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Deacon Harry Prestwood
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Posted: Mon Oct 30th, 2006 11:34 pm |
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Dear Friends:
I have a friend who is not Catholic but is very open to learn about the Church. He says that if the Church can prove Apostolic Succesion he would be compelled to take a cerious look at the Church. Most every thing I have told him concerning the Church he says he has no problem with but needs to know from this proof the truth of the Church. Please help.
Pax-tecum
Deacon Hary Prestwood
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David W. Emery
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Posted: Tue Oct 31st, 2006 01:07 am |
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I don’t know if one can prove any doctrine to one who denies it. I’m more of an “explainer” than a “prover” anyway. The following is adapted from something I wrote recently to a young Pentecostal man who was asking the same basic question as your friend.
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Apostolic succession is important to preserve the authenticity and authority of the Church. This necessitates a different understanding of "Church" than what you grew up with. And this, in turn, is why you are having difficulty understanding the necessity and purpose of apostolic succession.
So before speaking of apostolic succession, we need to investigate ecclesiology from the Catholic point of view.
St. Ignatius of Antioch (late 1st century; letters cerca 105-110), provides this understanding: The Church is the divinely instituted society of human beings, believers in Jesus Christ. He speaks vehemently of preserving its social, institutional and doctrinal unity, just as Christ himself prayed for unity at the Last Supper (John 17). A divided society cannot be truly divine, for there is only one God.
CCC 813 What an astonishing mystery! There is one Father of the universe, one Logos of the universe, and also one Holy Spirit, everywhere one and the same; there is also one virgin become mother, and I should like to call her “Church.” (St. Clement of Alexandria, Paedagogus 1.6.42; 2nd century, d. cerca AD 211-215)
Many, seeing the reference to a "virgin become mother," will think immediately of Mary, the mother of Jesus. So it is surprising that Clement would say that it refers to the Church. But the fact is that Mary is traditionally seen as a paradigm of the Church (see, for instance, Revelation 12), so there is much advantage in exploring the parallels.
For this reason, you may find Clement's entire treatise apropos. It is online at http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/02091.htm . The citation above, taken from the Catechism of the Catholic Church (CCC), may be found a little under halfway down in Book 1.
You will also benefit from reading the section of the Catechism dealing with the Church, which may be found online at http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P26.HTM . Section 9, which treats of the Church, is an introduction and six "paragraphs" on successive web pages. Just click the "Next" button at the top or bottom of each page to advance. (If you have your own book copy of the Catechism, it is numbers 748 through 975.)
Continuing our discussion of the unity of the Church, notice first of all that the Church is not just a "spiritual" entity. It is that, but it is also a social and institutional entity. Why? Because human beings are not disembodied souls, but an amalgam of body and soul, living in concert with others of the same kind. Christianity exists on all levels of human existence; it cannot be compartmentalized and relegated to a small corner of one's life, but must pervade everything we humans experience, do and are. After all, it is the whole man that Christ came to save, not just a part of him. Body and soul together will pass eternity in heaven (or hell, as we determine through our attitude and behavior).
So the unity of the Church really expresses the interior and exterior unity of man: within himself as body and soul, faculties and consciousness; and exteriorly through his relations with other men, with the rest of creation and with God. Therefore the organic unity of the Church is vitally important. As scripture says, "If any one says, 'I love God,' and hates his brother, he is a liar; for he who does not love his brother whom he has seen, cannot love God whom he has not seen" (1 John 4:20).
This is where unity of doctrine and institutional unity come into play. Having an explicit doctrine, universally adhered to, is the only way to maintain doctrinal unity. And having an institutional unity, held together by authority, is the only practical way of maintaining the fraternal bond and orderly worship.
You can see in the bible how the Israelites had an orderly worship, minutely laid down by divine decree. When the first temple was built, this worship, including the various sacrifices, was elaborated to an impressive level yet carefully maintained. But how was this worship maintained? And how was the organic unity of Judaism assured? Through the successive generations of the Aaronic priesthood and Levitical ecclesiastics. The priests handled the sacrifices and the judging of cases, while the Levites in general handled administrative and liturgical matters.
Now the Christian Church is, as it were, Judaism on a larger scale, since it includes people of all nations, races and backgrounds. Contrary to what certain Protestants have asserted in the past, the Church is not "ethnic." It is, as its name implies, the all-encompassing vehicle of salvation. Yet it had its start in the twelve apostles. These apostles were the initial organizers and leaders, the first Christian priests. All subsequent institutional elaboration has its origin here. How can we have Christianity today as it was in its beginning unless the structure that was instituted then is preserved?
And just as in Israel the role of the priests and Levites was hereditary, so also in the Church we see an inheritance of office through the rite of ordination. The bond of blood, demonstrated through genealogies, assured the legitimacy of the Jewish priesthood and its authority. In the Church, apostolic succession accomplishes the same thing, assuring the Christian faithful today of the same legitimacy and authority as in the days of the apostles, and preserving the integrity of the Christian ministerial priesthood through the "genealogy" of episcopal ordination.
