired Galileo, spent five months with Archbishop Piccolomini in Siena, and then lived in comfortable environments with friends for the rest of his life (though technically under "house arrest"). No evidence exists to prove that he was ever actually subjected to torture or deliberately blinded (he lost his sight in 1637).
The Catholic Encyclopedia
t was a churchman, Nicholas Copernicus, who first advanced the contrary doctrine that the sun and not the earth is the centre of our system, round which our planet revolves, rotating on its own axis. His great work, De Revolutionibus orblure coelestium, was published at the earnest solicitation of two distinguished churchmen, Cardinal Schomberg and Tiedemann Giese, Bishop of Culm. It was dedicated by permission to Pope Paul III in order, as Copernicus explained, that it might be thus protected from the attacks which it was sure to encounter on the part of the "mathematicians" (i.e. philosophers) . . . Neither Paul III, nor any of the nine popes who followed him, nor the Roman Congregations raised any alarm . . . Can it be said that either Paul V or Urban VIII so committed himself to the doctrine of geocentricism as to impose it upon the Church as an article of faith, and so to teach as pope what is now acknowledged to be untrue? That both these pontiffs were convinced anti-Copernicans cannot be doubted, nor that they believed the Copernican system to be unscriptural and desired its suppression. The question is, however, whether either of them condemned the doctrine ex cathedra. This, it is clear, they never did. As to the decree of 1616, we have seen that it was issued by the Congregation of the Index, which can raise no difficulty in regard of infallibility, this tribunal being absolutely incompetent to make a dogmatic decree. Nor is the case altered by the fact that the pope approved the Congregation's decision in forma communi, that is to say, to the extent needful for the purpose intended, namely to prohibit the circulation of writings which were judged harmful. . . . As to the second trial in 1633, this was concerned not so much with the doctrine as with the person of Galileo, and his manifest breach of contract in not abstaining from the active propaganda of Copernican doctrines. The sentence, passed upon him in consequence, clearly implied a condemnation of Copernicanism, but it made no formal decree on the subject, and did not receive the pope's signature.
(Vol. VI, 1909, "Galileo Galilei," John Gerard)
Last edited on Thu Nov 8th, 2007 04:18 pm by Dave Armstrong
____________________ I'm happy to offer whatever theological & personal assistance I can. My blog, Biblical Evidence for Catholicism, contains 2000+ papers & web pages (absolutely free) & 16 apologetic books (for sale):
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CajunRick Network Helper

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Posted: Thu Nov 8th, 2007 10:43 pm |
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Dave Armstrong wrote: True heliocentrism wasn’t conclusively proven until some 200 years later.
I think it is remarkable that hundreds of years ago the discussion was whether the universe revolved around the sun or the earth. Today, finally, it has been conclusively proven that the universe actually revolves around Britney Spears.
____________________ Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
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DrDave Member

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Posted: Thu Nov 8th, 2007 11:14 pm |
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I have also heard it argued (can't remember where or by who) that the "Galileo" issue had more to do with his theology than his science.
The argument goes along the lines that Galileo asserted that his "proof" of heliocentrism disproves the Church's claim, based on an obviously inaccurate bible, that God is the author of all creation, rather that God was a product of creation.
If such is the case then the Church obviously had grounds for intervening, though it could be argued that it went a little overboard in it's denunciations.
Can anyone comment further, or offer any substantiation for this argument?
Regards Dave
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JillD Member

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Posted: Thu Nov 8th, 2007 11:37 pm |
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CajunRick wrote:
I think it is remarkable that hundreds of years ago the discussion was whether the universe revolved around the sun or the earth. Today, finally, it has been conclusively proven that the universe actually revolves around Britney Spears.
Thanks for a good laugh, Rick! I needed it!
____________________ "I praise you, for I am wondrously made. Wonderful are our works! My frame was not hidden from you, when I was being made in secret." Ps 139
"Guard me, O Lord, from the hands of the wicked; preserve me from violent men." Ps 140
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Cindy Member
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Posted: Fri Nov 9th, 2007 12:45 am |
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CajunRick wrote:
I think it is remarkable that hundreds of years ago the discussion was whether the universe revolved around the sun or the earth. Today, finally, it has been conclusively proven that the universe actually revolves around Britney Spears.
Hilarious!
____________________ The Lord is near to all who call upon Him, to all who call upon Him in Truth -- Psalm 145:18
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BodRod Member

