 |
| Author | Post |
|---|
DrSharkey
Member
| Joined: | Wed Aug 22nd, 2007 |
| Location: | Jackson, Tennessee USA |
| Posts: | 38 |
| First Name: | John | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Agnostic, Southern Baptist (sorta), church of Christ, looking Romeward |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Wed Aug 29th, 2007 03:14 pm |
|
A couple of questions about the Mass.
1. What's the big deal about the current Pope making a statement that it's permissible to use Latin when performing the Mass? I know that until recent time (1960's?) it was always in Latin. Why is the Pope's latest statement making such headlines?
2. I've read here and other places that EWTN can only broadcast a Mass if the Priest is facing the congregation. What's the significance of the direction the priest faces?
____________________
http://sharkeysworld.blogspot.com/
|
|
|
Tina in Ashburn
Member
| Joined: | Mon May 21st, 2007 |
| Location: | Ashburn, Virginia USA |
| Posts: | 282 |
| First Name: | Tina | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Cradle Roman Catholic, Ukranian Catholic, presently practicing as Roman Latin ... |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Wed Aug 29th, 2007 04:07 pm |
|
John,
1. The Mass is being referred to as the Latin Mass by everybody, but that's imprecise because the New Mass can be said in Latin as well. The Pope is actually referring to the Mass of 1962 which is very different from our normal present-day Mass. Although this former Mass was never abrogated [scratched and forbidden to be said officially] most bishops made it impossible for priests to say this old Mass [aka the Tridentine Mass]. The Pope apparently tried to get the bishops to relax this atmosphere without success. So Pope Benedict was left no other choice than to go to priests directly, giving them permission. This is pretty extraordinary.
2. Ad Orientem is "towards the East". It also means facing the Tabernacle, with the priest's back to the people. We used to "hear Mass", often in silent recollection, as the priest faced God in the Tabernacle and spoke to Him on our behalf. Today we "participate" as the priest faces the congregation. Going back to Jewish practices, the high priest was completely hidden from the people as he addressed God behind the tabernacle curtain. Ad Orientem reflects this practice. Some feel that when the priest faces the people, this takes away the emphasis of the communication between the priest and God, and displaces the attention of the priest from God towards people instead. From this, some might get the impression that the Mass is less effective without the participation of the people. In a nutshell, the meaning is all about reverence and tradition.
____________________
Tina
Arlington Diocese
|
|
|
David W. Emery
Network Helper
| Joined: | Fri Sep 29th, 2006 |
| Location: | Brownsville, Texas USA |
| Posts: | 2276 |
| First Name: | David | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Catholic |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Wed Aug 29th, 2007 04:33 pm |
|
That’s a couple of biggies, John. They’ve both been the object of much confusion. I’ll offer a few observations of my own. They will not conflict with Tina’s explanation but instead will fill in some details.
Regarding the two forms of the Mass in the Latin Church: After the Second Vatican Council authorized certain changes, Pope Paul VI revised the Latin Rite Mass according to the input supplied by the various bishops’ conferences around the world. The basis of this revised Mass (the one most Catholics are familiar with today) is the typical (= “authorized”) Latin text. Versions in other languages were made based on this text. (The English version is currently undergoing further revision.)
Meanwhile, there were many complaints about the “New Mass” (some well founded, since there were abundant abuses circulating in the decades immediately following its inauguration), and some splinter groups were formed. Pope John Paul II then allowed the old form (which is quite distinct in a number of ways, not just in the use of Latin) to be used in certain instances with the local bishop’s permission.
More recently, Pope Benedict XVI extended this permission, establishing the “Old Mass” as the Extraordinary Form of the Mass for the Latin Church. This was done to protect the right of those who found the older form more to their liking but whose bishop, for whatever reason, was opposed to allowing it to be celebrated. It also opened the door to further dialogue with the various splinter groups and the hope that they might return to full unity with the Catholic Church.
With regard to the way the priest is facing when he celebrates Mass: In the older form (now called the Extraordinary Form), the priest faces the same way as the congregation — that is, with his back to the people. This is done to show the priest praying with the congregation as opposed to acting as a master of ceremonies. (The priest does occasionally turn around to address the people in the Extraordinary Form, however.)
In the newer form (now called the Ordinary Form), the priest has the option of facing the same way as in the Extraordinary Form or facing the people. Mother Angelica had wanted to take advantage of this option for Masses televised by EWTN, having the priest face the same direction as the congregation. However, the former bishop of Birmingham, Alabama, where EWTN is situated, decided that in the interest of uniformity, the priest should face the people whenever the Mass would be televised. (Actually, his decision makes some sense for a televised Mass, since it would allow the public to see the priest’s face throughout the course of the Mass. Eye contact, even electronically, provides a much stronger visual engagement for the viewer, who may well not be Catholic.)