Protestants, meanwhile, have lost sight of this whole area of ecclesiology because they have abandoned the traditional understanding of the Church as a "real" entity for a merely "spiritual" and invisible entity. As the institutional Church was dismantled, so also doctrinal unity was destroyed. This is why we see now over 30,000 different denominations (not counting the innumerable "home churches" and "Jesus-N-Me" individuals who eschew any institutional ties), preaching an unbelievable cacophony of conflicting doctrines and practices.
How do you compare Pentecostals and Presbyterians? About the only similarity is that they both call themselves "Christians." For the rest, they are worlds apart. Is this not so? How, then, does one define Christianity? And if it is indefinable, how can we say it exists?
But the Catholic way preserves the apostles' authority even as it preserves their priesthood, thus safeguarding in turn the integrity of the faith and the vital link with Christ crucified and risen.
* * *
To summarize: My main point is that the early writers, like St. Ignatius and St. Clement, show the Church as a real entity. It is only in this context that apostolic succession makes sense. If we look at biblical Judaism, we see that it, too, follows the realistic understanding of the people of God, rather than a vague "spiritual" church that gets lost in the context of congregationalism and subjectivist individualism. So we have two strong historical indications of the concrete nature of the Church. If we accept this concept as true, then it follows that authority and priesthood are important factors in the preservation of ecclesiastical unity and purity of doctrine, just as we see in the history of Judaism. From there it is only a short step to the necessity of apostolic succession to preserve both the authority and the priestly nature of the Church.
David
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brian
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Posted: Thu Nov 2nd, 2006 10:02 pm |
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| I thought the person was simply looking for proof that they actually have a record of all the names of people who have suceeded the popes and apostles moreso than an explanation of the doctrine. I thought they wanted to know that we could prove that we know the names and years for sure of every person. I could be wrong, but did your answer provide any links for any such list, or do they exist for the public. I see that my bible has a list of all the popes in it from Peter on.
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CajunRick
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Posted: Thu Nov 2nd, 2006 10:42 pm |
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There is only one pope, so the list is easily found. To have a direct line of succession from the apostles to every individual bishop and priest who ever served in that capacity would be virtually impossible. You have a direct blood line to your ancestors. Can you trace them back 2000 years? I'd be willing to bet you can't.
What we do know is that each bishop of the Roman Catholic Church and all bishops of Churches united with Rome are granted authority directly by the patriarch or pope, so the Holy Father validates his selection as bishop and his reception of orders, along with his right to take the reins of a particular diocese. The process is slightly different in the Eastern Catholic Churches because the pope is not also the patriarch, but it still all leads back to the Holy See.
In the Eastern Churches not united with Rome, it is the patriarch of the Church who serves as the primary successor of the apostles. Apostolic succession and authority flows through him.
So can my bishop trace his apostolic succession directly back 2000 years to the apostles? Probably not. But he has a letters elevating him to the bishopric and naming him bishop of our diocese signed by Pope John Paul II. He can tell you the names of the bishops who ordained him, and the bishop who installed him in this diocese, under the authority of the Holy Father.
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Rick Luquette
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gkchesterton
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Posted: Fri Nov 3rd, 2006 12:41 am |
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While not Catholic since I have other issues still, succession is fairly easy. I'll add to Mr. Emery's comments the following:
1.) Admission to what became the ranks of bishop and priest was granted through physical touch as seen in the example of Timothy (1 Tim 4:14; 2 Tim 1:6). This allowed a physical sign to the community who had authority in the community. This repeated the Jewish cutom that can be seen in various portions of Old Testament where blessings are imparted through touch such as the consecration of the Levites.
2.) The succession of Rome is fairly well documented. My understanding is that minus the period of the anti-popes there's only one serious question of who-got-the-blessing from who and that's more of a question of order. The names escape me at the moment but the succession and the doubts raised by it I believe are listed in Eusebius History of the Church.
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Steven Barrett
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Posted: Wed Nov 15th, 2006 12:26 pm |
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This is a Protestant nation. Always has been and perhaps will always be, no matter how "secular" it appears to be in the legal sense. Because of the heavily Protestant, Enlightenment (read: Masonic) influences on the founding fathers, individualism found a real home here.
Because of this, we have strong individualistic and localistic streaks, especially when it comes to religious affairs. The local church, the individual Christian, etc., have always been given the benefit of the doubt over the more communal Catholic approach towards discerning man's proper role in society. (No wonder Catholics still have to "prove" their "loyalty.") When it comes to the most important (read: matters of faith and morality, which cover a lot of ground) issues, loyal Catholics would rather trust their Magisterium, be it located in Rome or wherever. (Actually the Magisterium is as close as the nearest diocesan chancery!) We have good reason to trust the Magisterium as our Supreme Court of final resort over our national Supreme Court. (Even the presence of a Catholic, Roger B. Taney, for example does not guarantee a truly moral rendering of judgment. Remember Dred Scott?)