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Posted: Fri Nov 9th, 2007 02:07 am |
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I thought the universe revolved around Paris Hilton. Have I been mislead??? 
____________________ Gratias agamus Domino Deo nostro.
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CajunRick Network Helper

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Posted: Fri Nov 9th, 2007 11:59 am |
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BodRod wrote: I thought the universe revolved around Paris Hilton. Have I been mislead??? 
That was last month. You've got to keep up!
____________________ Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
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BodRod Member

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Posted: Fri Nov 9th, 2007 12:23 pm |
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You must forgive me. Those of us who are 39 tend to move a little slower. 
____________________ Gratias agamus Domino Deo nostro.
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Dave Armstrong Network Apologist

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Posted: Fri Nov 9th, 2007 12:59 pm |
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Funny, Rick!
To answer Dave:
I hadn't heard that claim before. As far as I know, Galileo was essentially an orthodox Catholic, but he was overzealous in his scientific proclamations. I delve into the matter in greater detail in these papers:
Dialogue on the Galileo Fiasco and Plea for Better Understanding of the Church's Error, Given the State of Scientific and Astronomical Knowledge in 1633
Why the Galileo Case Doesn't Disprove Catholic Infallibility, Rightly-Understood / Sola Scriptura Redux
See also related stuff:
"Science vs. Religion" Chronicles: 16th-17th Century Astronomers' Simultaneous Acceptance of Astrology (+ Part Two)
Early Protestant Hostility Towards Science
The Strong Enthusiasm For Astrology of Early Lutheran Luminaries Philip Melanchthon and Martin Chemnitz
Last edited on Fri Nov 9th, 2007 01:00 pm by Dave Armstrong
____________________ I'm happy to offer whatever theological & personal assistance I can. My blog, Biblical Evidence for Catholicism, contains 2000+ papers & web pages (absolutely free) & 16 apologetic books (for sale):
http://www.biblicalcatholic.com/
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Credo Catholic Member

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Posted: Wed Mar 19th, 2008 03:22 pm |
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This past weekend we went to NC for two grandchildren's birthdays, which are always attended by us and the other set of grandparents, and in-laws. It is a longstanding tradition, after the kids are in bed, to have a fierce game of Cranium, with teams divided between the men and women. One of the questions to my team involved the controversy over Galileo and the RCC, and we did answer it correctly. But afterwards I was asked (as the only catholic and regular churchgoer) why the church would be concerned with this question. After reading Dave's paper, it seems the church thought heliocentrism might be unscriptural, is that right? I'm not sure why this was an issue, and I'd like to be able to explain it when I see my pagan gang again!
Also, was it ever a controversy for the RCC over whether the earth was flat or round?
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Dave Armstrong Network Apologist

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Posted: Wed Mar 19th, 2008 06:00 pm |
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Credo Catholic wrote: After reading Dave's paper, it seems the church thought heliocentrism might be unscriptural, is that right? I'm not sure why this was an issue, and I'd like to be able to explain it when I see my pagan gang again!
Also, was it ever a controversy for the RCC over whether the earth was flat or round?
We can't say "the Church" thought this, because there was never an official proclamation. Copernicus' heliocentric theory was greeted by the pope of the time and many in the Church. For some reason, at the time of Galileo about a century later, some in the Church thought otherwise, but it was basically their own opinions only, while (as I noted in the paper):
Giorgio de Santillana stated that "It has been known for a long time that a major part of the church intellectuals were on the side of Galileo, while the clearest opposition to him came from secular ideas" (The Crime of Galileo, University of Chicago Press, 1955, xii-xiii).
The sphericity of the earth was also not a big issue. I wrote in my paper above:
Catholic philosophers, on the other hand, like Nicholas Oresme (c.1325-1382) and Nicholas of Cusa (1401-1464) had long since posited a moving earth, and the sphericity of the earth had been taught even earlier by St. Albert the Great, St. Thomas Aquinas, and Dante.
We must be careful to distinguish between what the Church taught as dogma, and the opinions of Churchmen on science (not faith and morals, after all), that can change over time, just as the opinions of scientists have changed on many issues.
It's a very complex topic. Just give your relatives links to my papers on it, which provide (if I do say so) a good introduction and Catholic perspective on the topic. A big part of my contention on the matter was to show that it wasn't just the Catholic Church (or Catholics, I should say) that made mistakes; there were plenty enough to go around. The real truth in such historical events is always more fascinating than the myths that are built up and accepted by so many as Gospel Truth.
____________________ I'm happy to offer whatever theological & personal assistance I can. My blog, Biblical Evidence for Catholicism, contains 2000+ papers & web pages (absolutely free) & 16 apologetic books (for sale):
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BodRod Member