But the situation is now changed. The bishop who made that ruling has retired, and Birmingham now has a new bishop. Also, the Extraordinary Form of the Mass is about to be inaugurated, basically overruling any previous decision by a bishop anywhere that the priest has to face the congregation.
David
|
|
|
DrSharkey
Member
| Joined: | Wed Aug 22nd, 2007 |
| Location: | Jackson, Tennessee USA |
| Posts: | 38 |
| First Name: | John | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Agnostic, Southern Baptist (sorta), church of Christ, looking Romeward |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Wed Aug 29th, 2007 06:12 pm |
|
David W. Emery wrote:
This was done to protect the right of those who found the older form more to their liking but whose bishop, for whatever reason, was opposed to allowing it to be celebrated.
Thanks to Tina and David for their answers. Does anyone have any examples that the bishops might have used for not allowing the Extraordinary form? In other words, has anyone heard a bishop give an actual explanation for his reasons?
____________________
http://sharkeysworld.blogspot.com/
|
|
|
David W. Emery
Network Helper
| Joined: | Fri Sep 29th, 2006 |
| Location: | Brownsville, Texas USA |
| Posts: | 2276 |
| First Name: | David | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Catholic |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Wed Aug 29th, 2007 07:08 pm |
|
Actual reasons? Hmm. I don’t know if any of the following were ever really used as reasons by real flesh and blood bishops, but the possibilities do come to mind.
1. There’s no parish in my diocese properly equipped to offer the traditional Latin Mass. All the communion rails have been stripped out, all the altars have been rebuilt, etc. The expense to remodel even one of them would cost more than we can afford and then the church would be useless for the new Mass, so we would end up having to build a new parish church.
2. There’s no priest in my diocese who knows Latin or remembers the old Mass. And because of the priest shortage we don’t have any way to free up a priest so he can take a course in how to celebrate it.
3. The group asking for the traditional Latin Mass is too small to consider making special arrangements for them.
4. I suspect that this group asking for the traditional Latin Mass is made up of members of a schismatic sect. I will not pander to splinter groups and heretics.
5. In the interest of uniformity of practice and orthodoxy of belief, the new, revised Mass will be used in all parishes at all times.
I’m sure other members can come up with more, maybe including a little historical evidence.
David
|
|
|
Credo Catholic
Member
| Joined: | Sat May 5th, 2007 |
| Location: | Greenville, South Carolina USA |
| Posts: | 1479 |
| First Name: | Marsha | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Baptist, Catholic |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Wed Aug 29th, 2007 09:53 pm |
|
| For those of us who are just now coming into the church, it is mystifying how we are always told of the history of the mass, how many centuries its been done the same, how important it all is. And all of a sudden, a change was made and priests forgot their Latin, and communion rails were suddenly ripped out! Forgive us for asking over and over how this came about, it's just hard to picture if you weren't there.
|
|
|
Tina in Ashburn
Member
| Joined: | Mon May 21st, 2007 |
| Location: | Ashburn, Virginia USA |
| Posts: | 282 |
| First Name: | Tina | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Cradle Roman Catholic, Ukranian Catholic, presently practicing as Roman Latin ... |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Wed Aug 29th, 2007 10:10 pm |
|
Our good and kind former bishop Keating [RIP] would usually say words to the effect of "I'll prayerfully consider it".
John, your question is interesting - I'd never thought of specifics like that. Man, that could be a book! We all knew it wasn't worth pursuing. Many people over 40 years ago exhausted themselves trying to get the old Mass considered. Eventually those that persisted were pegged as pretty rebellious and contentious, which, er, they were.
The pressure for the clergy to conform has been great. It's impossible to judge who had malice in their hearts, who acted out of fear, who resigned themselves to obedience and the mercy of God.
I look at our new situation and consider it all a trial that God has asked of His Church. Sinners that we are, we have deserved this. If the Church is the Bride of Christ, then She undergoes sufferings like Jesus. That most churches look like the stripped-down version of Good Friday may well be a prophetic symbol that we all are called to martyrdom in all kinds of ways which mirror the Passion of Christ. Its called obedience.
David says to your question, "That’s a couple of biggies". Well, hon, that's an understatement. For now, learn as much as you can about the Church. This 40-year scenario of the Mass is a complex subject. Your mission, "should you choose to accept it", is to understand what the Mass is first.
At this point, this Mass question doesn't matter. Let's move forward. Those who obediently say the New Mass have actually opened champagne and had Motu Propio parties. At such an event, one priest here in our diocese had tears of joy in his eyes as he told a friend, "I never thought this day would come again."
____________________
Tina
Arlington Diocese
|
|
|
Credo Catholic
Member
| Joined: | Sat May 5th, 2007 |
| Location: | Greenville, South Carolina USA |
| Posts: | 1479 |
| First Name: | Marsha | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Baptist, Catholic |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Wed Aug 29th, 2007 10:16 pm |
|
Tina in Ashburn wrote: If the Church is the Bride of Christ, then She undergoes sufferings like Jesus.