The Pope and the Church's Magisterium, alone. is guaranteed to be infallible by no less than the Creator. Governments and all other churches (not in-communion with the Holy See) are created by men, however. The Church has made mistakes; but she has never claimed impeccability.
As for me, I'd rather place my ultimate loyalty in God's only True governing body on earth, the Catholic Magisterium, over any governmental body, no matter how relatively superior (i.e.. the United States of America).
"Dissenting" Catholics can be best described as "American Catholics" as opposed to Catholics who happen to hold American citizenship. They resemble their Protestant and individualistic American cousins in almost every area of life. They put more emphasis on the "my(s)" of life over the "we(s)." This kind of thinking is fine for a prosperous period, but it bodes ill for times of war and economic distress. It also bodes ill when the very basic indicators of human dignity are up for grabs as they were during the Ante-Bellum years and our recent disputes over abortion, euthanasia and embryonic stem-cell research.
With respects to a famous Protestant revolutionary, Patrick Henry, "If this be treason, let me make the most of it."
Last edited on Wed Nov 15th, 2006 12:29 pm by Steven Barrett
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For anybody interested in reading commentary from a Catholic's socially conservative/fiscally liberal viewpoint, go to my new blog at http://www.politicsramble.com/ .
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Darlene
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Posted: Wed Nov 15th, 2006 02:18 pm |
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Steven,
Are you a history major or teacher? What specifically did you mean in your reference to Dred Scott?
Darlene
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Steven Barrett
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Posted: Wed Nov 15th, 2006 03:12 pm |
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I'm a history buff, but originally majored in history where i graduated from, St. Thomas Univ. (formerly Biscayne College, Miami, FL). "Dred Scott" was the decision handed down by Justice Roger B. Taney that justified he continuance of slavery by allowing that Scott, the slave, still remained the "property" of his white "owner" even if he was on "free state" grounds. Not a lawyer (paralegal, though) so my interpretation is not infallible by any means. Taney also fought Lincoln tooth and nail on the latter's decision to revoke habeas corpus on pro-reb members of the maryland legislature that almost seceded from the union. He revoked quite a few other writs, too. But saved the country. Most of my knowledge of the civil war is limited to the battlefields.
Thanks for asking. (s)
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For anybody interested in reading commentary from a Catholic's socially conservative/fiscally liberal viewpoint, go to my new blog at http://www.politicsramble.com/ .
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BettyBoopToo
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Posted: Thu Nov 16th, 2006 03:00 am |
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As for me, I'd rather place my ultimate loyalty in God's only True governing body on earth, the Catholic Magisterium, over any governmental body, no matter how relatively superior (i.e.. the United States of America).
Amen, Stephen
If Cardinal Ratzinger would have been an American citizen I'd of written him in, In the last presidential election.
"Dissenting" Catholics can be best described as "American Catholics" as opposed to Catholics who happen to hold American citizenship. They resemble their Protestant and individualistic American cousins in almost every area of life. They put more emphasis on the "my(s)" of life over the "we(s)." This kind of thinking is fine for a prosperous period, but it bodes ill for times of war and economic distress. It also bodes ill when the very basic indicators of human dignity are up for grabs as they were during the Ante-Bellum years and our recent disputes over abortion, euthanasia and embryonic stem-cell research.
This is so very sad but True. Thank you for these comments. I may have to remember them for the next time my hubby & I have a conversation on American Politics.
God Bless
Betty
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St. John of the Cross
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Steven Barrett
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Posted: Thu Nov 16th, 2006 08:26 am |
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Betty,
Wouldn't it be nice if we had more Joseph Ratzingers to pick from in both major parties? On the other hand, why subject such a decent man to our form of amoral politics? Besides, he took himself out of any "consideration" last week with his recent command that Catholic clergymen (and I think nuns and brothers as well) are to stay out of politics. It seems a shame that he has to repeat this, but I guess the Vatican's still afraid that Fr. Drinan hasn't fully cured himself of politico-itis.
Even if the Holy Father hadn't reminded his troops to eschew politics, I'm sure the ACLU would have a say, with exceptions of course given to Fr. Drinan et al.
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CajunRick
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Posted: Thu Nov 16th, 2006 09:31 am |
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BettyBoopToo wrote: If Cardinal Ratzinger would have been an American citizen I'd of written him in, In the last presidential election.
Dr. Alan Keyes makes a good substitute.
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Rick Luquette
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gkchesterton
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Posted: Thu Nov 16th, 2006 02:38 pm |
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Was the order reiterated? I hadn't heard about it. That would be especially interesting in light of Fr. Raymond Gravel.