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Posted: Wed Mar 19th, 2008 09:11 pm |
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| I think the Church would not get into these types of situations or be the cause for such questions if she would stick to religion and religious topics and leave science to scientists.
____________________ Gratias agamus Domino Deo nostro.
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Steven Barrett Member

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Posted: Thu Mar 20th, 2008 03:37 am |
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Well, if Brittany's not the center, and it's not Paris, it must be Lindsay Lohan! But all this means science has discovered "another universe." Notice I didn't say competent science; but just science. It's from "just science" that we get that all infallible Dr. Phil.
And from there all discussions about "intelligent design" have to be put on hold.
But if you really are daring to see how certain body chemicals, flesh, bones, skin, muscle tissue, etc, etc., come together to form a perfect storm of contemporary banality in thought, just put Dr. Phil, Brit and the Rev. Joel all one one stage competing for the title of America's Idolatry -- with Fr. Neuhaus, Peggy Noonan and Cardinal Arinze as the judges.
God was indeed merciful to Gallileo to have placed him on earth long before the era of television and celebrittanyism.
____________________ For anybody interested in reading commentary from a Catholic's socially conservative/fiscally liberal viewpoint, go to my new blog at http://www.politicsramble.com/ .
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BodRod Member

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Posted: Thu Mar 20th, 2008 04:27 am |
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Steven Barrett wrote: 
Notice I didn't say competent science; but just science.
I believe it is called "Junk Science".
And from there all discussions about "intelligent design" have to be put on hold. If you want to have some fun someday and if you have a mean streak, ask a non-intelligent design person to explain evolution in the light of the 1st and 2nd laws of thermal-dynamics. BTW, don't expect them to ever speak to you again ...... ever!!! 
____________________ Gratias agamus Domino Deo nostro.
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Dave Armstrong Network Apologist

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Posted: Thu Mar 20th, 2008 07:34 pm |
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BodRod wrote: I think the Church would not get into these types of situations or be the cause for such questions if she would stick to religion and religious topics and leave science to scientists.
But you neglect to see that Galileo was being overly dogmatic and intruding into the theological realm. This is not simply a matter of the "Church" making a dumb mistake and overstepping its bounds. The "Church" (i.e., the magisterium) never spoke on the matter one way or the other (see my lengthy quotation above, from The Catholic Encyclopedia). Certain members of the Church held erroneous cosmological views. But so did Galileo in some respects too. Big wow. Folks made errors. No big deal. As I wrote above:
But the scientist (though basically correct) was overconfident and quite obstinate in proclaiming his scientific theory as absolute truth, and this was a major concern. Accordingly, St. Robert Bellarmine, who was directly involved in the controversy, made it clear that heliocentrism was not irreversibly condemned, and also that a not-yet proven theory was not an unassailable fact. Bellarmine actually had the superior understanding of the nature of a scientific hypothesis. Galileo was scientifically fallible, too. He held that the entire universe revolved around the sun in circular (not elliptical) orbits, and that tides were caused by the rotation of the earth. True heliocentrism wasn’t conclusively proven until some 200 years later.
As in all my apologetics, and especially when about these "notorious" instances of Catholic error, I want the "whole story" to be known and understood, not just one-sided propaganda that seeks to discredit the Church first and foremost and ignores all of the relevant information.
We get the added bonus that the whole, real truth is invariably far more interesting than the self-interested, self-promoting myths and legends that are too often bandied about by academics and so-called "intelligentsia" (in this case, in the name of "science").
If anyone is overstepping the largely legitimate methodological boundaries of science and religion today, it is the subgroup of atheist, materialist scientists: folks like Richard Dawkins, who insist on stepping outside of their area of expertise and proclaiming dogmatically that there is no God. Dawkins as a scientist cannot say that, because science deals with matter (and God is Spirit, and the supernatural is outside the realm of science per se). But he won't shut up about it because it makes him feel important and smart and sells lots of books and makes lots of $$$$$. He won't say (at least not very often, or loudly) that as a scientist he has no prerogative speak about it, and that when he does so, he is doing it merely as a non-expert amateur philosopher: scarcely more qualified than you or I. That would be too honest and real and counter-productive.
So these guys transgress the boundaries all the time, and it's fine, but let a Catholic scientist like Michael Behe dare to say only that not all things can be explained by conventional evolution, and the sky falls down. That is bringing religion into science, and flat earth creationism and "Bible science," blah blah blah.
The double standard is wider than the Grand Canyon.
____________________ I'm happy to offer whatever theological & personal assistance I can. My blog, Biblical Evidence for Catholicism, contains 2000+ papers & web pages (absolutely free) & 16 apologetic books (for sale):
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BodRod Member