That's a good point Tina. One worth remembering when we are criticized in the media and by those who don't understand what the church is all about.
|
|
|
Tina in Ashburn
Member
| Joined: | Mon May 21st, 2007 |
| Location: | Ashburn, Virginia USA |
| Posts: | 282 |
| First Name: | Tina | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Cradle Roman Catholic, Ukranian Catholic, presently practicing as Roman Latin ... |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Wed Aug 29th, 2007 10:21 pm |
|
Dear Marsha, its mystifying to long-time Catholics too! :?
But ask away... its cathartic to describe what we've been through.
Its a complex subject, and the audience here is varied. That makes it hard to know where to start or how to answer.
Just know that when anybody asks these questions, the answer becomes an opportunity to describe what the Mass is, what it means, and how very precious a gift it is! How grateful I am that I can go to Mass!!
____________________
Tina
Arlington Diocese
|
|
|
Credo Catholic
Member
| Joined: | Sat May 5th, 2007 |
| Location: | Greenville, South Carolina USA |
| Posts: | 1479 |
| First Name: | Marsha | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Baptist, Catholic |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Wed Aug 29th, 2007 10:34 pm |
|
| I know what you mean about being grateful. I have come to really appreciate the simple daily mass at noon. People come in from work or wherever they've been, and for 25 minutes we worship and celebrate at the Lord's table. It's the best kept secret around, but shouldn't be!
|
|
|
CajunRick
Network Helper
| Joined: | Fri Sep 29th, 2006 |
| Location: | Houma, Louisiana USA |
| Posts: | 5457 |
| First Name: | Rick (& Kermie) | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Lifetime Catholic, Latin Rite |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Thu Aug 30th, 2007 12:45 am |
|
Credo Catholic wrote: For those of us who are just now coming into the church, it is mystifying how we are always told of the history of the mass, how many centuries its been done the same, how important it all is. And all of a sudden, a change was made and priests forgot their Latin, and communion rails were suddenly ripped out! Forgive us for asking over and over how this came about, it's just hard to picture if you weren't there.
In some parishes, the people didn't stand for massive renovations. My own parish is the only one in our diocese which still has a standing High Altar, a removable Altar of Sacrifice, and a communion rail. My parish also happens to have a priest who is actually conversant in Latin. But I haven't talked him into saying mass in the Extraordinary Form.
But I'm working on it.
(Here's a picture of our sanctuary)
Attachment: Picture 002.jpg (Downloaded 30 times)
____________________
Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
Luquette Lane
|
|
|
Credo Catholic
Member
| Joined: | Sat May 5th, 2007 |
| Location: | Greenville, South Carolina USA |
| Posts: | 1479 |
| First Name: | Marsha | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Baptist, Catholic |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Thu Aug 30th, 2007 01:09 am |
|
| Rick, I really like the Sacred Heart statue (it is the sacred heart?). Your church is beautiful. I don't see kneelers at the communion rail. Do people stand and wait for the priest to come down the line to them? I don't mean to be critical of other churches who have gone the contemporary way, because it's their church to do what they want, but I think your church, the old environment, looks more solemn and reverent. It looks more "catholic"! Thanks for sharing. Last edited on Thu Aug 30th, 2007 02:02 am by Credo Catholic
|
|
|
CajunRick
Network Helper
| Joined: | Fri Sep 29th, 2006 |
| Location: | Houma, Louisiana USA |
| Posts: | 5457 |
| First Name: | Rick (& Kermie) | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Lifetime Catholic, Latin Rite |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Thu Aug 30th, 2007 09:06 am |
|
Credo Catholic wrote: Rick, I really like the Sacred Heart statue (it is the sacred heart?). Your church is beautiful. I don't see kneelers at the communion rail. Do people stand and wait for the priest to come down the line to them?
The communion rail has not been used for communion in years. My point is that it could be. It has been used for communal anointing at healing masses, and at our annual memorial service we line the communion rail with candles representing those who have died during the preceeding year. It's a beautiful, very moving mass.
The kneeler in front of the communion rail is carpeted but not padded. The community I live in is called "Bayou Blue" and so the predominant color of the church is blue; it is a Cajun community so the church is dedicated in honor of St. Louis, King of France, and the secondary patroness is St. Joan of Arc. And yes, that is the Sacred Heart. The red of his cloak and his precious heart dominates as the only red in an otherwise blue environment.
The Altar of Sacrifice is a solid marble slab resting atop two pedestals and so could be (carefully) removed.
____________________
Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
Luquette Lane
|
|
|
Current time is 01:14 pm | |
|
|
|
|
|