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CajunRick
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Posted: Thu Nov 16th, 2006 05:46 pm |
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gkchesterton wrote: Was the order reiterated? I hadn't heard about it. That would be especially interesting in light of Fr. Raymond Gravel.
The software here does not allow an easy trace of messages, and without quotes from the message you're replying to, it's hard to follow the conversation. I'm not sure what your message refers to. Can you explain it a little more, please?
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Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
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gkchesterton
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Posted: Fri Nov 17th, 2006 12:55 pm |
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Steven Barrett wrote: It seems a shame that he has to repeat this, but I guess the Vatican's still afraid that Fr. Drinan hasn't fully cured himself of politico-itis.
This was an implication that said order produced after Drinan was repeated, which would be interesting given the current Canadian scandal. I hadn't picked up on it in any of the Catholic media outlets that I read.
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Steven Barrett
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Posted: Fri Nov 17th, 2006 03:18 pm |
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If it's the kind of scandal the "dissenters' approve of, you're not likely to read about it at all in our non-religious press. Maybe, in our religious presses, depending of course on the diocese and the biases of the diocesan editor. Take it from a former reporter/columnist for a northeastern diocesan paper whose then new editor-in-chief was a Mike Dukakis for president supporter.
Now if the Vatican would just take the same approach towards diocesan papers in the US as it did to finding and weeding out the gays in the seminaries. Fat chance in a country where the First Amendment is often the Baal of the 4th estate, even diocesan papers.
But I think we ought to stick to defining and defending what the world is so often missing when it comes to understanding the beauty of our Faith, notwithstanding the fact that some of the 12 Apostles' successors have shown such difficultiy in getting their papers to toe the line and get all the facts out. The sheep are much stronger in substance than they may've been lead to believe. We can stand the truth. Stomaching is another matter altogether ... Ciao!
Last edited on Fri Nov 17th, 2006 03:19 pm by Steven Barrett
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BettyBoopToo
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Posted: Sat Nov 18th, 2006 04:16 pm |
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cajunrick wrote: BettyBoopToo wrote: If Cardinal Ratzinger would have been an American citizen I'd of written him in, In the last presidential election.
Dr. Alan Keyes makes a good substitute.
Rick:
I've heard this name before, Who is Dr. Alan Keyes?
Also, I thought I just read something on Zenit or CNA that a priest in Canada had caused some trouble for running for a political office?
Thanks
Betty
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St. John of the Cross
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CajunRick
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Posted: Sat Nov 18th, 2006 04:31 pm |
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BettyBoopToo wrote: I've heard this name before, Who is Dr. Alan Keyes?
Dr. Keyes is a former U.N. Ambassador, presidential and senatorial candidate, and probably one of the most brilliant conservatives in America. You can read more about him at his web site.
He will never be elected to public office because he is too outspoken on issues such as abortion, gay marriage, fiscal responsibility in government, accountability of politicians, etc. But his name on the ballot forces the discussion of Catholic social justice issues.
Also, I thought I just read something on Zenit or CNA that a priest in Canada had caused some trouble for running for a political office?
After some problems a couple of decades ago, especially in Latin America but also in other countries, priests were forbidden to seek political office without special permission. The priest in question did not seek permission to run, so he was censured for it. I don't think the consequences were too severe. Priests take a vow of obedience, and participating in political life (or, for that matter, working at Wal-Mart) without permission is a violation of that vow.
Addition: I just did a check on Fr. Raymond Gravel, and he is a former gay prostitute turned priest who publicly supports gay marriage and abortion rights. You can read more here.
He is a candidate in the November 27th election in his district in Canada, so the issue is still ongoing. Most of the articles I was able to find about the election are in French, but you'll find one in English here.
Last edited on Sat Nov 18th, 2006 04:40 pm by CajunRick
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Rick Luquette
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gkchesterton
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Posted: Sat Nov 18th, 2006 09:40 pm |
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cajunrick wrote: After some problems a couple of decades ago, especially in Latin America but also in other countries, priests were forbidden to seek political office without special permission. The priest in question did not seek permission to run, so he was censured for it. I don't think the consequences were too severe. Priests take a vow of obedience, and participating in political life (or, for that matter, working at Wal-Mart) without permission is a violation of that vow.
To be fair that censure bordered on the obscure. I can understand the political reasons for trying to mince words...but...well...there's that whole Jesus in the temple thing.
But the post is drifting off topic and I'm at fault. The point is succession is one of the Roman Church's stronger points. I'm not at this point willing to dispute the claim. The special claim of Peter's See raises a different set of disputes but succession in and of itself shouldn't be controversial.