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Posted: Thu Mar 20th, 2008 09:42 pm |
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Did I strike a nerve, Dave? 
____________________ Gratias agamus Domino Deo nostro.
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Dave Armstrong Network Apologist

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Posted: Thu Mar 20th, 2008 10:08 pm |
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Did I strike a nerve, Dave? 
Hardly. I don't respond out of impulse, but out of concern (in this instance) for historical truth. You seem to want to throw out garden variety comments like this one, but not discuss (let alone defend) your point of view. Instead, when someone defends the contrary, or brings out the many nuances and relevant particulars left out of broad, "slogan"-type remarks (as I have done), you make a dismissive, short, witty retort. You might think it is fun, but I don't see that it accomplishes much.
You're certainly sharp enough to defend your viewpoints. I encourage you to do so and to actually have a conversation about it, if you're interested in some issue raised. But in any event, I refuse (as an apologist and enthusiastic student of the history of ideas) to let a complex issue like the Galileo affair be reduced to secular-inspired slogans. We owe much more than that to our Catholic forefathers who weren't nearly as "dumb" as they are so often made out to be.
____________________ I'm happy to offer whatever theological & personal assistance I can. My blog, Biblical Evidence for Catholicism, contains 2000+ papers & web pages (absolutely free) & 16 apologetic books (for sale):
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BodRod Member

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Posted: Thu Mar 20th, 2008 11:08 pm |
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Dave Armstrong wrote: We owe much more than that to our Catholic forefathers who weren't nearly as "dumb" as they are so often made out to be.
Right,however, at the same time I think we do an injustice to the Church and to the readers of these BBs if we white-wash the situation which tends to cover up the actual situations of the day. My impression is that your position is more in line with the version of history as put forth by the Church. I don't think that is fair. I think all the commentary of the day should be considered. This reminds me of a comment reportedly made by Kissinger to Nixon about the time Nixon was making his exit. The comment went something like, "Mr. President, I think history will treat you kindly and your legacy will be a positive one." Nixon reportedly responded with, "It all depends on who writes the history." I have lived long enough to see that the history books I had as a child were different than the history books my kids used which are different than the history books kids use today.
I do not believe I have ever said that the Church forefathers were "dumb" as you put it. (BTW, in my opinion that word is dispicable when referring to most animals and especially when referring to humans!!!) However, they were human and they made mistakes. Also, I think they will make mistakes in the future. However, if you have followed the writers of the Chruch in recent decades, some of those mistakes have been acknowledged and steps have been taken to rectify any damage that may have been cause.
AND, since we are talking about science and the Church, if anyone is interested in learning more about the contributions the Church has made to the world, may I suggest the book, How The Catholic Church Built Western Civilization by Thomas E. Woods, Jr., Ph.D. Chapter Five deals with "The Church and Science".
In my opinion, the book is a great book. In addition to science, the books deals with contributions the Church has made in architecture, international law, econimics, western law and western morality. While the author does not make a point of it, I think we could all agree that the Church has also made HUGE contributions to the field of music.
Let's see. ..... What was my point. ..... Oh yes, I think we need to be informed of all sides of an issue and then make decisions. 
____________________ Gratias agamus Domino Deo nostro.
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Dave Armstrong Network Apologist

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Posted: Fri Mar 21st, 2008 12:23 am |
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I'm delighted that you responded in some depth, Cliff!
Right, however, at the same time I think we do an injustice to the Church and to the readers of these BBs if we white-wash the situation which tends to cover up the actual situations of the day. My impression is that your position is more in line with the version of history as put forth by the Church. I don't think that is fair.
I'm obviously a defender of the Church, as an advocate / apologist. That much is clear. It doesn't follow, however, that I either "whitewash" facts, or ever seek to do so. As I see it, I am simply collecting all the relevant facts and presenting them, so that readers can have a more accurate picture of what actually happened. Like most people, I was spoon-fed the secular line that made out that the Church was this troglodyte, anti-intellectual, anti-scientific, know-nothing monster and Galileo and his cohorts were all open-minded, enlightened truth machines, persecuted as such by the reactionary Church.
The truth is far more complex than that, as I think I have shown in the few words that I devoted to the issue in my latest book, and in some longer papers. For one thing, Galileo remained an orthodox Catholic, and he was guilty of now-known scientific errors, too. St. Robert Bellarmine (no intellectual slouch) actually had a more accurate notion of scientific hypotheses and theories than Galileo did (by today's definitions and criteria). And that ain't just me saying that. As usual, I back myself up with the relevant sources (as much as possible, from non-Catholics). In this instance, it was well-known philosopher of science Thomas Kuhn:
Most of Galileo's opponents behaved more rationally. Like Bellarmine, they agreed that the phenomena were in the sky but denied that they proved Galileo's contentions. In this, of course, they were quite right. Though the telescope argued much, it proved nothing.
(The Copernican Revolution, New York: Random House / Vintage Books, 1957, p. 226)
Kuhn, in this same book, even defends, at length, the contributions and brilliance of the lifelong geocentrist Tycho Brahe (describing him as "the preeminent astronomical authority" of the second half of the 16th century, who had "immense prestige"), as I documented in a paper of mine.
Truth is stranger (and far more interesting) than fiction. It's not the case that the Catholics were (to use the caricatures and stereotypes constantly utilized by materialist scientists and other like-minded secularist academics) the anti-science dummies who were all geocentrists, and refused to look through Galileo's telescope, while the scientists were (to a person) the ultra-smart, forward-looking, inquisitive folks (gee, kinda like scientists today!), who were never geocentrists, and who would never, ever believe something as "unscientific" as astrology.
WRONG on all counts. One must look at individuals, and in the context of their time, and have some understanding of the intellectual milieu as well and a sense of the development of both science and theology over time. Kuhn understands this. The ones who truly study the matter on both "sides" with an open mind do, as a general rule.
What happened, happened. The Church is on record as having apologized for the errors that some high-ranking Catholics made, through Pope John Paul II and others. They had nothing whatever to do with infallibility. They were simple human errors, of a sort that many scientists and philosophers also made. Good grief. I noted in my post above that the Lutheran philosopher Leibniz: one of the most brilliant minds of all time, fought against Newton's theory of gravitation.
No one is denying that such errors occurred (last of all, me). But the fuller picture should also be discussed because of how the incident is used and exploited by secularists and non-Catholic Christian opponents of the Catholic Church.
My methodology is always the same regarding all these "scandals" in Catholic history: whether it be the Inquisition or the Crusades or the current sexual scandal. I don't deny the real wrongs and errors at all, but I put them in proper perspective and refuse to accept the nonsense that always makes the Catholic Church the Big Bad Boogeyman and ignores similar scandals in non-Catholic circles. I will not bow to intellectual double standards, ever.
Atheist scientists want to go back to the early 17th century and even then have to distort what happened and only present one side of it, when there are plenty of far more scandalous "skeletons" in their own closet (that we rarely hear about), and more recently, at that. We need only go back less than two hundred years to find stuff like phrenology, where the shape of a person's skull was thought (by mainstream science) to have a direct relationship to their intelligence. The science of, say, 1900, was shot through with racism: hardly a proud chapter in scientific history.
But Christians of two, three generations earlier, like William Wilberforce and the abolitionists were far more "progressive" on the race issue. Christians (not "progressive" scientists) are always on the cutting edge of societal progress, whether you look at slavery, or civil rights, or the fall of Soviet Communism (Pope John Paul II and Christians in Eastern Europe, and another "dumb guy": Ronald Reagan).
I have shown how Galileo himself and other scientists of his time like Kepler, were neck-deep in astrology.
Eugenics is another sad chapter in scientific history. We saw what the Nazis did with that. In America, we had sterilization of black men and suchlike. Remember, Germany was one of the most scientifically advanced societies then and now. But this was supposedly "good science". Margaret Sanger picked it up and institutionalized her racism in her group, Planned Parenthood, and indeed, this played the key role in promulgation of the immorality of contraception and later, of abortion itself. That's why the best Christian apologists of the period, like Chesterton and C.S. Lewis, wrote about these kinds of follies that were rampant within science. Lewis often satirized the tunnel vision materialist scientist of his time. Chesterton went after eugenics; both of them lambasted contraception, etc.