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BettyBoopToo
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Posted: Sun Nov 19th, 2006 08:57 pm |
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gkchesterton wrote: cajunrick wrote: After some problems a couple of decades ago, especially in Latin America but also in other countries, priests were forbidden to seek political office without special permission. The priest in question did not seek permission to run, so he was censured for it. I don't think the consequences were too severe. Priests take a vow of obedience, and participating in political life (or, for that matter, working at Wal-Mart) without permission is a violation of that vow.
To be fair that censure bordered on the obscure. I can understand the political reasons for trying to mince words...but...well...there's that whole Jesus in the temple thing.
But the post is drifting off topic and I'm at fault . The point is succession is one of the Roman Church's stronger points. I'm not at this point willing to dispute the claim. The special claim of Peter's See raises a different set of disputes but succession in and of itself shouldn't be controversial.
I apologize, I did not mean to interrupt. I have to admit, I did not look at the original post.
God Bless
Betty
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"Whenever anything disagreeable or displeasing happens to you, remember Christ crucified and be silent."
St. John of the Cross
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RCWarrior
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Posted: Tue Mar 20th, 2007 10:09 pm |
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Steven Barrett wrote: This is a Protestant nation. Always has been and perhaps will always be, no matter how "secular" it appears to be in the legal sense. Because of the heavily Protestant, Enlightenment (read: Masonic) influences on the founding fathers, individualism found a real home here.
[code][/code]
Because of this, we have strong individualistic and localistic streaks, especially when it comes to religious affairs. The local church, the individual Christian, etc., have always been given the benefit of the doubt over the more communal Catholic approach towards discerning man's proper role in society. (No wonder Catholics still have to "prove" their "loyalty.") When it comes to the most important (read: matters of faith and morality, which cover a lot of ground) issues, loyal Catholics would rather trust their Magisterium, be it located in Rome or wherever. (Actually the Magisterium is as close as the nearest diocesan chancery!) We have good reason to trust the Magisterium as our Supreme Court of final resort over our national Supreme Court. (Even the presence of a Catholic, Roger B. Taney, for example does not guarantee a truly moral rendering of judgment. Remember Dred Scott?)
The Pope and the Church's Magisterium, alone. is guaranteed to be infallible by no less than the Creator. Governments and all other churches (not in-communion with the Holy See) are created by men, however. The Church has made mistakes; but she has never claimed impeccability.
As for me, I'd rather place my ultimate loyalty in God's only True governing body on earth, the Catholic Magisterium, over any governmental body, no matter how relatively superior (i.e.. the United States of America).
"Dissenting" Catholics can be best described as "American Catholics" as opposed to Catholics who happen to hold American citizenship. They resemble their Protestant and individualistic American cousins in almost every area of life. They put more emphasis on the "my(s)" of life over the "we(s)." This kind of thinking is fine for a prosperous period, but it bodes ill for times of war and economic distress. It also bodes ill when the very basic indicators of human dignity are up for grabs as they were during the Ante-Bellum years and our recent disputes over abortion, euthanasia and embryonic stem-cell research.
With respects to a famous Protestant revolutionary, Patrick Henry, "If this be treason, let me make the most of it." This is not a Protestant nation. The Catholic faith is the largest growing religion in the world. There are 150 million converts just in the U.S. alone, and 100 million in Africa every year. there are 1.6 Billion Catholics, only Muslim follow behind.
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I know God won't give me anything I can't handle; I just wish he didn't trust me so much---Mother Teresa
If you invoke The Blessed Virgin when you are tempted, she will come at once to your help, and Satan will leave you----St. John Vianney
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RCWarrior
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Posted: Tue Mar 20th, 2007 10:18 pm |
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Deacon Harry Prestwood wrote: Dear Friends:
I have a friend who is not Catholic but is very open to learn about the Church. He says that if the Church can prove Apostolic Succesion he would be compelled to take a cerious look at the Church. Most every thing I have told him concerning the Church he says he has no problem with but needs to know from this proof the truth of the Church. Please help.
Pax-tecum
Deacon Hary Prestwood St. Peter 67 St. Linus 67-76 St. Anacletus I 76-88 St. cement I 88-97 St. Evaristus 97-105 St. Alexander I 105-115 St. Sixtus I 115-125 St. Telesphorus 125-36 St. Hyginus 136-40 St. Pius I 140-55 St. Anictus 155-66 St. Soter 166-75 St. Eleuterius 175-89 St. Victor I 189-99 St. Zephyrinus 199-217 St. Callistus I 217-22 St. Urban I 222-30 St. Pontian 230-35 I can go on and on with the 265 popes and the unbroken succession we have. Imagine, an unbroken link. Noone else can make that claim. All the way from St. Peter himself
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I know God won't give me anything I can't handle; I just wish he didn't trust me so much---Mother Teresa
If you invoke The Blessed Virgin when you are tempted, she will come at once to your help, and Satan will leave you----St. John Vianney
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David W. Emery
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Posted: Tue Mar 20th, 2007 11:47 pm |
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RCWarrior wrote:There are 150 million converts just in the U.S. alone.… There are 1.6 Billion Catholics [in the world].