I think all the commentary of the day should be considered.
I've done so. I went to probably the foremost philosopher of scientific method, Thomas Kuhn, and his work specifically about Copernicanism (that I had in my own library, as I am rather fond of Kuhn), to support my argument.
This reminds me of a comment reportedly made by Kissinger to Nixon about the time Nixon was making his exit. The comment went something like, "Mr. President, I think history will treat you kindly and your legacy will be a positive one." Nixon reportedly responded with, "It all depends on who writes the history." I have lived long enough to see that the history books I had as a child were different than the history books my kids used which are different than the history books kids use today.
That's right, but none of that changes the actual facts of the Galileo incident, that can be ascertained and analyzed.
I do not believe I have ever said that the Church forefathers were "dumb" as you put it. (BTW, in my opinion that word is dispicable when referring to most animals and especially when referring to humans!!!)
It's called rhetorical exaggeration. In my opinion, you seemed to accept the typical secular line about Galileo. You may not think old Catholics were dumb, but many secular intellectuals do (they think we're dumb today, too, as do many Protestants, for that matter). We all must be vigilant to avoid being taken in by secularism and its ways of thought. It's a constant battle. But we have to be aware that we are doing it.
My perspective is that we should be critical of the information we get, and understand the presuppositions and biases of those who give it. I don't think you and I would ultimately disgaree on that. Catholics have biases, too. Everyone does (as I've always stressed). That's exactly why I have constantly advocated hearing "both sides" of any issue and getting all the facts, and never relying on one account only. It's why I am a huge advocate of dialogue and debate, because it is, in my opinion, the very best way to learn and to use one's mind to its potential.
However, they were human and they made mistakes. Also, I think they will make mistakes in the future. However, if you have followed the writers of the Church in recent decades, some of those mistakes have been acknowledged and steps have been taken to rectify any damage that may have been cause.
Of course. I don't disagree with any of that. I never denied it. It wasn't what my book chapter and papers were arguing.
AND, since we are talking about science and the Church, if anyone is interested in learning more about the contributions the Church has made to the world, may I suggest the book, How The Catholic Church Built Western Civilization by Thomas E. Woods, Jr., Ph.D. Chapter Five deals with "The Church and Science".
I've heard good things about that book.
In my opinion, the book is a great book. In addition to science, the books deals with contributions the Church has made in architecture, international law, econimics, western law and western morality. While the author does not make a point of it, I think we could all agree that the Church has also made HUGE contributions to the field of music.
Absolutely.
Let's see. ..... What was my point. ..... Oh yes, I think we need to be informed of all sides of an issue and then make decisions. 
Well, so do I! So whaddya know! We completely agree on that. My task as an apologist and amateur historian of ideas (that and development of doctrine are two of my very favorite areas of inquiry) has been to fight the stereotypes that are passed down by critics of Catholicism or of larger Christianity and to demonstrate on a popular level that there was much more complexity and nuance in play than is usually assumed because of uncritical acceptance of biased secular history.
I not only defend the Church's position (truly defend it, with reason, not just parrot or regurgitate it), but I interact with severe critics of it, and make arguments not only for why our position prevails, but why theirs fails and falls short, as well. This is critical thought and having the courage of one's convictions. In dialoguing, one is forced to look more closely at their own position. Obviously, I've done a great deal of that, since I have posted some 400-450 dialogues and debates on my blog.
Last edited on Fri Mar 21st, 2008 12:30 am by Dave Armstrong
____________________ I'm happy to offer whatever theological & personal assistance I can. My blog, Biblical Evidence for Catholicism, contains 2000+ papers & web pages (absolutely free) & 16 apologetic books (for sale):
http://www.biblicalcatholic.com/
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Tina in Ashburn Member

| Joined: | Mon May 21st, 2007 |
| Location: | Ashburn, Virginia USA |
| Posts: | 281 |
| First Name: | Tina | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Cradle Roman Catholic, Ukranian Catholic, presently practicing as Roman Latin ... |
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Posted: Sat Mar 22nd, 2008 06:04 am |
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Dave,
Doesn't the whole discussion revolve around whether the scriptural description of the sun not moving was intended as literal or figurative?
Which is it? Only the Church can interpret this for us. Has this ever been defined?
Also, we may know without a doubt that the sun is the center of our solar system but I am unaware of any studies that theorize that Earth is the center of the Universe. So we still don't know scientifically, now do we?
The infallible Church is always right - when science doesn't agree, it is because some scientific law has escaped us.
This whole Gallileo story can only be about truths of the Faith, not science, since the Church only speaks on the Faith. But if science is true, it can not conflict with Faith, else it is false science.
[need an icon here of fanning the flames, heh heh]
____________________ Tina
Arlington Diocese
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