Given that the total number of Catholics in the US is still below 70 million as of last year, 150 million seems quite a leap. The figures I recall seeing are a total of 150,000 (thousand, not million) new Catholics per year, including both infant baptisms and converts. You still have to subtract out the number of deaths and other departures to arrive at the change figure.
The total number of Catholics in the world as of two years ago (the latest verified numbers) is a bit under 1.2 billion. But to compare the 1.1 billion Muslims to that figure is a misleading because it doesn’t break the Muslims down according to their various sects, whereas the Catholic Church is a single entity and doesn’t include the Orthodox and the Protestants.
I’m not criticizing your effort, Stefany, just trying to make the figures add up.
David
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RCWarrior
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Posted: Wed Mar 21st, 2007 08:46 am |
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David W. Emery wrote: RCWarrior wrote:There are 150 million converts just in the U.S. alone.… There are 1.6 Billion Catholics [in the world].
Given that the total number of Catholics in the US is still below 70 million as of last year, 150 million seems quite a leap. The figures I recall seeing are a total of 150,000 (thousand, not million) new Catholics per year, including both infant baptisms and converts. You still have to subtract out the number of deaths and other departures to arrive at the change figure.
The total number of Catholics in the world as of two years ago (the latest verified numbers) is a bit under 1.2 billion. But to compare the 1.1 billion Muslims to that figure is a misleading because it doesn’t break the Muslims down according to their various sects, whereas the Catholic Church is a single entity and doesn’t include the Orthodox and the Protestants.
I’m not criticizing your effort, Stefany, just trying to make the figures add up.
David Fine with me Mr. Emery, but you are wrong...check out the christian Sourcebook for further information. And the number stands at 1.6 billion. And there are 150 MILLION converts each year in the U.S. alone. Just as I said. Sorry, but you are wrong. Not including Africa. I am not going to argue here as I have my facts correct.
____________________
I know God won't give me anything I can't handle; I just wish he didn't trust me so much---Mother Teresa
If you invoke The Blessed Virgin when you are tempted, she will come at once to your help, and Satan will leave you----St. John Vianney
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RCWarrior
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Posted: Wed Mar 21st, 2007 08:47 am |
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| Furthermore Mr. Emery, this doesn't include Protestants nor anyone else. I said CATHOLIC.
____________________
I know God won't give me anything I can't handle; I just wish he didn't trust me so much---Mother Teresa
If you invoke The Blessed Virgin when you are tempted, she will come at once to your help, and Satan will leave you----St. John Vianney
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CajunRick
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Posted: Wed Mar 21st, 2007 10:01 am |
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RCWarrior wrote: Fine with me Mr. Emery, but you are wrong...check out the christian Sourcebook for further information. And the number stands at 1.6 billion. And there are 150 MILLION converts each year in the U.S. alone. Just as I said.
Stefany, that would mean half uf the U.S. population becomes Catholic each year, which is not logical since there aren't that many Catholics in the entire U.S., at least not that the U.S. bishops know about. If there are 150 million converts to Catholicism each year, the entire population would be Catholic (every man, woman, and child) in just over two years. And once everyone was Catholic (which would have happened since the 2004 Presidential election) there would be no one left to convert.
I'm not sure what the Christian Sourcebook is, but I was a math major in college, and the numbers don't add up. I know for a fact that there are people who did not become Catholic since the 2004 Presidential election (I happen to be one of them, as I have been Catholic since my birth).
According to the U.S. Census Bureau's Population Clock, the population of the U.S. as of this morning is 301,426,996, and increases by one person each 12 seconds. That means the population increases each year by 2,628,000.
The numbers just don't add up.
The 1.6 billion number doesn't match statistics released by the Vatican either, although I have seen that number elsewhere.
____________________
Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
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Ali
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Posted: Wed Mar 21st, 2007 10:02 am |
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RCWarrior wroteFine with me Mr. Emery, but you are wrong...check out the christian Sourcebook for further information. And the number stands at 1.6 billion. And there are 150 MILLION converts each year in the U.S. alone. Just as I said. Sorry, but you are wrong. Not including Africa. I am not going to argue here as I have my facts correct.
Gosh, that sounds a bit snotty, to me. Can you post a link for your figures? I tried to google and only found this
Quote:
ABC News last week did a national news report on the numbers of converts joining the Catholic Church this Easter from all over the United States. That number, ABC estimated, is about 150,000.
T h e K e n n e d y Directory, the official publication of the U n ited State s Catholic Church, indicates that the number is a bit bigger than that. According to last year’s directory, the number of Catholic converts in the United States was 163, 560. The number of infant Baptisms was over a million (1,005,490).
Our Cathedral Parish this year saw 32 new Catholics enter the church; last year we had
50 converts. On average, some 1,600 converts join the church throughout the Diocese of Sacramento each year (last year it was 1,678). This year’s diocesan figures are not yet available.
Catholics form the largest denomination of any religion in the United States at 63 million.
Former Catholics form the second largest religious group, at about 18 million. The next biggest group is Southern Baptists, with 15 million. /quote
Taken from this website, figures are from 2004
http://www.cathedralsacramento.org/bulletins/2004/2ND_SUN_EASTER_2004.pdf
I'm not as familiar with stuff, but I also could not google and find anything substantial on Christian Sourcebook. {shrug}
What we have to say is important, but it's also important to remember *how* we say it.
Ali
PS -- I apologize if the format of this post is weird, espeically with that long link in there. I'm not the best at that kind of thing.
Last edited on Wed Mar 21st, 2007 10:05 am by Ali
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JasPax
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Posted: Wed Mar 21st, 2007 01:29 pm |
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Hi Stephany,
I really like your statistics (smiling). This means that my sweet Southern Baptist sister is actually Catholic. Now I wonder why my SB Deacon in Charge of Everything and Everybody Bro. in Law rolls his eyes whenever the word Catholic is mentioned in his presence, since he must be Catholic also. (still smiling!)
I think you must have read someone's misprint. Probably 150,000 was given three too many zeros.
I like your user name! We need more RC Warriors.
God's Peace.
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James
"Abide in me, and I in you..." John 15:4
"He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him." John 6:56
RSV-2CE
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RCWarrior
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Posted: Wed Mar 21st, 2007 07:57 pm |
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Well Ali, you would find it snotty as you are not yet a Catholic...anyway thank you Jaspax, I just tell it like it is. Still sticking with my numbers.
Let's have a lesson here:
How many people in the world?
6 Billion
How many are Christian?
1.9 Billion
(Since 1900 the number of Christians in the world has quadrupled, from 555 Million (32.2 percent) in 1900 to 1.9 Billion in 2000(31 percent) )
Christianity is the largest religion in the world. Close to 1/3 of all the people on the planet profess to be Christians.
Just to place this in perspective: Islam had 200 Million in 1900 (12.3%) and 1.2 Billion (19.6) now. Today Hinduism 811 Million, Buddhism 60 Million, Sikhism 23 Million, and Judaism 14 Million (World christian Encyclopedia June 2001).
Now, how many of these "Christians" do you think are Roman Catholic?
1 Billion 30 Million.
The Roman Catholic church is the LARGEST BODY of Christians on earth. More than one out of every six people ON THE PLANET is Roman Catholic.
Today there are 480 Million Protestants.
Get it?
____________________
I know God won't give me anything I can't handle; I just wish he didn't trust me so much---Mother Teresa
If you invoke The Blessed Virgin when you are tempted, she will come at once to your help, and Satan will leave you----St. John Vianney
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CajunRick
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Posted: Wed Mar 21st, 2007 11:30 pm |
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RCWarrior wrote: Well Ali, you would find it snotty as you are not yet a Catholic...
I don't think it's a matter of who is Catholic and who isn't.
No one is questioning the numbers you cited in your most recent post. I might quibble with details, but the numbers are close enough that they are in the reasonable neighborhood of the numbers used by the Church herself.
The number that doesn't make sense is 150 million converts to the Catholic faith in the United States each year. That means each year, one-half of the population of the United States joins the Catholic Church. The USCCB puts the number of Catholics in the US at around 70 million, so you're saying that the number of Catholics in the United States more than tripled in a single year, going from 70 million to 220 million.
Since the U.S. population has just gone over 300 million, that means there are only 80 million Americans who are not Catholic (300 million - 220 million). If 150 million more convert, there are now 370 million Catholics in the United States, or 70 million more than the total population. The number of Catholics has quintupled and now exceeds the total population by more than 20%, meaning that 120% of the people in America are Catholic.
Obviously, there can't be more Catholics in the United States than there are people, unless we're baptizing pets these days.
____________________
Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
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RCWarrior
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Posted: Thu Mar 22nd, 2007 08:56 am |
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It is what is is. The numbers also come from The National Catholic Register Newspaper in which I subscribe to.
I really don't enjoy my fellow Catholics trying to say my figures are wrong. No true Catholic would even argue the point, let alone dicepher it.
Perhaps there are more Catholics than you think??
____________________
I know God won't give me anything I can't handle; I just wish he didn't trust me so much---Mother Teresa
If you invoke The Blessed Virgin when you are tempted, she will come at once to your help, and Satan will leave you----St. John Vianney
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RCWarrior
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Posted: Thu Mar 22nd, 2007 09:00 am |
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cajunrick wrote: RCWarrior wrote: Well Ali, you would find it snotty as you are not yet a Catholic...
I don't think it's a matter of who is Catholic and who isn't.
No one is questioning the numbers you cited in your most recent post. I might quibble with details, but the numbers are close enough that they are in the reasonable neighborhood of the numbers used by the Church herself.
The number that doesn't make sense is 150 million converts to the Catholic faith in the United States each year. That means each year, one-half of the population of the United States joins the Catholic Church. The USCCB puts the number of Catholics in the US at around 70 million, so you're saying that the number of Catholics in the United States more than tripled in a single year, going from 70 million to 220 million.
Since the U.S. population has just gone over 300 million, that means there are only 80 million Americans who are not Catholic (300 million - 220 million). If 150 million more convert, there are now 370 million Catholics in the United States, or 70 million more than the total population. The number of Catholics has quintupled and now exceeds the total population by more than 20%, meaning that 120% of the people in America are Catholic.
Obviously, there can't be more Catholics in the United States than there are people, unless we're baptizing pets these days.
And yes, it is a matter of being Catholic or not. When Catholic, you are educated in your faith, when not, there are lies and deceitfulness in how people claim to get their information and where they get it from. If you do not know this as a Catholic, in which we are the biggest people of persecutions in the world, I don't know what else to say.
____________________
I know God won't give me anything I can't handle; I just wish he didn't trust me so much---Mother Teresa
If you invoke The Blessed Virgin when you are tempted, she will come at once to your help, and Satan will leave you----St. John Vianney
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Ali
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Posted: Thu Mar 22nd, 2007 09:17 am |
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RCWarrior wrote: Well Ali, you would find it snotty as you are not yet a Catholic...Get it?
Did you read the last line of my post to you? Here it is again, cause I think you missed it -- What we have to say is important, but it's also important to remember *how* we say it.
You might have an awesome message in your post but it gets overlooked because of the tone in which you post.
I did ask you to post sources or at least links for your numbers as well. Up to now, you have not done so. I would venture to say any one of us could find links to back up whatever numbers or facts we want, the internet is a wonderful font of information. Especially since I'm not Catholic yet, as you were so kind to point out, I tend to be a bit more cynical and *not* take other people's facts on face value. So, yes, source info is important.
My posts are usually pretty straightforward, as I am not one to waste words. There is nothing for me add to this thread from this point on. Although one would be nice, I do not expect an apology from you. Those were rather hurtful words after all. Sort of like since I'm not yet fully Catholic, I don't fully count. Keep in mind 2 Timothy 2:24, 25 And the Lord's servant must not be quarrelsome but kindly to every one, an apt teacher, forbearing, correcting his opponents with gentleness. God may perhaps grant that they will repent and come to know the truth.
Ali
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RCWarrior
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Posted: Thu Mar 22nd, 2007 10:38 am |
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I have looked up the facts again and I do apologize. There are 150 THOUSAND converts in the U.S. alone and 1 MILLION each year in Africa alone. I knew I saw the million there somewhere. Sorry. That still is a lot of Catholics.
And Ali, you took it the wrong way in which you seem to think you don't count. That is ridiculous. Non-Catholics tend to get their information from the wrong resources. That is a fact. I deal with it all the time.
http://www.Catholic.com has these figures also
Christian Sourcebook
National Catholic Register Newspaper.
These all had these figures, and these are just two continents.
I can't help it if you can't find it.
____________________
I know God won't give me anything I can't handle; I just wish he didn't trust me so much---Mother Teresa
If you invoke The Blessed Virgin when you are tempted, she will come at once to your help, and Satan will leave you----St. John Vianney
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RCWarrior
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Posted: Thu Mar 22nd, 2007 10:40 am |
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Ali wrote: RCWarrior wrote: Well Ali, you would find it snotty as you are not yet a Catholic...Get it?
Did you read the last line of my post to you? Here it is again, cause I think you missed it -- What we have to say is important, but it's also important to remember *how* we say it.
You might have an awesome message in your post but it gets overlooked because of the tone in which you post.
I did ask you to post sources or at least links for your numbers as well. Up to now, you have not done so. I would venture to say any one of us could find links to back up whatever numbers or facts we want, the internet is a wonderful font of information. Especially since I'm not Catholic yet, as you were so kind to point out, I tend to be a bit more cynical and *not* take other people's facts on face value. So, yes, source info is important.
My posts are usually pretty straightforward, as I am not one to waste words. There is nothing for me add to this thread from this point on. Although one would be nice, I do not expect an apology from you. Those were rather hurtful words after all. Sort of like since I'm not yet fully Catholic, I don't fully count. Keep in mind 2 Timothy 2:24, 25 And the Lord's servant must not be quarrelsome but kindly to every one, an apt teacher, forbearing, correcting his opponents with gentleness. God may perhaps grant that they will repent and come to know the
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